European Second Referendum

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In or Out

IN (including all the rules and all the costs including increased costs).
7
44%
OUT (including a proper No Deal Brexit with no payment to the EU at all, and no more rule taking).
7
44%
MAY-be: or are you one of her followers?
2
13%
 
Total votes: 16

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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:32 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:24 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:20 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:05 pm
Hoboh wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:49 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:13 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:05 pm
Here is a prediction.

May gets her 585 page legally binding "withdrawal agreement" and her 26 pages of non-legally binding weak, pathetic, agreement to have an agreement documents passed by Europe on Sunday (despite Spain and France throwing tantrums).
Parliament votes on this in December the something.
Parliament passes said withdrawal agreement despite all 10 DUP MPs voting against, because Labour MPs roll over and have their bellies tickled and vote it in.
Labour combine with Liberals, SNP, and DUP and vote down all government legislation.
No Confidence vote in May is carried, but necessary number of MPs for general election cannot be found.
Queen invites Jeremy Corbyn to become PM with a minority administration.
Corbyn takes us out of EU on March 29th and immediately sets us on a course to be in a permanent customs union with the EU forevermore...
The above, in bold, has come to pass. Five days to go and I still stick by the entire prediction even though newspaper headlines and commentators are claiming May will not get her Brexit vote passed by parliament ...
Don't think the Queen and Corbyn will come to pass nor May succeeding getting the deal through.
I'd reckon no confidence vote which HMG will win then removal of May by the Tories with Brexit delayed by 6 months to give time for EU/UK talks under new PM.
Interesting... But, I don't understand the mechanism that would allow Brexit to be delayed. March 29th is automatic, especially if no leader (PM) is in place, unless EU agrees, which they won't.
There have been hints from the EU that they would allow a delay on A50. I think personally they will do anything to avoid no deal (as will we) so IF this deal is rejected heavily by parliament - to the point that parliament would demand a significant change to the legal document (as opposed to a smaller defeat numbers wise where a change to the non binding future relationship document might convince a handful to change their minds) then the only options will be no deal or extension of A50 as there is not time to renegotiate a substantial withdrawal agreement before March.
But a delay won't be up to Barnier. It will be up to the Presidency... (see my reservations in post above yours).
Yep - its not a given. I still think every indication has been they'd agree. They still hope we stay. Its a tough situation we've put ourselves in - essentially if this cannot get through then 2 years plus have been completely wasted. I find May completely and utterly unacceptable, but then I'm stuck with what alternatives there are. But she's cooked up a secret plan that nobody really likes. Even those who say they will support it do so with huge reservations. Nobody thinks its "positive". Just "less bad" than no deal.

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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:33 pm

Hoboh wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:28 pm
As part of .y prediction I missed, the EU will agree to delay on the premise of their famous second referendum taking place.
Ahhhh :D
Yup. I reckon they'll go for that provided the choice will be May Deal / Remain. They'll suck that up without a single doubt.
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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:40 pm

I truly utterly believe that Remainers underestimate the percentage of Brexiters who are actually quite comfortable with No Deal as an outcome. Especially the longer this shit goes on. The turning point for me was Galileo: after that I want nothing less than No Deal.
I'd love for us to threaten that on April 1st to turn around and say, sorry Lufthansa flight 101 to Heathrow is not permitted to land... Project Fear & Bullshit can (politically) work both ways. But May (because she's a Remainer at heart) has failed to utilise it.
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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:57 pm

Wow, and having posted that ^ ,
I've just read this:
"Polling evidence shows that many Leavers don't even understand the term "no-deal", thinking everything stays as it is"

That was by the Times correspondent Jenni Russell. How patronising is that cxnt?

Well Jenni, I'd love to see where this 'polling evidence' comes from. I'm pretty fxcking sure that nobody has formulated a question that can give you that evidence. Actually, I think you're making shit up, actually.

It's truly amazing how condescending Remainers can be. Pretty much the same attitude Missouri cotton planters had to slaves in the 1840's - what, those, they can't possibly understand, ill informed, uneducated, lesser human beings...
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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:45 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:57 pm
Wow, and having posted that ^ ,
I've just read this:
"Polling evidence shows that many Leavers don't even understand the term "no-deal", thinking everything stays as it is"

That was by the Times correspondent Jenni Russell. How patronising is that cxnt?

Well Jenni, I'd love to see where this 'polling evidence' comes from. I'm pretty fxcking sure that nobody has formulated a question that can give you that evidence. Actually, I think you're making shit up, actually.

It's truly amazing how condescending Remainers can be. Pretty much the same attitude Missouri cotton planters had to slaves in the 1840's - what, those, they can't possibly understand, ill informed, uneducated, lesser human beings...
Do you think Brexiteers are any different? They told us "it'll be simple, done in a few months, we'll get everything we want, no downsides". Yet its clear that was utter drivel. Now they try and blame everyone but themselves. There have been ample opportunities for a Brexiteer to take the reigns yet none of them have as deep down they all know it is undeliverable. So they hide and snipe because they want someone else to take the hit.

The real problem here like it or not is that the majority of politicians, economists, academics, experts etc do not believe in Brexit. They never did. So the vision of Brexit was sold by those more marginalised by mainstream politics and of course political opportunists. At least that is how it seemed. And the promises were clearly nonsense but swallowed up by people who genuinely believed those promises. On the other hand many simply voted Brexit as a protest against a status quo they don't like. Without realising that the EU are the last people on the list to blame for their problems.

The major valid Brexit arguments (yes CAP and CFP but I don't think very many voters were all that arsed - correct me if I'm wrong) as I see it are: ending free movement and the neoliberal approach to free trade that does disadvantage some local communities, ending creeping federalisation (whether you believe it exists or not it does end such a risk). Now those two arguments were prominent in the campaign but also attached to a lot of other nonsense.

It was presented as a panacea to people and not a nuanced debate - ending free movement is generally good in some instances but the drawbacks on business and trade are also very clear, for example.

The jingoistic rhetoric many Brexit voters use is not helpful either.

The remain side were culpable of failing to present a positive case and instead focusing on predictions of doom and finger wagging. I get it.

But now beyond all the rhetoric and nonsense we are here, in a shambles, a mess and clearly whatever Brexit is, it isn't easy, isn't painless and isn't one singular option. I suspect even then the British electorate still probably wants Brexit - but I'm definitely interested to test that.

The trouble is the ability for reasoned debate has gone. I heard someone (a brexiteer) ring into the radio on Wednesday to call Mark Carner "economically illiterate". That is literally where we've sunk to. Not perhaps insinuating a political message behind his predictions. Just a bloke who drives a truck for a living calling the governor of the bank of england "thick" because he said something that didn't suit his argument.

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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:25 pm

^ Quote " the promises were clearly nonsense but were swallowed up by people"... You see, you're at it too!

3 things.
1st. CAP and CFP were hardly peripheral in my thinking.
2nd. You didn't even mention the Eurozone in your argument against. The most stupid economic/fiscal experiment that mankind has devised yet. (Italy in the next few months will start to show the Very Real cracks in that monolith).
3rd. You mention in passing and dismiss it in the same breath, ...creeping federalism. That, and that alone was worth voting Brexit. It's not creeping: it's an avowed aim. It's not federalism: It will be a non democratic centralised super-state.

I know you and other Remainers hold different views. We Are two tribes. But really, the insults about intelligence and not understanding, and racism, and being led by the noses, and being lied to, are all (ok, 90%) emanating from Remainers, despite one truck driver calling Mark Carney 'thick'.*

* Personally speaking, I have many many issues with Mark Carney. I won't call him an unbalanced, politically un-neutral Canadian chancer, just in case you call me a cotton picker, but he is.
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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:33 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:25 pm
^ Quote " the promises were clearly nonsense but were swallowed up by people"... You see, you're at it too!

3 things.
1st. CAP and CFP were hardly peripheral in my thinking.
2nd. You didn't even mention the Eurozone in your argument against. The most stupid economic/fiscal experiment that mankind has devised yet. (Italy in the next few months will start to show the Very Real cracks in that monolith).
3rd. You mention in passing and dismiss it in the same breath, ...creeping federalism. That, and that alone was worth voting Brexit. It's not creeping: it's an avowed aim. It's not federalism: It will be a non democratic centralised super-state.

I know you and other Remainers hold different views. We Are two tribes. But really, the insults about intelligence and not understanding, and racism, and being led by the noses, and being lied to, are all (ok, 90%) emanating from Remainers.
The promises were nonsense and people did believe them. Not saying you did. But I'd wager that people posting on a forum about politics put them way above the average voter in terms of consciousness.

The problem is that politically (MPs etc) most Brexiteers are more extreme generally than remainers. So you get a more distorted message in general. In fact remain downplayed their own hand in the referendum.

Also I'm not calling Brexiteers thick. But it is a fact that the more educated you are the more likely you were to vote remain. I have no proof for this but I'd wager that those more engaged with the details voted remain (as an average). Clearly you won't agree but it is a problem in my view. I do not believe the majority knew what they were voting for (remain or leave) and therefore now there is generally more knowledge generally of what is involved.

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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:55 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:33 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:25 pm
^ Quote " the promises were clearly nonsense but were swallowed up by people"... You see, you're at it too!

3 things.
1st. CAP and CFP were hardly peripheral in my thinking.
2nd. You didn't even mention the Eurozone in your argument against. The most stupid economic/fiscal experiment that mankind has devised yet. (Italy in the next few months will start to show the Very Real cracks in that monolith).
3rd. You mention in passing and dismiss it in the same breath, ...creeping federalism. That, and that alone was worth voting Brexit. It's not creeping: it's an avowed aim. It's not federalism: It will be a non democratic centralised super-state.

I know you and other Remainers hold different views. We Are two tribes. But really, the insults about intelligence and not understanding, and racism, and being led by the noses, and being lied to, are all (ok, 90%) emanating from Remainers.
The promises were nonsense and people did believe them. Not saying you did. But I'd wager that people posting on a forum about politics put them way above the average voter in terms of consciousness.

The problem is that politically (MPs etc) most Brexiteers are more extreme generally than remainers. So you get a more distorted message in general. In fact remain downplayed their own hand in the referendum.

Also I'm not calling Brexiteers thick. But it is a fact that the more educated you are the more likely you were to vote remain. I have no proof for this but I'd wager that those more engaged with the details voted remain (as an average). Clearly you won't agree but it is a problem in my view. I do not believe the majority knew what they were voting for (remain or leave) and therefore now there is generally more knowledge generally of what is involved.
The promises were not nonsense. They haven't been properly addressed FFS!. Everybody seems to be forgetting we haven't actually left yet, so how can you diss something that hasn't happened? The negotiations we are in are negotiations about a negotiation! And it seems to me we should cut the crap and just leave. Because the negotiations about a negotiation is where the fxcking nonsense lies!!!

Of course Brexiteers are more extreme than Remainers - there are less of them in parliament and government and administration, they are having to fight pseudo-Brexiteers like May, and supposed neutrals like Robbins.

You're "not calling Brexiteers thick... just less" intelligent/educated/sophisticated/nuanced/civilised.
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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:57 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:55 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:33 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:25 pm
^ Quote " the promises were clearly nonsense but were swallowed up by people"... You see, you're at it too!

3 things.
1st. CAP and CFP were hardly peripheral in my thinking.
2nd. You didn't even mention the Eurozone in your argument against. The most stupid economic/fiscal experiment that mankind has devised yet. (Italy in the next few months will start to show the Very Real cracks in that monolith).
3rd. You mention in passing and dismiss it in the same breath, ...creeping federalism. That, and that alone was worth voting Brexit. It's not creeping: it's an avowed aim. It's not federalism: It will be a non democratic centralised super-state.

I know you and other Remainers hold different views. We Are two tribes. But really, the insults about intelligence and not understanding, and racism, and being led by the noses, and being lied to, are all (ok, 90%) emanating from Remainers.
The promises were nonsense and people did believe them. Not saying you did. But I'd wager that people posting on a forum about politics put them way above the average voter in terms of consciousness.

The problem is that politically (MPs etc) most Brexiteers are more extreme generally than remainers. So you get a more distorted message in general. In fact remain downplayed their own hand in the referendum.

Also I'm not calling Brexiteers thick. But it is a fact that the more educated you are the more likely you were to vote remain. I have no proof for this but I'd wager that those more engaged with the details voted remain (as an average). Clearly you won't agree but it is a problem in my view. I do not believe the majority knew what they were voting for (remain or leave) and therefore now there is generally more knowledge generally of what is involved.
The promises were not nonsense. They haven't been properly addressed FFS!. Everybody seems to be forgetting we haven't actually left yet, so how can you diss something that hasn't happened? The negotiations we are in are negotiations about a negotiation! And it seems to me we should cut the crap and just leave. Because the negotiations about a negotiation is where the fxcking nonsense lies!!!

Of course Brexiteers are more extreme than Remainers - there are less of them in parliament and government and administration, they are having to fight pseudo-Brexiteers like May, and supposed neutrals like Robbins.

You're "not calling Brexiteers thick... just less" intelligent/educated/sophisticated/nuanced/civilised.
There were Brexiteers who promised "we can stay in the SM without FoM". That we'd be able to manage our borders outside a CU and it would present "no issue to the GFA". That we could spend hundreds of millions on public services even though no good faith projections suggests that will remotely be the case.

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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:00 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:57 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:55 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:33 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:25 pm
^ Quote " the promises were clearly nonsense but were swallowed up by people"... You see, you're at it too!

3 things.
1st. CAP and CFP were hardly peripheral in my thinking.
2nd. You didn't even mention the Eurozone in your argument against. The most stupid economic/fiscal experiment that mankind has devised yet. (Italy in the next few months will start to show the Very Real cracks in that monolith).
3rd. You mention in passing and dismiss it in the same breath, ...creeping federalism. That, and that alone was worth voting Brexit. It's not creeping: it's an avowed aim. It's not federalism: It will be a non democratic centralised super-state.

I know you and other Remainers hold different views. We Are two tribes. But really, the insults about intelligence and not understanding, and racism, and being led by the noses, and being lied to, are all (ok, 90%) emanating from Remainers.
The promises were nonsense and people did believe them. Not saying you did. But I'd wager that people posting on a forum about politics put them way above the average voter in terms of consciousness.

The problem is that politically (MPs etc) most Brexiteers are more extreme generally than remainers. So you get a more distorted message in general. In fact remain downplayed their own hand in the referendum.

Also I'm not calling Brexiteers thick. But it is a fact that the more educated you are the more likely you were to vote remain. I have no proof for this but I'd wager that those more engaged with the details voted remain (as an average). Clearly you won't agree but it is a problem in my view. I do not believe the majority knew what they were voting for (remain or leave) and therefore now there is generally more knowledge generally of what is involved.
The promises were not nonsense. They haven't been properly addressed FFS!. Everybody seems to be forgetting we haven't actually left yet, so how can you diss something that hasn't happened? The negotiations we are in are negotiations about a negotiation! And it seems to me we should cut the crap and just leave. Because the negotiations about a negotiation is where the fxcking nonsense lies!!!

Of course Brexiteers are more extreme than Remainers - there are less of them in parliament and government and administration, they are having to fight pseudo-Brexiteers like May, and supposed neutrals like Robbins.

You're "not calling Brexiteers thick... just less" intelligent/educated/sophisticated/nuanced/civilised.
There were Brexiteers who promised "we can stay in the SM without FoM". That we'd be able to manage our borders outside a CU and it would present "no issue to the GFA". That we could spend hundreds of millions on public services even though no good faith projections suggests that will remotely be the case.
Well, Theresa May has already (before we've left) put hundreds of millions into public services.
As for the rest, most of us never wanted to be in the single market - that's a half way fop for Remainers' benefit.
I've no idea what GFA stands for, and if any Brexiteers suggested we could manage our borders outside a Customs Union, then, of course we fxcking can.

What we failed to do in these negotiations towards a negotiation was to do what the EU did, and threaten them. If we had we'd now have an agreement to agree a negotiation.
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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:19 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:00 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:57 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:55 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:33 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:25 pm
^ Quote " the promises were clearly nonsense but were swallowed up by people"... You see, you're at it too!

3 things.
1st. CAP and CFP were hardly peripheral in my thinking.
2nd. You didn't even mention the Eurozone in your argument against. The most stupid economic/fiscal experiment that mankind has devised yet. (Italy in the next few months will start to show the Very Real cracks in that monolith).
3rd. You mention in passing and dismiss it in the same breath, ...creeping federalism. That, and that alone was worth voting Brexit. It's not creeping: it's an avowed aim. It's not federalism: It will be a non democratic centralised super-state.

I know you and other Remainers hold different views. We Are two tribes. But really, the insults about intelligence and not understanding, and racism, and being led by the noses, and being lied to, are all (ok, 90%) emanating from Remainers.
The promises were nonsense and people did believe them. Not saying you did. But I'd wager that people posting on a forum about politics put them way above the average voter in terms of consciousness.

The problem is that politically (MPs etc) most Brexiteers are more extreme generally than remainers. So you get a more distorted message in general. In fact remain downplayed their own hand in the referendum.

Also I'm not calling Brexiteers thick. But it is a fact that the more educated you are the more likely you were to vote remain. I have no proof for this but I'd wager that those more engaged with the details voted remain (as an average). Clearly you won't agree but it is a problem in my view. I do not believe the majority knew what they were voting for (remain or leave) and therefore now there is generally more knowledge generally of what is involved.
The promises were not nonsense. They haven't been properly addressed FFS!. Everybody seems to be forgetting we haven't actually left yet, so how can you diss something that hasn't happened? The negotiations we are in are negotiations about a negotiation! And it seems to me we should cut the crap and just leave. Because the negotiations about a negotiation is where the fxcking nonsense lies!!!

Of course Brexiteers are more extreme than Remainers - there are less of them in parliament and government and administration, they are having to fight pseudo-Brexiteers like May, and supposed neutrals like Robbins.

You're "not calling Brexiteers thick... just less" intelligent/educated/sophisticated/nuanced/civilised.
There were Brexiteers who promised "we can stay in the SM without FoM". That we'd be able to manage our borders outside a CU and it would present "no issue to the GFA". That we could spend hundreds of millions on public services even though no good faith projections suggests that will remotely be the case.
Well, Theresa May has already (before we've left) put hundreds of millions into public services.
As for the rest, most of us never wanted to be in the single market - that's a half way fop for Remainers' benefit.
I've no idea what GFA stands for, and if any Brexiteers suggested we could manage our borders outside a Customs Union, then, of course we fxcking can.

What we failed to do in these negotiations towards a negotiation was to do what the EU did, and threaten them. If we had we'd now have an agreement to agree a negotiation.
That is completely disingenuous and you know it. It completely proves my point - our public services that are underfunded are a political choice that we make ourselves every time we vote in a Tory govt.

GFA - Good Friday Agreement.

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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:39 pm

As a point of order. This government, in a budget, pledged the same amount as appeared on the side of a bus for the NHS. That's not disengenious, that's a fact.

And anyway, I've already given my Nostradamus. We'll get shafted, we always were going to get shafted.
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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:15 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:39 pm
As a point of order. This government, in a budget, pledged the same amount as appeared on the side of a bus for the NHS. That's not disengenious, that's a fact.

And anyway, I've already given my Nostradamus. We'll get shafted, we always were going to get shafted.
But that pledge was a) because they'd underfunded the NHS for 8 years and driven it to breaking point and b) nothing to do with our decision to leave the EU.

We could have spent that money regardless. Leaving the EU will by all government predictions make us poorer than if we stayed. So the government does not believe in any windfall to be spent as a result of leaving.

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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:25 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:15 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:39 pm
As a point of order. This government, in a budget, pledged the same amount as appeared on the side of a bus for the NHS. That's not disengenious, that's a fact.

And anyway, I've already given my Nostradamus. We'll get shafted, we always were going to get shafted.
But that pledge was a) because they'd underfunded the NHS for 8 years and driven it to breaking point and b) nothing to do with our decision to leave the EU.

We could have spent that money regardless. Leaving the EU will by all government predictions make us poorer than if we stayed. So the government does not believe in any windfall to be spent as a result of leaving.
But without the shit on the side of a bus, they wouldn't have given even that much... :whack: That wasn't the a victory for commonsense, but a victory created by who you think of as brain dead morons... Remainers didn't get that money pledged, FFS!
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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:26 pm

And yes, in economic terms, by all measures we will be poorer. But in democratic terms, by all measures we will be richer.

I prefer to be a poor honest peasant to a rich devious slave.
Last edited by Lost Leopard Spot on Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:29 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:25 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:15 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:39 pm
As a point of order. This government, in a budget, pledged the same amount as appeared on the side of a bus for the NHS. That's not disengenious, that's a fact.

And anyway, I've already given my Nostradamus. We'll get shafted, we always were going to get shafted.
But that pledge was a) because they'd underfunded the NHS for 8 years and driven it to breaking point and b) nothing to do with our decision to leave the EU.

We could have spent that money regardless. Leaving the EU will by all government predictions make us poorer than if we stayed. So the government does not believe in any windfall to be spent as a result of leaving.
But without the shit on the side of a bus, they wouldn't have given even that much... :whack: That wasn't the a victory for commonsense, but a victory created by who you think of as brain dead morons... Remainers didn't get that money pledged, FFS!
Oh come on. Do you seriously believe that? It was an amount in response to a calculated funding hole. May then (disgracefully) tried to pretend that was the Brexit windfall to get her off the hook of some tricky questioning.

By your argument you might as well say it was Labour who got them to pledge that amount in order to marginally trump Labours spending pledge.

The idea that the nonsense on a bus was anything other than a dangerous and outright lie is never washing with me. But I don't even refer to that particularly when I say the misinformation from the campaign was monstrous. Specifically some of the things that were said around the ease of obtaining a suitable trading deal/customs and border arrangements and other agreements with the EU.

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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:33 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:29 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:25 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:15 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:39 pm
As a point of order. This government, in a budget, pledged the same amount as appeared on the side of a bus for the NHS. That's not disengenious, that's a fact.

And anyway, I've already given my Nostradamus. We'll get shafted, we always were going to get shafted.
But that pledge was a) because they'd underfunded the NHS for 8 years and driven it to breaking point and b) nothing to do with our decision to leave the EU.

We could have spent that money regardless. Leaving the EU will by all government predictions make us poorer than if we stayed. So the government does not believe in any windfall to be spent as a result of leaving.
But without the shit on the side of a bus, they wouldn't have given even that much... :whack: That wasn't the a victory for commonsense, but a victory created by who you think of as brain dead morons... Remainers didn't get that money pledged, FFS!
Oh come on. Do you seriously believe that? It was an amount in response to a calculated funding hole. May then (disgracefully) tried to pretend that was the Brexit windfall to get her off the hook of some tricky questioning.

By your argument you might as well say it was Labour who got them to pledge that amount in order to marginally trump Labours spending pledge.

The idea that the nonsense on a bus was anything other than a dangerous and outright lie is never washing with me. But I don't even refer to that particularly when I say the misinformation from the campaign was monstrous. Specifically some of the things that were said around the ease of obtaining a suitable trading deal/customs and border arrangements and other agreements with the EU.
To tell you the truth, I don't give a fxck about the NHS in regard to Brexit. In or out we need to fund it.
See my post above your post. That's where my heart lies. I'm just sick to death of Remainers whingeing on about fxcking buses...
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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:37 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:26 pm
And yes, in economic terms, by all measures we will be poorer. But in democratic terms, by all measures we will be richer.

I prefer to be a poor honest peasant to a rich devious slave.
See and this the central point where you and I have a perfectly reasonable and valid disagreement, and one we'll never reconcile.

I do not believe we've gained democratically at all. And in my view recent events show exactly why we haven't. The EU did not rob our democracy they were not a dictatorship. They are a rules based club and if you want in you abide by the rules, but you also get a vote on them. We've chosen to leave but whilst leaving have suddenly realised we can't access the gym and sauna anymore - so we're trying to negotiate access but as part of that we'd like to be able to still use the gym and sauna but also do a huge dump in their swimming pool each time. Without paying for any of it. And we'd also like to be able to tell them how they should run their club because we don't want to still contribute with no say. Except none of that would wash - and in this context doesn't wash either. Perhaps the private club are salty we've left and are just being mean and difficult when they say we can no longer use their private car park when we're "nipping to the shops" and perhaps you know a nice thing to do would be to let us. But then we exercised our democratic right to leave.....

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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:49 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:37 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:26 pm
And yes, in economic terms, by all measures we will be poorer. But in democratic terms, by all measures we will be richer.

I prefer to be a poor honest peasant to a rich devious slave.
See and this the central point where you and I have a perfectly reasonable and valid disagreement, and one we'll never reconcile.

I do not believe we've gained democratically at all. And in my view recent events show exactly why we haven't. The EU did not rob our democracy they were not a dictatorship. They are a rules based club and if you want in you abide by the rules, but you also get a vote on them. We've chosen to leave but whilst leaving have suddenly realised we can't access the gym and sauna anymore - so we're trying to negotiate access but as part of that we'd like to be able to still use the gym and sauna but also do a huge dump in their swimming pool each time. Without paying for any of it. And we'd also like to be able to tell them how they should run their club because we don't want to still contribute with no say. Except none of that would wash - and in this context doesn't wash either. Perhaps the private club are salty we've left and are just being mean and difficult when they say we can no longer use their private car park when we're "nipping to the shops" and perhaps you know a nice thing to do would be to let us. But then we exercised our democratic right to leave.....
I agree we will never reconcile this.
Mainly because, the people explaining to the club haven't said "sorry matey, we don't like your club, we're leaving". Instead, they've done exactly as you've described regarding sauna and pools and gym etc.
But, BUT, BUT, that's because those in charge of handing back the membership card actually still deep down want to be members...

Hello Europe, fxck off we've had enough *rips membership card up*, now what are you going to do about that? would have been most of our (according to you, extremist) Brexiteer's stance.
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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:06 pm

I'll just add this though, before we totally dismiss the economic argument.
Irish tail wags dog at the moment through the Backstop.
But, if No Deal does occur: Ireland forecast for 7% drop in GDP v 5% for UK; UK accounts for 13.1% of exports to Ireland in opposition to 29.1% imports; 80% of Irish goods to the EU pass by road freight THROUGH the UK.

Any additional checks at borders may well impact on the UK, but WILL absolutely stuff Ireland.
If France gets confrontational at borders, the impact will be felt in Dublin within hours, whereas it would be days if not weeks before London feels any impact (we do, after all, import 92% of goods via seaports).
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