Shootings and explosions in Paris this evening

[Prufrock]

Reports that the passport is fake. As you say, sounds sus.

[thebish]

Reports that the passport is fake. As you say, sounds sus.

wasn't there a similar sus discovery of a conveniently intact and foreign passport found in the whole 9/11 aftermath? or am I imagining it?

[Lord Kangana]

Yeah, in the obliterated wreckage of the towers they found one of the perpetrators passports. Which miraculously survived the crash, which smashed the plane to atoms according to experts, and ignited fires that could melt steel. I don't even want to consider the idea that their Government was involved, it's just too huge an idea. But f*ck me lads, pull the other one.

[William the White]

He blamed the victims of 9/11 for being complicit in the crimes of the West that led to the attacks. I can't find the article (because googling "Noam Chomskey 9/11" brings you a world of fruitloops and nutjob 9/11 truthers who think he sold them out by deciding he did think bin Laden was behind it after all) but I remember reading it. Everytime one of these attacks happens he's first in the queue to write an op-ed piece about how it's not really their fault and it's actually western democracy (which he thinks is a synonym for "Western Capitalism") that is to blame for terrorism.

His talent as a linguist and a writer isn't enough to mitigate his jeb-endedness.

Well, I've now read several of Chomsky's articles on 9/11 starting with the one published on 9/12 and can find no trace of sympathy for the perpetrators but plenty of evidence of his denunciation of them and their actions, or any attempt to blame the victims of 9/11 for their fate, and a consistent pouring out of scorn on the 'truthers'.

I have found a polemical exchange between Chomsky and Hitchens and I wondered if this was your real source? Since I know you share with me an enthusiasm for Hitchens work (one that in my case diminished rapidly when he supported the invasion of Iraq). It is a sharp exchange and we (you and I) might find ourselves on different sides in this debate or might not (I can't remember if you support the invasion, but I thought not).

However, I think your summary of Chomsky's position is not sustainable if this is, in fact, your source.

http://humanities.psydeshow.org/political/chomsky-1.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In my view Chomsky is a genuine public intellectual, whose dissenting ideas offer a vitally necessary critique of American power.

You don't have to agree with him to support that view. You may remember I described Hitch as 'our Orwell' - I'm not the only one to express that. I'll always regret his conversion to Bush's politics and view this polemic with the thought of how enthusiastically recent converts often denounce those who they once revered - and so denounce the 'bad self' that once was them.

[Montreal Wanderer]

He blamed the victims of 9/11 for being complicit in the crimes of the West that led to the attacks. I can't find the article (because googling "Noam Chomskey 9/11" brings you a world of fruitloops and nutjob 9/11 truthers who think he sold them out by deciding he did think bin Laden was behind it after all) but I remember reading it. Everytime one of these attacks happens he's first in the queue to write an op-ed piece about how it's not really their fault and it's actually western democracy (which he thinks is a synonym for "Western Capitalism") that is to blame for terrorism.

His talent as a linguist and a writer isn't enough to mitigate his jeb-endedness.

Well, I've now read several of Chomsky's articles on 9/11 starting with the one published on 9/12 and can find no trace of sympathy for the perpetrators but plenty of evidence of his denunciation of them and their actions, or any attempt to blame the victims of 9/11 for their fate, and a consistent pouring out of scorn on the 'truthers'.

I have found a polemical exchange between Chomsky and Hitchens and I wondered if this was your real source? Since I know you share with me an enthusiasm for Hitchens work (one that in my case diminished rapidly when he supported the invasion of Iraq). It is a sharp exchange and we (you and I) might find ourselves on different sides in this debate or might not (I can't remember if you support the invasion, but I thought not).

However, I think your summary of Chomsky's position is not sustainable if this is, in fact, your source.

http://humanities.psydeshow.org/political/chomsky-1.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In my view Chomsky is a genuine public intellectual, whose dissenting ideas offer a vitally necessary critique of American power.

You don't have to agree with him to support that view. You may remember I described Hitch as 'our Orwell' - I'm not the only one to express that. I'll always regret his conversion to Bush's politics and view this polemic with the thought of how enthusiastically recent converts often denounce those who they once revered - and so denounce the 'bad self' that once was them.

I met Chomsky and had lunch with him when my university gave him an honorary degree in the late 1990s. We disagreed about the value of international human rights conventions and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. We kept up a correspondence on the issue for a few years by email, even past 9/11. I still do not agree with all he says as he is sometimes blinded by his anti-establishmentism (this may not be a word ). However, as far as I am aware, he always said 9/11 was a crime against humanity, disagreeing only with the American response. He also may have felt American foreign policy had some responsibility for 9/11 but did not suggest this justifies the perpetrators. All this IIRC.

[William the White]

He blamed the victims of 9/11 for being complicit in the crimes of the West that led to the attacks. I can't find the article (because googling "Noam Chomskey 9/11" brings you a world of fruitloops and nutjob 9/11 truthers who think he sold them out by deciding he did think bin Laden was behind it after all) but I remember reading it. Everytime one of these attacks happens he's first in the queue to write an op-ed piece about how it's not really their fault and it's actually western democracy (which he thinks is a synonym for "Western Capitalism") that is to blame for terrorism.

His talent as a linguist and a writer isn't enough to mitigate his jeb-endedness.

Well, I've now read several of Chomsky's articles on 9/11 starting with the one published on 9/12 and can find no trace of sympathy for the perpetrators but plenty of evidence of his denunciation of them and their actions, or any attempt to blame the victims of 9/11 for their fate, and a consistent pouring out of scorn on the 'truthers'.

I have found a polemical exchange between Chomsky and Hitchens and I wondered if this was your real source? Since I know you share with me an enthusiasm for Hitchens work (one that in my case diminished rapidly when he supported the invasion of Iraq). It is a sharp exchange and we (you and I) might find ourselves on different sides in this debate or might not (I can't remember if you support the invasion, but I thought not).

However, I think your summary of Chomsky's position is not sustainable if this is, in fact, your source.

http://humanities.psydeshow.org/political/chomsky-1.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In my view Chomsky is a genuine public intellectual, whose dissenting ideas offer a vitally necessary critique of American power.

You don't have to agree with him to support that view. You may remember I described Hitch as 'our Orwell' - I'm not the only one to express that. I'll always regret his conversion to Bush's politics and view this polemic with the thought of how enthusiastically recent converts often denounce those who they once revered - and so denounce the 'bad self' that once was them.

I met Chomsky and had lunch with him when my university gave him an honorary degree in the late 1990s. We disagreed about the value of international human rights conventions and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. We kept up a correspondence on the issue for a few years by email, even past 9/11. I still do not agree with all he says as he is sometimes blinded by his anti-establishmentism (this may not be a word ). However, as far as I am aware, he always said 9/11 was a crime against humanity, disagreeing only with the American response. He also may have felt American foreign policy had some responsibility for 9/11 but did not suggest this justifies the perpetrators. All this IIRC.

His published work would confirm your personal memories.

I read my first Chomsky article in 1972 when i was coming up to my finals in history, with a specialism in the Spanish Civil War. The standard text on this subject was 'The Spanish Republic and Civil War, 1931-39' by an American historian, Gabriel Jackson. it's a good book, within the liberal canon, and a useful one for history students.

Chomsky, in a lengthy essay 'American Power and the New Mandarins' analysed the liberal consensus in the intelligentsia of the US on the Vietnam war in a withering condemnation, and then proceeded to prove his point by an outstanding critique of Jackson's book. His thesis was the liberal viewpoint determines the subject of history and thus creates it in a form of false consciousness. Jackson's book manages to write a prize winning account of the events with only a cursory and hostile glance at the profound revolution that actually contained the central issue of the conflict. This work affected my take on understanding history from then until now.

I write this and immediately want to read it again and wonder if somewhere I still have my copy.

EDIT: I no longer have my copy, it seems - but the essay I was referring to in American Power and the New Mandarins is the one entitled Objectivity and Liberal Scholarship. I thought it brilliant when i was 22. And might now.

[Hoboh]

Reports that the passport is fake. As you say, sounds sus.

Reports are more than one of them came via migrant cruises and a couple of others were the famous volunteer returnees from Syria, you know the ones, cannot revoke their citizenship because of some wet behind the ears legislation from the bastion of all things good, the UN.

[thebish]

Reports that the passport is fake. As you say, sounds sus.

Reports are more than one of them came via migrant cruises and a couple of others were the famous volunteer returnees from Syria, you know the ones, cannot revoke their citizenship because of some wet behind the ears legislation from the bastion of all things good, the UN.

I reckon it is a good idea to take these various "reports" with a bit of a pinch of salt... "reports" also suggest some were french nationals... other "reports" suggest that France "exports" more citizens to fight in the ISIS ranks than any other western nation...

as I said - use the salt...

[Hoboh]

Reports that the passport is fake. As you say, sounds sus.

Reports are more than one of them came via migrant cruises and a couple of others were the famous volunteer returnees from Syria, you know the ones, cannot revoke their citizenship because of some wet behind the ears legislation from the bastion of all things good, the UN.

I reckon it is a good idea to take these various "reports" with a bit of a pinch of salt... "reports" also suggest some were french nationals... other "reports" suggest that France "exports" more citizens to fight in the ISIS ranks than any other western nation...

as I said - use the salt...

Oh I am even though I dislike salt.
It's Belgium actually, home to more than one terrorist organisation.

[Worthy4England]

^^ Wouldn't revoking their citizenship make them technically stateless (and therefore make them genuine refugees). You never did answer how we tell the ones that might be IS sympathizers from the rest? Or how any other country would do so (such as Greece or Turkey). Is your notion that actually we build a fence round Syria and just lock them all in?

[bobo the clown]

The false passport is likely to be one of the apparently easily accessed forgeries so that non-Syrians can claim to be Syrians on arrival into Angela's folly.

Why have it on him ? ... Good question .... to allow free travel between Belgium & France if he's stopped, maybe ?

The very quick to arise conspiracy theory idea that the French authorities planted it there so to discredit the open flood-doors policy is a bit far fetched. It doesn't need discrediting ffs.

[Hoboh]

^^ Wouldn't revoking their citizenship make them technically stateless (and therefore make them genuine refugees). You never did answer how we tell the ones that might be IS sympathizers from the rest? Or how any other country would do so (such as Greece or Turkey). Is your notion that actually we build a fence round Syria and just lock them all in?

My suggestion is the UK government for once seem to have got the right idea, screening them before acceptance.
The wandering migrants should be turned back from Europe's shores, en masse!
A fence? nope, I'd start by rolling Raqqa flat!

[jonnycooper]

Minutes silence at 11am today folks!! Please observe.

[Hoboh]

The French interior minister, Bernard Cazeneuve, has said 104 people have been placed under house arrest and 168 raids took place last night. Twenty-three people have been arrested, he added.
Cazeneuve also confirmed that six people have been stripped of their citizenship since the beginning of the year.

Hang on, I thought you couldn't do that!
Or is that due to our legal leeches?

[Worthy4England]

^^ Wouldn't revoking their citizenship make them technically stateless (and therefore make them genuine refugees). You never did answer how we tell the ones that might be IS sympathizers from the rest? Or how any other country would do so (such as Greece or Turkey). Is your notion that actually we build a fence round Syria and just lock them all in?

My suggestion is the UK government for once seem to have got the right idea, screening them before acceptance.
The wandering migrants should be turned back from Europe's shores, en masse!
A fence? nope, I'd start by rolling Raqqa flat!

But most of the bombers seem to be Belgian or French? Let those jet fighters roll...

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

The French interior minister, Bernard Cazeneuve, has said 104 people have been placed under house arrest and 168 raids took place last night. Twenty-three people have been arrested, he added.
Cazeneuve also confirmed that six people have been stripped of their citizenship since the beginning of the year.

Hang on, I thought you couldn't do that!
Or is that due to our legal leeches?

If they hold dual citizenship then you wouldn't be being made stateless, which is the illegal bit...not that that stops numerous countries from doing it - see Bahrain as an example.

As for the bombing Raaqa flat. I'm taking a wild guess here, but I'm suspecting that a reasonable number living there are not doing so because they have a choice, nor are sympathetic to the ISIS cause. I'm all for wiping the scumbags from the face of the planet, but less so the others...

[thebish]

The French interior minister, Bernard Cazeneuve, has said 104 people have been placed under house arrest and 168 raids took place last night. Twenty-three people have been arrested, he added.
Cazeneuve also confirmed that six people have been stripped of their citizenship since the beginning of the year.

Hang on, I thought you couldn't do that!
Or is that due to our legal leeches?

If they hold dual citizenship then you wouldn't be being made stateless, which is the illegal bit...not that that stops numerous countries from doing it - see Bahrain as an example.

As for the bombing Raaqa flat. I'm taking a wild guess here, but I'm suspecting that a reasonable number living there are not doing so because they have a choice, nor are sympathetic to the ISIS cause. I'm all for wiping the scumbags from the face of the planet, but less so the others...

it would be their fault if they were in the way of Hoboh's bombs... not that that's anything like terrorism at all... no...

[Worthy4England]

The French interior minister, Bernard Cazeneuve, has said 104 people have been placed under house arrest and 168 raids took place last night. Twenty-three people have been arrested, he added.
Cazeneuve also confirmed that six people have been stripped of their citizenship since the beginning of the year.

Hang on, I thought you couldn't do that!
Or is that due to our legal leeches?

If they hold dual citizenship then you wouldn't be being made stateless, which is the illegal bit...not that that stops numerous countries from doing it - see Bahrain as an example.

As for the bombing Raaqa flat. I'm taking a wild guess here, but I'm suspecting that a reasonable number living there are not doing so because they have a choice, nor are sympathetic to the ISIS cause. I'm all for wiping the scumbags from the face of the planet, but less so the others...

You're making this very complicated. Surely all the baddies are stood in one place?!

[William the White]

The French interior minister, Bernard Cazeneuve, has said 104 people have been placed under house arrest and 168 raids took place last night. Twenty-three people have been arrested, he added.
Cazeneuve also confirmed that six people have been stripped of their citizenship since the beginning of the year.

Hang on, I thought you couldn't do that!
Or is that due to our legal leeches?

If they hold dual citizenship then you wouldn't be being made stateless, which is the illegal bit...not that that stops numerous countries from doing it - see Bahrain as an example.

As for the bombing Raaqa flat. I'm taking a wild guess here, but I'm suspecting that a reasonable number living there are not doing so because they have a choice, nor are sympathetic to the ISIS cause. I'm all for wiping the scumbags from the face of the planet, but less so the others...

You're making this very complicated. Surely all the baddies are stood in one place?!

doesn't matter, we have intelligent bombs these days...

[Harry Genshaw]

This was my big worry, that to be seen to be doing something, anything, the French would level some Syrian town because it's an 'ISIS stronghold/centre of operations'. They would have known this prior to the Paris attacks. I wont shed any tears over any ISIS sympathiser being blown up but the last thing needed would be any more innocents killed