Manchester Arena

[Hoboh]

To be fair religion is a fairly easy vehicle to route this stuff through because it is underpinned by blind belief in deity and set of texts that cannot be proven. So from the get go, you have an audience willing to believe what they are told.

This is the point I was trying to make. Not that religion is all bad or should be banned etc, rather that to deal with religious extremism you have to look at the relationship between those two things. One clearly does have to with the other.

Bang on, just like when young we were told if we didn't go to church we were hell bound.

[TANGODANCER]

To be fair religion is a fairly easy vehicle to route this stuff through because it is underpinned by blind belief in deity and set of texts that cannot be proven. So from the get go, you have an audience willing to believe what they are told.

This is the point I was trying to make. Not that religion is all bad or should be banned etc, rather that to deal with religious extremism you have to look at the relationship between those two things. One clearly does have to with the other.

Bang on, just like when young we were told if we didn't go to church we were hell bound.

Yes, but it should be from choice not persecution. Father O'Reilly's wooden knuckle rapper ended at fourteen. This is the second millenium not Billy Smarticus's Circus for the masses, which is why it's so hard to believe some jihadist/Isis type entities are still behaving like like Salaudin rides again and still calling the west "Crusaders", a term that lost reality over 700 years ago . People belive in Klingons, Rastafarianism, Bhuddism and many other things in the name of religion. None of them, particularly Islam, preach raising armies to wipe out those who won't conform to their wishes. It's a pointless argument really , but which religion exactly preaches mindless violence or even that such will be rewarded in any way? The said texts all condemn wrong in any form and preach "love thy neighbour" type philosophy. The rest is the word of man, not that of God. Take away the peaceful and what are you left with, Sharia law and religious police to batter and stone the nonconformists? Which texts in which religion support that bit or even mention it?

The biggest worry, apart from so much gullibilty from fear, seems to be that Trumpism will garner enough of an audience willing to believe what they're told and start it all up again. It won 't be about religion then, believe me, much as anyone may claim.

[Prufrock]

I'm non-plussed at how people don't seem to recognise the straw-man they're building every time this comes up.

Religion is clearly a cause of terrorism. To argue otherwise is stupid.

I'd agree with any argument that said it isn't the only cause, that sometimes it's a secondary cause and sometimes it isn't a cause at all, that some terrorists aren't religious, and some people who aren't religious are terrorists, I'd agree that it's by no means the only standard religion should be judged by, and it's fecking cretinous to tar all people of one or any religion by the same brush or to conclude that anyone else bears responsibility simply by virtue of belief in the god of the same holy book. If you got rid of religion, you wouldn't get rid of terrorism. It's still a cause of terrorism, though.

When Boko Haram pull a bus over and shoot everyone who can't recite a verse of the Koran, or when those pathetic specimens shout "this is for Allah" before ploughing into pedestrians, it insults everyone's intelligence to claim it's nothing to do with religion. It's clearly too simple to just conclude "Islam" - there are a myriad of factors for each of these pathetic losers - but you also don't get to the explanation without it.

[Prufrock]

I met James McMullan, who was named today as one of the victims who died on Saturday, a couple of times. He used to go out with a friend of mine. Didn't know him well at all but he seemed a nice chap. Popped out for a cigarette on Saturday and that was that. It's a f*cked up, f*cked up world.

[Worthy4England]

To be fair religion is a fairly easy vehicle to route this stuff through because it is underpinned by blind belief in deity and set of texts that cannot be proven. So from the get go, you have an audience willing to believe what they are told.

This is the point I was trying to make. Not that religion is all bad or should be banned etc, rather that to deal with religious extremism you have to look at the relationship between those two things. One clearly does have to with the other.

Bang on, just like when young we were told if we didn't go to church we were hell bound.

You probably got brainwashed with Santa Clause, The Easter Bunny and the Toothfairy as well then at some time in your life, you were either told it was all hogwash or you made your own mind up about it. It's all about the intent.

[BWFC_Insane]

To be fair religion is a fairly easy vehicle to route this stuff through because it is underpinned by blind belief in deity and set of texts that cannot be proven. So from the get go, you have an audience willing to believe what they are told.

This is the point I was trying to make. Not that religion is all bad or should be banned etc, rather that to deal with religious extremism you have to look at the relationship between those two things. One clearly does have to with the other.

Bang on, just like when young we were told if we didn't go to church we were hell bound.

Yes, but it should be from choice not persecution. Father O'Reilly's wooden knuckle rapper ended at fourteen. This is the second millenium not Billy Smarticus's Circus for the masses, which is why it's so hard to believe some jihadist/Isis type entities are still behaving like like Salaudin rides again and still calling the west "Crusaders", a term that lost reality over 700 years ago . People belive in Klingons, Rastafarianism, Bhuddism and many other things in the name of religion. None of them, particularly Islam, preach raising armies to wipe out those who won't conform to their wishes. It's a pointless argument really , but which religion exactly preaches mindless violence or even that such will be rewarded in any way? The said texts all condemn wrong in any form and preach "love thy neighbour" type philosophy. The rest is the word of man, not that of God. Take away the peaceful and what are you left with, Sharia law and religious police to batter and stone the nonconformists? Which texts in which religion support that bit or even mention it?

The biggest worry, apart from so much gullibilty from fear, seems to be that Trumpism will garner enough of an audience willing to believe what they're told and start it all up again. It won 't be about religion then, believe me, much as anyone may claim.

There is plenty of violence preached in religious texts. All depends on interpretation, translation, versions and the like. And the problem is nobody can say any interpretation is wrong.....(they all are )

[bedwetter2]

I'm rather sorry that my statement caused such hand-wringing.

There are differences between religions. I'm sure we can all agree that the tenets of islam are somewhat different from those of the followers of the buddha.
In my opinion, what makes Islam stand out as both different and dangerous is that it is a closed and proselytising faith which will not accept the presence of any other religion (or lack of religion) in it's homelands - hence the hatred of anyone who will not convert and the wish to destroy as a result. A long 1400 year campaign of invasion, bloody conquest and occasional defeats which made them only more determined to take suppress more enlightened nations.

Someone said earlier that the Great and Little Satan are the ones really marked down for attack. Then how is it that the islamist terrorists are active on every continent apart from Antarctica and that they attack people in islam majority states such as Indonesia, the islam majority island in the Phillipines, Bangladesh Somalia, etc ?

[TANGODANCER]

I'm non-plussed at how people don't seem to recognise the straw-man they're building every time this comes up. Religion is clearly a cause of terrorism. To argue otherwise is stupid.

When Boko Haram pull a bus over and shoot everyone who can't recite a verse of the Koran, or when those pathetic specimens shout "this is for Allah" before ploughing into pedestrians, it insults everyone's intelligence to claim it's nothing to do with religion. It's clearly too simple to just conclude "Islam" - there are a myriad of factors for each of these pathetic losers - but you also don't get to the explanation without it.

Straw man, ah yes, that one. The need to inspire terror is the cause of terrorism, nothing else. Religion is just the excuse for its behavour. What would all those Bokum Haram chaps do if everybody could quote the Koran? Are those who plough into innocents really sane and sensible citizens motivated by religious belief? Really, or brain-washed clowns with their heads on back to front? Do Somali pirates shout religious names when boarding ships brandishing automatic rifles? Does any of the money (millions) in ransom go towards building mosques? Keep telling people often enough that religion is to blame for terrorism and you create a belief amongst the gullible just like the pope and the French king did back in history, except Jesus got the blame and not Mohamed back then. Convenient reasons for the desperate and uneducated to charge forth on the promise of riches and power, and at the sharp end of it somebody pulling the strings and using threats of heresy as motivation.

Every single day of my life I see the "explanation" for lunacy, crazy behaviour and wrong thinking ; it's people. Practical example from our civilised society: The Highway Code is the bible of road use; drivers take their tests based on it. Everyone knows it and professes that they follow the rules....Do they, all those God-fearing folk amongst them? 1780 people died in road accidents last year, a fair percentage probably from careless and selfish behaviour. I leave that one with you....Four local men went to prison for a very long time yesterday for threatening and cutting a pensioner with a machette; not a religious motive amongst them. Terrorism, yes.

Funny how thse who profess no belief in a Deity put forth the strongest arguments blaming religion...is it not? Religion, I will agree, can't be distanced from terrorism, the string pullers have seen to that. The truth might have been bent a little somewhere along the road to more than just Emmaus. Okay, that's me over and out.

Amen.

[Lord Kangana]

Just out of interest, genuine question, I don't know, did the guy leave a suicide note or make any claim that it was on behalf of Islam at all?

[Lord Kangana]

I mean the guy in Manchester.

[TANGODANCER]

Just out of interest, genuine question, I don't know, did the guy leave a suicide note or make any claim that it was on behalf of Islam at all?

Unclear. Good question. Doesn't seem to be much being said at all by anyone right now?

[Lord Kangana]

Clearly, making an explosive device and then strapping it to you with the intent of killing yourself and others is not generally the actions of a sound and reasonable mind, but I just wondered whether it was more politically motivated - regarding the situation in his home country of Libya. I mean, Peter Sutcliffe was a Catholic and a Yorkshireman, but I'm not holding those two against him.

Just doesn't seem to fit the MO of shouting 'Allah' and leaving a video, or whatever.

[Montreal Wanderer]

In my opinion, what makes Islam stand out as both different and dangerous is that it is a closed and proselytising faith which will not accept the presence of any other religion (or lack of religion) in it's homelands - hence the hatred of anyone who will not convert and the wish to destroy as a result. A long 1400 year campaign of invasion, bloody conquest and occasional defeats which made them only more determined to take suppress more enlightened nations.

I'm not sure it is fair to say this of Islam. Christians lived and thrived for centuries in the Ottoman Empire. Today Malaysia and Indonesia have Christian populations of around 10% of the total population, while Lebanon is close to 40%. It is true that the Copts in Egypt are being targeted but largely by followers of the Muslim brotherhood, who use religion for political ends. Indeed a Copt became Sec-Gen of the UN after serving in a high cabinet post in Egypt. So I don't think the generalization that Muslim countries don't tolerate those who won't convert is really sustainable, despite evidence of some atrocities from time to time.

[bedwetter2]

In my opinion, what makes Islam stand out as both different and dangerous is that it is a closed and proselytising faith which will not accept the presence of any other religion (or lack of religion) in it's homelands - hence the hatred of anyone who will not convert and the wish to destroy as a result. A long 1400 year campaign of invasion, bloody conquest and occasional defeats which made them only more determined to take suppress more enlightened nations.

I'm not sure it is fair to say this of Islam. Christians lived and thrived for centuries in the Ottoman Empire. Today Malaysia and Indonesia have Christian populations of around 10% of the total population, while Lebanon is close to 40%. It is true that the Copts in Egypt are being targeted but largely by followers of the Muslim brotherhood, who use religion for political ends. Indeed a Copt became Sec-Gen of the UN after serving in a high cabinet post in Egypt. So I don't think the generalization that Muslim countries don't tolerate those who won't convert is really sustainable, despite evidence of some atrocities from time to time.

When Islam invaded and conquered Byzantium finally after 700 years of trying they weren't so charitable then Monty. I did qualify my view by saying "their homelands" which would exclude Lebanon and the far east. Nevertheless, there is a major insurgency going on there which has been problematic since the early 20th century.

Regarding the Copts, I believe they are under great pressure from those bloodthirsty fcukers in Isis. The latest massacres were certainly carried out by them and I do have some relevant experience from north Africa. The Copts, where they can, are leaving Egypt in droves. It may well be that the Muslim brotherhood in many ways act as the "political wing" of the extremists. The problem is not with the educated and wealthy components in the government of Egypt. The problem is the runaway population growth in nearly all Muslim countries which causes the grinding poverty of the majority and inspires far-fetched interpretations of their holy book. Solve the population problem and you are part way there. A close member of my family also had experience of the problem in Egypt as he was responsible for negotiating with government ministers to win contracts for his company. Whilst there he was visiting a location a little out in the desert which he had been assured was perfectly safe. The following day, after he had gone back to Cairo with his minders, Isis visited and slaughtered 6 workers who were on site effectively warning others to have nothing to do with foreigners. Most of these things do not get reported in the western press.

I worked in north Africa for a time and the casual cruelty and willingness to blame anyone but themselves has always been present. They have got dissembling down to a fine art.

[TANGODANCER]

When Islam invaded and conquered Byzantium finally after 700 years of trying they weren't so charitable then Monty. I did qualify my view by saying "their homelands" which would exclude Lebanon and the far east. Nevertheless, there is a major insurgency going on there which has been problematic since the early 20th century.

Regarding the Copts, I believe they are under great pressure from those bloodthirsty fcukers in Isis. The latest massacres were certainly carried out by them and I do have some relevant experience from north Africa. The Copts, where they can, are leaving Egypt in droves. It may well be that the Muslim brotherhood in many ways act as the "political wing" of the extremists. The problem is not with the educated and wealthy components in the government of Egypt. The problem is the runaway population growth in nearly all Muslim countries which causes the grinding poverty of the majority and inspires far-fetched interpretations of their holy book. Solve the population problem and you are part way there. A close member of my family also had experience of the problem in Egypt as he was responsible for negotiating with government ministers to win contracts for his company. Whilst there he was visiting a location a little out in the desert which he had been assured was perfectly safe. The following day, after he had gone back to Cairo with his minders, Isis visited and slaughtered 6 workers who were on site effectively warning others to have nothing to do with foreigners. Most of these things do not get reported in the western press.

I worked in north Africa for a time and the casual cruelty and willingness to blame anyone but themselves has always been present. They have got dissembling down to a fine art.

Interesting, if frightening reading, BW. To me, and surely to any sane person, all these actions speak of mentally unbalanced and uneducated savages whose only "religion" seems to be that of violence and murder and whose only understandings are deliberate mis-reading of scriptures using fear of the unknown as unprovable lies. How many of those multi-thousands out in places away from cities can even read at all? This is why I claim string-pullers in positions of power have made the masses into terrified puppets by lies and extreme cruelty. To reiterate; It just can't be denied that religion is being used as the battle standard by the immans, but a religion that is applied by automatic rifles, beating, stonings and murder on its very devotees is no religion at all. How easy is it to apply was almost shown from childhood. I went to St Josephs Catholic school( "The Catlics"). Only a hundred yards away was Brownlow Fold, home of the "Proddy dogs". We didn't even know what any of it meant, yet a rivalry was struck up anyway because of the difference, ie religion getting the blame unjustly...just as it is now . Rangers and Celtic, Repubic and Protestant,even the position of a chair in the sunshine on a roof in Jerusalem leading to killing, and, as you say, willingness for anyone to blame anyone but themselves, hence my claim that religion has nothing to do with any of it. Man is the villain, religion just the victim.

[Prufrock]

What a load of bollocks.

[Worthy4England]

I'm surprised we got this far without anyone mentioning foreign policy...and that all the conversation seems to talk to "religion"...it's a long way from operating in a vacuum (as I think Pru mentioned in an earlier post)

[Lord Kangana]

Are you suggesting our foreign policy is entirely without blemish?

I mean, and I realise this makes me some kind of sympathiser to the simpletons out there, but the IRA weren't bombing us because we just happened to be the closest island with a B in it's name. Whether you agree with their stated aims or not you can't change elements of historical causality.

Either that, or we can just pretend it's because nobody likes us.

[boltonboris]

To Summarise

we're all fecked. Everyones a load of c*nts

[Worthy4England]

Are you suggesting our foreign policy is entirely without blemish?

I suspect it's not...just a sneaking suspicion.