European Second Referendum

[Lost Leopard Spot]

http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2018/12/wh ... deal-poll/

Lord Ashcroft has done a poll of 5000 people. Theresa May's deal is as unpopular with the "people" as is it with MPs.

Interesting that the most popular solution is "a second referendum to choose between her deal and remain". BRING IT ON!

Also - popular opinion seems to be - we'd be better off staying in the EU than taking her deal.

No it should be remain or just leave, gerrymandering with a 'people's vote' would just inflame things even more.

Are you saying the choice should be remain or leave with no deal?

I'd be happy with that too.

Yes

Would be a clear choice. And it is what many Brexiteers want. As disastrous as I think no deal would be at least the whole thing would be clear and everyone decides.

Been a long, long road before we finally agree on something

A long long long fxcking long road.

[Hoboh]

http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2018/12/wh ... deal-poll/

Lord Ashcroft has done a poll of 5000 people. Theresa May's deal is as unpopular with the "people" as is it with MPs.

Interesting that the most popular solution is "a second referendum to choose between her deal and remain". BRING IT ON!

Also - popular opinion seems to be - we'd be better off staying in the EU than taking her deal.

No it should be remain or just leave, gerrymandering with a 'people's vote' would just inflame things even more.

Are you saying the choice should be remain or leave with no deal?

I'd be happy with that too.

Yes

Would be a clear choice. And it is what many Brexiteers want. As disastrous as I think no deal would be at least the whole thing would be clear and everyone decides.

Been a long, long road before we finally agree on something

A long long long fxcking long road.

2+ years, do you think we should present it to the forum spots or will some fanatics try to undermine it?

[Lost Leopard Spot]

What I don't understand, what I utterly fail to comprehend about this Irish border backstop shit is this:
If we leave with No Deal, then there will still be a border between UK and Eire.
80% of Irish imports from the rest of the EU will, still, move via road freight through Britain.
So, what hold do they have over us?
We've already said we'll accommodate the Good Friday agreement; economic blocs cannot override international law and demand the abolition of frontiers (imagine Trump telling China they can't have a border with North Korea!): if we have six months of shortages, the Irish will have a fxcking year of it!!! (Irish medicines come from the same source ours do, only they get theirs via Dover AND Holyhead)...
Jesus Christ. Face down the c*nts...

[BWFC_Insane]

What I don't understand, what I utterly fail to comprehend about this Irish border backstop shit is this:
If we leave with No Deal, then there will still be a border between UK and Eire.
80% of Irish imports from the rest of the EU will, still, move via road freight through Britain.
So, what hold do they have over us?
We've already said we'll accommodate the Good Friday agreement; economic blocs cannot override international law and demand the abolition of frontiers (imagine Trump telling China they can't have a border with North Korea!): if we have six months of shortages, the Irish will have a fxcking year of it!!! (Irish medicines come from the same source ours do, only they get theirs via Dover AND Holyhead)...
Jesus Christ. Face down the c*nts...

If we leave under WTO rules then we will have to apply the same tariff and customs rules across all our borders.

What we do in that scenario will still be up to us not to contravene the Good Friday Agreement and at that point it isn't the EU's issue.

The issue of the Good Friday Agreement is our problem. And the EU merely want their borders to be managed in accordance with their own trading block rules.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

What I don't understand, what I utterly fail to comprehend about this Irish border backstop shit is this:
If we leave with No Deal, then there will still be a border between UK and Eire.
80% of Irish imports from the rest of the EU will, still, move via road freight through Britain.
So, what hold do they have over us?
We've already said we'll accommodate the Good Friday agreement; economic blocs cannot override international law and demand the abolition of frontiers (imagine Trump telling China they can't have a border with North Korea!): if we have six months of shortages, the Irish will have a fxcking year of it!!! (Irish medicines come from the same source ours do, only they get theirs via Dover AND Holyhead)...
Jesus Christ. Face down the c*nts...

If we leave under WTO rules then we will have to apply the same tariff and customs rules across all our borders.

What we do in that scenario will still be up to us not to contravene the Good Friday Agreement and at that point it isn't the EU's issue.

The issue of the Good Friday Agreement is our problem. And the EU merely want their borders to be managed in accordance with their own trading block rules.

In that case why are they insisting on a legally binding agreement around it before they even agree to sit down to negotiate an agreement about trade, if it's our problem!?? Go on, Mr Logic, answer that!

[Harry Genshaw]

Have to say I don't understand why we don't just say to the EU 'you want a border? Then crack on and build it yourself" & just carry on regardless

[BWFC_Insane]

What I don't understand, what I utterly fail to comprehend about this Irish border backstop shit is this:
If we leave with No Deal, then there will still be a border between UK and Eire.
80% of Irish imports from the rest of the EU will, still, move via road freight through Britain.
So, what hold do they have over us?
We've already said we'll accommodate the Good Friday agreement; economic blocs cannot override international law and demand the abolition of frontiers (imagine Trump telling China they can't have a border with North Korea!): if we have six months of shortages, the Irish will have a fxcking year of it!!! (Irish medicines come from the same source ours do, only they get theirs via Dover AND Holyhead)...
Jesus Christ. Face down the c*nts...

If we leave under WTO rules then we will have to apply the same tariff and customs rules across all our borders.

What we do in that scenario will still be up to us not to contravene the Good Friday Agreement and at that point it isn't the EU's issue.

The issue of the Good Friday Agreement is our problem. And the EU merely want their borders to be managed in accordance with their own trading block rules.

In that case why are they insisting on a legally binding agreement around it before they even agree to sit down to negotiate an agreement about trade, if it's our problem!?? Go on, Mr Logic, answer that!

Why? Because the GFA commits the UK to maintaining a friction less border in terms of movement of goods and people. And to do that is incompatible with EU law UNLESS - we are in the CU. OR there is suitable processes (technology) in place to allow the border to operate as IT CURRENTLY DOES. Such technology CANNOT be installed today. Hence the backstop is the solution to allow the UK to satisfy the GFA and the EU to satisfy their border rules. BECAUSE you cannot just hope that such technology is ready and installed come the end of the transition period withing NOTHING in place should that not happen.

The EU would be perfectly happy for there to be NO backstop come the end of the transition period IF there was a regulated border - but WE cannot have that as it contravenes the GFA. They could also accept a permanent UK wide CU membership. But we would not accept that. They could accept EEA/CU membership for NI - but we would not accept that.

The idea that the EU are doing anything other than protect their members is a nonsense. They have bent and given NI preferential treatment in a backstop position that will cause them issues elsewhere. The UK simply did NOT fully understand, grasp or comprehend the implications of a negotiated backstop (or a no deal) on the GFA.

That isn't anyone's fault but the Tory government.

[BWFC_Insane]

Have to say I don't understand why we don't just say to the EU 'you want a border? Then crack on and build it yourself" & just carry on regardless

Because it contravenes the good friday agreement.

Should we leave on WTO rules - whatever we do in Ireland will have to apply to other borders. You cannot offer preferential border arrangements. And whatever we do in NI is dictated by our own GFA. As inconvenient as I know that is to the over simplified view of Brexit that has become de-rigueur.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Jesus fxcking Christ... Mr Logic strikes back, Not.
So we leave the EU with No Deal on March 28th, and how does the EU's insistence on a backstop help anybody at that point???????????????????

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Have to say I don't understand why we don't just say to the EU 'you want a border? Then crack on and build it yourself" & just carry on regardless

I agree. You, sir, have logic on your side.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Some fxcker'll be along any moment complaining about calling somebody sir, in this year of our lord twenty fxcking eighteen, no doubt

[BWFC_Insane]

Jesus fxcking Christ... Mr Logic strikes back, Not.
So we leave the EU with No Deal on March 28th, and how does the EU's insistence on a backstop help anybody at that point???????????????????

If there is no deal then the likelihood is that the UK will contravene the GFA. It isn't at that point the EU's issue as we haven't made a deal and they will do whatever they deem fit to manage their borders appropriately.

The reality is that should it be "no deal" a deal will have to be struck on the Irish border but such a deal under WTO rules will have to apply everywhere. Something that was a May red line.

Our BATNA is the same as the EU's but infinitely worse!

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Anyway, if Parliament blocks our exit from the EU this coming March, they will provoke the greatest constitutional crisis since the start of the English Civil War.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Jesus fxcking Christ... Mr Logic strikes back, Not.
So we leave the EU with No Deal on March 28th, and how does the EU's insistence on a backstop help anybody at that point???????????????????

If there is no deal then the likelihood is that the UK will contravene the GFA. It isn't at that point the EU's issue as we haven't made a deal and they will do whatever they deem fit to manage their borders appropriately.

The reality is that should it be "no deal" a deal will have to be struck on the Irish border but such a deal under WTO rules will have to apply everywhere. Something that was a May red line.

Our BATNA is the same as the EU's but infinitely worse!

Bullshit.
We will not be abrogating the Good Friday agreement. We will not be building borders. Ireland might, at the insistence of the EU. That is the EU and Ireland's problem... *Whoosh*

Let's explore this a little further... Who is it who will turn around and tell us to stick a hard border between Ballymog and the lane to Ballymug? Brazil? some man from Del Monte?

[BWFC_Insane]

Jesus fxcking Christ... Mr Logic strikes back, Not.
So we leave the EU with No Deal on March 28th, and how does the EU's insistence on a backstop help anybody at that point???????????????????

If there is no deal then the likelihood is that the UK will contravene the GFA. It isn't at that point the EU's issue as we haven't made a deal and they will do whatever they deem fit to manage their borders appropriately.

The reality is that should it be "no deal" a deal will have to be struck on the Irish border but such a deal under WTO rules will have to apply everywhere. Something that was a May red line.

Our BATNA is the same as the EU's but infinitely worse!

Bullshit.
We will not be abrogating the Good Friday agreement. We will not be building borders. Ireland might, at the insistence of the EU. That is the EU and Ireland's problem... *Whoosh*

Let's explore this a little further... Who is it who will turn around and tell us to stick a hard border between Ballymog and the lane to Ballymug? Brazil? some man from Del Monte?

Ok - under a no deal scenario - whereby we trade with the EU and the RoW under WTO rules - how do you propose the Irish border is managed in accordance with the GFA AND in accordance with WTO non-discrimination rules?

Nobody will force us under WTO to build a hard border. What we CANNOT do is have one rule for some goods entering one part of the country and another rule for another set. So either everything is open or nothing is.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Jesus fxcking Christ... Mr Logic strikes back, Not.
So we leave the EU with No Deal on March 28th, and how does the EU's insistence on a backstop help anybody at that point???????????????????

If there is no deal then the likelihood is that the UK will contravene the GFA. It isn't at that point the EU's issue as we haven't made a deal and they will do whatever they deem fit to manage their borders appropriately.

The reality is that should it be "no deal" a deal will have to be struck on the Irish border but such a deal under WTO rules will have to apply everywhere. Something that was a May red line.

Our BATNA is the same as the EU's but infinitely worse!

Bullshit.
We will not be abrogating the Good Friday agreement. We will not be building borders. Ireland might, at the insistence of the EU. That is the EU and Ireland's problem... *Whoosh*

Let's explore this a little further... Who is it who will turn around and tell us to stick a hard border between Ballymog and the lane to Ballymug? Brazil? some man from Del Monte?

Ok - under a no deal scenario - whereby we trade with the EU and the RoW under WTO rules - how do you propose the Irish border is managed in accordance with the GFA AND in accordance with WTO non-discrimination rules?

Nobody will force us under WTO to build a hard border. What we CANNOT do is have one rule for some goods entering one part of the country and another rule for another set. So either everything is open or nothing is.

You've just answered your own question, and coincidentally dismissed the huge amounts of bullshit surrounding this.
To quote yourself: "NOBODY WILL FORCE US UNDER WORLD TRADE ORGANISATION RULES TO BUILD A HARD BORDER".
Fxck the rules regarding goods entering the country from blah blah blah.
Point out anywhere in The Rules where one border can't be treated differently to another. There isn't, because there aren't any Rules regarding it. It's the same bullshit about Pet Passports - fxcking Nonsense.

[BWFC_Insane]

Jesus fxcking Christ... Mr Logic strikes back, Not.
So we leave the EU with No Deal on March 28th, and how does the EU's insistence on a backstop help anybody at that point???????????????????

If there is no deal then the likelihood is that the UK will contravene the GFA. It isn't at that point the EU's issue as we haven't made a deal and they will do whatever they deem fit to manage their borders appropriately.

The reality is that should it be "no deal" a deal will have to be struck on the Irish border but such a deal under WTO rules will have to apply everywhere. Something that was a May red line.

Our BATNA is the same as the EU's but infinitely worse!

Bullshit.
We will not be abrogating the Good Friday agreement. We will not be building borders. Ireland might, at the insistence of the EU. That is the EU and Ireland's problem... *Whoosh*

Let's explore this a little further... Who is it who will turn around and tell us to stick a hard border between Ballymog and the lane to Ballymug? Brazil? some man from Del Monte?

Ok - under a no deal scenario - whereby we trade with the EU and the RoW under WTO rules - how do you propose the Irish border is managed in accordance with the GFA AND in accordance with WTO non-discrimination rules?

Nobody will force us under WTO to build a hard border. What we CANNOT do is have one rule for some goods entering one part of the country and another rule for another set. So either everything is open or nothing is.

You've just answered your own question, and coincidentally dismissed the huge amounts of bullshit surrounding this.
To quote yourself: "NOBODY WILL FORCE US UNDER WORLD TRADE ORGANISATION RULES TO BUILD A HARD BORDER".
Fxck the rules regarding goods entering the country from blah blah blah.

I've asked you a question. I know Brexiteers don't like answering specific questions. But please try.

How do we manage trade and borders under a no deal Brexit to remain in compliance with the GFA and WTO rules. Because we must. What is your answer to that problem. Please do not fudge this. Because the stark reality is that there NEEDS TO BE AN ANSWER.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Jesus fxcking Christ... Mr Logic strikes back, Not.
So we leave the EU with No Deal on March 28th, and how does the EU's insistence on a backstop help anybody at that point???????????????????

If there is no deal then the likelihood is that the UK will contravene the GFA. It isn't at that point the EU's issue as we haven't made a deal and they will do whatever they deem fit to manage their borders appropriately.

The reality is that should it be "no deal" a deal will have to be struck on the Irish border but such a deal under WTO rules will have to apply everywhere. Something that was a May red line.

Our BATNA is the same as the EU's but infinitely worse!

Bullshit.
We will not be abrogating the Good Friday agreement. We will not be building borders. Ireland might, at the insistence of the EU. That is the EU and Ireland's problem... *Whoosh*

Let's explore this a little further... Who is it who will turn around and tell us to stick a hard border between Ballymog and the lane to Ballymug? Brazil? some man from Del Monte?

Ok - under a no deal scenario - whereby we trade with the EU and the RoW under WTO rules - how do you propose the Irish border is managed in accordance with the GFA AND in accordance with WTO non-discrimination rules?

Nobody will force us under WTO to build a hard border. What we CANNOT do is have one rule for some goods entering one part of the country and another rule for another set. So either everything is open or nothing is.

You've just answered your own question, and coincidentally dismissed the huge amounts of bullshit surrounding this.
To quote yourself: "NOBODY WILL FORCE US UNDER WORLD TRADE ORGANISATION RULES TO BUILD A HARD BORDER".
Fxck the rules regarding goods entering the country from blah blah blah.

I've asked you a question. I know Brexiteers don't like answering specific questions. But please try.

How do we manage trade and borders under a no deal Brexit to remain in compliance with the GFA and WTO rules. Because we must. What is your answer to that problem. Please do not fudge this. Because the stark reality is that there NEEDS TO BE AN ANSWER.

I don't understand your problem. WTO is not in opposition to GFA.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

So go on, tell me why it should be?

[BWFC_Insane]

Jesus fxcking Christ... Mr Logic strikes back, Not.
So we leave the EU with No Deal on March 28th, and how does the EU's insistence on a backstop help anybody at that point???????????????????

If there is no deal then the likelihood is that the UK will contravene the GFA. It isn't at that point the EU's issue as we haven't made a deal and they will do whatever they deem fit to manage their borders appropriately.

The reality is that should it be "no deal" a deal will have to be struck on the Irish border but such a deal under WTO rules will have to apply everywhere. Something that was a May red line.

Our BATNA is the same as the EU's but infinitely worse!

Bullshit.
We will not be abrogating the Good Friday agreement. We will not be building borders. Ireland might, at the insistence of the EU. That is the EU and Ireland's problem... *Whoosh*

Let's explore this a little further... Who is it who will turn around and tell us to stick a hard border between Ballymog and the lane to Ballymug? Brazil? some man from Del Monte?

Ok - under a no deal scenario - whereby we trade with the EU and the RoW under WTO rules - how do you propose the Irish border is managed in accordance with the GFA AND in accordance with WTO non-discrimination rules?

Nobody will force us under WTO to build a hard border. What we CANNOT do is have one rule for some goods entering one part of the country and another rule for another set. So either everything is open or nothing is.

You've just answered your own question, and coincidentally dismissed the huge amounts of bullshit surrounding this.
To quote yourself: "NOBODY WILL FORCE US UNDER WORLD TRADE ORGANISATION RULES TO BUILD A HARD BORDER".
Fxck the rules regarding goods entering the country from blah blah blah.

I've asked you a question. I know Brexiteers don't like answering specific questions. But please try.

How do we manage trade and borders under a no deal Brexit to remain in compliance with the GFA and WTO rules. Because we must. What is your answer to that problem. Please do not fudge this. Because the stark reality is that there NEEDS TO BE AN ANSWER.

I don't understand your problem. WTO is not in opposition to GFA.

I've asked HOW you manage it to comply with both a frictionless border between NI and Ireland and WTO non-discrimination rules.

Are you proposing tariff free open borders everywhere? Because that is the only way to operate under WTO rules that would comply with the GFA in respect of the Irish Border. Because I repeat again and again. Under WTO rules you CANNOT have differential rules across your borders.