European Second Referendum

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Jesus fxcking Christ... Mr Logic strikes back, Not.
So we leave the EU with No Deal on March 28th, and how does the EU's insistence on a backstop help anybody at that point???????????????????

If there is no deal then the likelihood is that the UK will contravene the GFA. It isn't at that point the EU's issue as we haven't made a deal and they will do whatever they deem fit to manage their borders appropriately.

The reality is that should it be "no deal" a deal will have to be struck on the Irish border but such a deal under WTO rules will have to apply everywhere. Something that was a May red line.

Our BATNA is the same as the EU's but infinitely worse!

Bullshit.
We will not be abrogating the Good Friday agreement. We will not be building borders. Ireland might, at the insistence of the EU. That is the EU and Ireland's problem... *Whoosh*

Let's explore this a little further... Who is it who will turn around and tell us to stick a hard border between Ballymog and the lane to Ballymug? Brazil? some man from Del Monte?

Ok - under a no deal scenario - whereby we trade with the EU and the RoW under WTO rules - how do you propose the Irish border is managed in accordance with the GFA AND in accordance with WTO non-discrimination rules?

Nobody will force us under WTO to build a hard border. What we CANNOT do is have one rule for some goods entering one part of the country and another rule for another set. So either everything is open or nothing is.

You've just answered your own question, and coincidentally dismissed the huge amounts of bullshit surrounding this.
To quote yourself: "NOBODY WILL FORCE US UNDER WORLD TRADE ORGANISATION RULES TO BUILD A HARD BORDER".
Fxck the rules regarding goods entering the country from blah blah blah.

I've asked you a question. I know Brexiteers don't like answering specific questions. But please try.

How do we manage trade and borders under a no deal Brexit to remain in compliance with the GFA and WTO rules. Because we must. What is your answer to that problem. Please do not fudge this. Because the stark reality is that there NEEDS TO BE AN ANSWER.

I don't understand your problem. WTO is not in opposition to GFA.

I've asked HOW you manage it to comply with both a frictionless border between NI and Ireland and WTO non-discrimination rules.

Are you proposing tariff free open borders everywhere? Because that is the only way to operate under WTO rules that would comply with the GFA in respect of the Irish Border. Because I repeat again and again. Under WTO rules you CANNOT have differential rules across your borders.

You can repeat it as often as you like. You are still talking bullshit.
There are no WTO rules about differential rules - you are making shit up.
Plus, when we leave, we have the same tarrifs, we have the same taxes, we have the same customs, and we have the same standards we have now. The Very Same. Nobody Is Building Hard Borders, Unless The EU Demands Them... And believe me, it's them who'll demand them Therefore we are not abrogating the fxcking Good Friday agreement.

[BWFC_Insane]

Jesus fxcking Christ... Mr Logic strikes back, Not.
So we leave the EU with No Deal on March 28th, and how does the EU's insistence on a backstop help anybody at that point???????????????????

If there is no deal then the likelihood is that the UK will contravene the GFA. It isn't at that point the EU's issue as we haven't made a deal and they will do whatever they deem fit to manage their borders appropriately.

The reality is that should it be "no deal" a deal will have to be struck on the Irish border but such a deal under WTO rules will have to apply everywhere. Something that was a May red line.

Our BATNA is the same as the EU's but infinitely worse!

Bullshit.
We will not be abrogating the Good Friday agreement. We will not be building borders. Ireland might, at the insistence of the EU. That is the EU and Ireland's problem... *Whoosh*

Let's explore this a little further... Who is it who will turn around and tell us to stick a hard border between Ballymog and the lane to Ballymug? Brazil? some man from Del Monte?

Ok - under a no deal scenario - whereby we trade with the EU and the RoW under WTO rules - how do you propose the Irish border is managed in accordance with the GFA AND in accordance with WTO non-discrimination rules?

Nobody will force us under WTO to build a hard border. What we CANNOT do is have one rule for some goods entering one part of the country and another rule for another set. So either everything is open or nothing is.

You've just answered your own question, and coincidentally dismissed the huge amounts of bullshit surrounding this.
To quote yourself: "NOBODY WILL FORCE US UNDER WORLD TRADE ORGANISATION RULES TO BUILD A HARD BORDER".
Fxck the rules regarding goods entering the country from blah blah blah.

I've asked you a question. I know Brexiteers don't like answering specific questions. But please try.

How do we manage trade and borders under a no deal Brexit to remain in compliance with the GFA and WTO rules. Because we must. What is your answer to that problem. Please do not fudge this. Because the stark reality is that there NEEDS TO BE AN ANSWER.

I don't understand your problem. WTO is not in opposition to GFA.

I've asked HOW you manage it to comply with both a frictionless border between NI and Ireland and WTO non-discrimination rules.

Are you proposing tariff free open borders everywhere? Because that is the only way to operate under WTO rules that would comply with the GFA in respect of the Irish Border. Because I repeat again and again. Under WTO rules you CANNOT have differential rules across your borders.

You can repeat it as often as you like. You are still talking bullshit.
There are no WTO rules about differential rules - you are making shit up.
Plus, when we leave, we have the same tarrifs, we have the same taxes, we have the same customs, and we have the same standards we have now. The Very Same. Nobody Is Building Hard Borders, Unless The EU Demands Them... And believe me, it's them who'll demand them Therefore we are not abrogating the fxcking Good Friday agreement.

And you can hide in Brexit fantasy land and repeat utter baseless nonsense as much as you like.

https://tradebetablog.wordpress.com/201 ... r-borders/

The facts are as I have laid out. If we have differential border arrangements we are open to legal challenge under WTO rules. It isn't something for debate. It is a simple fact.

You still haven't answered how we actually manage to operate. This of course does not even factor in the EU who have their own obligations under WTO rules.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Tradebetablog... That's your authority?...
At least when Prufrock contested the Pet Passport shit he quoted actual sources... irrelevant as they were, nonetheless.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

...and have you actually read the article you quoted.. . It backs up what I said!!!

[BWFC_Insane]

...and have you actually read the article you quoted.. . It backs up what I said!!!

https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/wh ... act2_e.htm

Ok. It’s in the bloody WTO rules themselves.

1. Most-favoured-nation (MFN): treating other people equally Under the WTO agreements, countries cannot normally discriminate between their trading partners. Grant someone a special favour (such as a lower customs duty rate for one of their products) and you have to do the same for all other WTO members

Can’t believe we are having this conversation. It’s crystal fecking clear.

[Hoboh]

Rumour is 48 letters have gone in

[BWFC_Insane]

Rumour is 48 letters have gone in

We’ve all heard that before....

[Harry Genshaw]

...and have you actually read the article you quoted.. . It backs up what I said!!!

https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/wh ... act2_e.htm

Ok. It’s in the bloody WTO rules themselves.

1. Most-favoured-nation (MFN): treating other people equally Under the WTO agreements, countries cannot normally discriminate between their trading partners. Grant someone a special favour (such as a lower customs duty rate for one of their products) and you have to do the same for all other WTO members

Can’t believe we are having this conversation. It’s crystal fecking clear.

I know nowt about the WTO so I had a look on Wikipedia.

"The WTO prohibits discrimination between trading partners but provides exceptions for environmental protection, national security and other important goals"

The GFA perhaps?

Does it have a record of refusing applicants or refusing applicants with multiple borders from having separate arrangements?

[BWFC_Insane]

...and have you actually read the article you quoted.. . It backs up what I said!!!

https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/wh ... act2_e.htm

Ok. It’s in the bloody WTO rules themselves.

1. Most-favoured-nation (MFN): treating other people equally Under the WTO agreements, countries cannot normally discriminate between their trading partners. Grant someone a special favour (such as a lower customs duty rate for one of their products) and you have to do the same for all other WTO members

Can’t believe we are having this conversation. It’s crystal fecking clear.

I know nowt about the WTO so I had a look on Wikipedia.

"The WTO prohibits discrimination between trading partners but provides exceptions for environmental protection, national security and other important goals"

The GFA perhaps?

Does it have a record of refusing applicants or refusing applicants with multiple borders from having separate arrangements?

It’s not a case of refusing. WTO is a set of rules - not a body in the sense the EU is. But it is a case of if another country legally challenges the relationship. So for example someone who trades via Calais could complain that their rivals in Ireland have preferential treatment. Should they win that case it’s a huge problem.

[Harry Genshaw]

^ Fair enough but it's all a bit ifs and maybes isn't it? Remainers and 2nd referendummers have leapt on it with undisguised glee as a reason to stop brexit or chequers but it's hardly a smoking gun

[BWFC_Insane]

^ Fair enough but it's all a bit ifs and maybes isn't it? Remainers and 2nd referendummers have leapt on it with undisguised glee as a reason to stop brexit or chequers but it's hardly a smoking gun

Bollocks. It’s international trading law. And the good Friday agreement. The fact Brexiteers were too self absorbed to realise this was an issue and have had no credible, viable plan to solve it beyond spouting about technology that does not yet exist.

When the major issues are raised the classic Brexit response is 1) deny they exist 2) use some generic phrase to offer a ‘solution’ that usually isn’t viable or doesn’t exist 3) when all else fails blame a remainer conspiracy.

The only way to resolve an EU exit without these headaches is via a Norway type deal. It’s almost as if being in a huge trading block with customs co-operation and frictionless trade has in the past few decades allowed us to solve issues like the Irish border? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Enoch]

have leapt on it with undisguised glee as a reason to stop brexit

.
Where d'ya get that idea, Harry!

As for all the years and years to get anything done, necessity and invention springs to mind. Of course there are folk still think other folk didn't work out how to travel to the moon and back in a transistor radio, inside a decade.

[Prufrock]

BwfcI is broadly right if a little fuzzy on the details.

WTO rules (it's more than just MFN which is tariffs) apply to non-tariff barriers too (which has been the main issue all along). We'd struggle hugely to justify on WTO terms having a free flexible basically non-existent border with Ireland unless we had materially the same at Dover (and every port and airport). So you can't make it a piece of piss to import from Ireland but then have more thorough checks on goods from France (FTAs and other exceptions that don't/can't apply aside).

Enforcement is a different matter, and there isn't really much of a WTO enforcement system but throughout Brexit it has been the policy of the govt that it will comply with its international obligations. This is a good thing.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Of course there are folk still think other folk didn't work out how to travel to the moon and back in a transistor radio, inside a decade.

Still, today, many moons later it is beyond the wit of several organisations to move a small package from one part of the UK to my particular part of the UK in less than 4 weeks. Impossible they say. No fcuking wonder these businesses are either closing half their business or going bust. There is far too much dimwittery for anyone to be confident of anything from our glorious leaders and captains of industry.

[BWFC_Insane]

So letters are in. But May will win the confidence vote. Which surely kills off the Tory Brexiteer hopes of steering towards a hard Brexit?

[Enoch]

Of course there are folk still think other folk didn't work out how to travel to the moon and back in a transistor radio, inside a decade.

Still, today, many moons later it is beyond the wit of several organisations to move a small package from one part of the UK to my particular part of the UK in less than 4 weeks. Impossible they say. No fcuking wonder these businesses are either closing half their business or going bust. There is far too much dimwittery for anyone to be confident of anything from our glorious leaders and captains of industry.

Your pain is felt but here's a thing....

If you say you can, you probably will. If you say you can't, you won't.

[Hoboh]

So letters are in. But May will win the confidence vote. Which surely kills off the Tory Brexiteer hopes of steering towards a hard Brexit?

You don't even remotely think like a Tory mate, May has a lot of enemy's from the past lurking around and quite a few more now who feel she has been jerking them off.
If she was so popular why the hell do you think she had to bring sourfaced Rudderless back?

[Hoboh]

So letters are in. But May will win the confidence vote. Which surely kills off the Tory Brexiteer hopes of steering towards a hard Brexit?

You don't even remotely think like a Tory mate, May has a lot of enemy's from the past lurking around and quite a few more now who feel she has been jerking them off.
If she was so popular why the hell do you think she had to bring sourfaced Rudderless back?
No Tory wishes to see their leader almost on all fours begging a German Chancer Chancellor.

[Harry Genshaw]

May might be hopeless but who's waiting in the wings with any gravitas or nous to unite a deeply divided party?

Since he's got a mandate for Brexit time now for BoJo to step up?

[Hoboh]

May might be hopeless but who's waiting in the wings with any gravitas or nous to unite a deeply divided party?

Since he's got a mandate for Brexit time now for BoJo to step up?

I'd rather like David Davies or Dominic Rabb, Boris is too tainted now and even Tories are not stupid enough (I hope) to vote for someone like c*nt Hunt