European Second Referendum

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In or Out

IN (including all the rules and all the costs including increased costs).
7
44%
OUT (including a proper No Deal Brexit with no payment to the EU at all, and no more rule taking).
7
44%
MAY-be: or are you one of her followers?
2
13%
 
Total votes: 16

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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:58 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:51 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:37 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:08 pm
Without commenting on the rights and wrongs of it all, I had to laugh at (?) claiming "Bring it back to the people!"..waves clenched fist above head to audience. If you want to gain support for anything, always pretend you're on the side of "the people". What about those who totally disagree? Are they not "the people" ?. Weakest bandwaggon banner ever, yet still they trot it out with Joan of Arc fervour shining out of their eyes......as I said, I laughed at the brazen bullshxtery of manipulative campaigning. :lol:
You realise the reason it has been called the "people's vote" is to distinguish it from the Parliamentary votes don't you?

Anyhow May is ducking the vote. Running away. As per.....
She's not running away. She's deliberately manipulating it such that Parliament can overwhelm the previous People's Vote. She is, and always has been one of yours - a Remainer.
I honestly don't think she has a single principle - she will do, say, and change ANYTHING that she thinks will help her cling onto power a bit longer. She was a remainer, then the staunchest of Brexiteers, then a staunch pragmatist.

She's spent two weeks telling us "this is the deal, it cannot be changed". Now she'll say "I'll go and change it".

Whether she's a remainer or a brexiteer is immaterial. She doesn't care - only about her future.

I'd rather Raab was in charge than her - and I pretty much disagree with everything he says - but at least he believes in what he says.

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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:06 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:55 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:48 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:36 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:31 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:30 am
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:05 pm
Latest published poll.
1,262 Tory party members:
16% supported May's deal
23% want renegotiation
50% No Deal leavers
7% no Brexiteer's
3% second referendum.

Mmmm, I wonder what Labour membership percentages would be, especially as grass root Labour voters supported Leave!

Bring it on.
Polling has shown that 70% of Labour voters at the last GE want to remain.
Really! I think not.
Sorry it was 65%. https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/ar ... tain-voted

But still...

86% of Labour members want a 2nd referendum.

https://www.ft.com/content/dc56ee36-bea ... 6dfef1b89a

There is a shift in politics. Labour now represent the under 50's University educated, City dwellers. That is their core vote now. Which is a rather large overlap with the remain vote.
If you looked closely at what you, yourself, posted, you'll notice that that was 2015. Not the last GE then!!!
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/e ... sed-brexit

Ok - this states 3 quarters of Labour voters in 2017 were remain voters. Not really sure why this is being discussed. We clearly know that the vast majority of Labour members and supporters NOW are remain voters.

It isn't even worth discussing. We know that some Labour supporters traditionally are Brexit supporters - but they aren't voting for Corbyn's Labour regardless.
Well, two problems with that
1st: Warren's seat by seat analysis was London based.
2nd: the article itself headlines they'd be no change in the majority for leave.

I agree, it's not worth discussing.
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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:08 pm

..just an hour and an half 'til weasel May weasels out her latest bullshit...
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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:15 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:06 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:55 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:48 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:36 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:31 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:30 am
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:05 pm
Latest published poll.
1,262 Tory party members:
16% supported May's deal
23% want renegotiation
50% No Deal leavers
7% no Brexiteer's
3% second referendum.

Mmmm, I wonder what Labour membership percentages would be, especially as grass root Labour voters supported Leave!

Bring it on.
Polling has shown that 70% of Labour voters at the last GE want to remain.
Really! I think not.
Sorry it was 65%. https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/ar ... tain-voted

But still...

86% of Labour members want a 2nd referendum.

https://www.ft.com/content/dc56ee36-bea ... 6dfef1b89a

There is a shift in politics. Labour now represent the under 50's University educated, City dwellers. That is their core vote now. Which is a rather large overlap with the remain vote.
If you looked closely at what you, yourself, posted, you'll notice that that was 2015. Not the last GE then!!!
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/e ... sed-brexit

Ok - this states 3 quarters of Labour voters in 2017 were remain voters. Not really sure why this is being discussed. We clearly know that the vast majority of Labour members and supporters NOW are remain voters.

It isn't even worth discussing. We know that some Labour supporters traditionally are Brexit supporters - but they aren't voting for Corbyn's Labour regardless.
Well, two problems with that
1st: Warren's seat by seat analysis was London based.
2nd: the article itself headlines they'd be no change in the majority for leave.

I agree, it's not worth discussing.
Do you seriously think there are a significant number of Brexiteers who voted for Corbyn's Labour in the last GE? I accept in some Northern seats there is a "traditional" vote and there may be SOME overlap. But the vast majority of Brexiteers (especially staunch ones) even if they came from the Labour side initially aren't voting for THIS Labour party as they are a totally different party and representative of an entirely different demographic than Northern working man (actually they are a good fit policy wise for them but a bad fit in presentation and emphasis). Corbyn spends his time speaking to students. And middle classes in London....

The Tories had the largest number of Brexit voters - for obvious reasons. I mean Brexit was hijacked in the main by the right - it COULD have been something equally supported by right and left but it wasn't - mainly because Corbyn and his cronies got boxed in and took too long to get out.

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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:20 pm

Nobody knows whether the government can delay the motion without a parliamentary vote agreeing to it....there is confusion - might be up to the speaker.

But hey don't worry boys - we're getting our sovereignty then none of this will matter. It will all be under our own control....oh wait......

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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:40 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:20 pm
Nobody knows whether the government can delay the motion without a parliamentary vote agreeing to it....there is confusion - might be up to the speaker.

But hey don't worry boys - we're getting our sovereignty then none of this will matter. It will all be under our own control....oh wait......
We would be... If our politicians (Labour, Liberal, and Conservative) weren't self serving, careerist, weasel tosspots, with no real regard for Democracy (except, like you, when it suits them)...
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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Prufrock » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:53 pm

I think that's all harsh on TM. I think she's a bit useless, but I don't think there's any real motivation of self regard in what she does. The idea she is a staunch remainder is a bit wide, at the time the prevailing view was she was a leaver who had been reluctantly talked around.

I think her belief is that this is what has been voted for and she needs to plod along and keep pushing it through. If she just keeps going some sort of fudged solution will present itself.

As I say, I don't think she's done it very well but the idea this is some sort of Machiavellian game one way or the other is miles away.
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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by TANGODANCER » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:00 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:37 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:08 pm
Without commenting on the rights and wrongs of it all, I had to laugh at (?) claiming "Bring it back to the people!"..waves clenched fist above head to audience. If you want to gain support for anything, always pretend you're on the side of "the people". What about those who totally disagree? Are they not "the people" ?. Weakest bandwaggon banner ever, yet still they trot it out with Joan of Arc fervour shining out of their eyes......as I said, I laughed at the brazen bullshxtery of manipulative campaigning. :lol:
You realise the reason it has been called the "people's vote" is to distinguish it from the Parliamentary votes don't you? Anyhow May is ducking the vote. Running away. As per.....
Of course I don't ...The "people" can't even agree politics on a football forum....was my point. No need for the lectures. Parliament is composed of "aliens" then? I think France might be "bringing it back to the people" right about now. Shall we join them...?
The wisest and the best of men, nay, the wisest and best of their actions, may be rendered ridiculous by a person whose first object in life is a joke...Darcy. Pride and Prejudice.

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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:03 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:53 pm
I think that's all harsh on TM. I think she's a bit useless, but I don't think there's any real motivation of self regard in what she does. The idea she is a staunch remainder is a bit wide, at the time the prevailing view was she was a leaver who had been reluctantly talked around.

I think her belief is that this is what has been voted for and she needs to plod along and keep pushing it through. If she just keeps going some sort of fudged solution will present itself.

As I say, I don't think she's done it very well but the idea this is some sort of Machiavellian game one way or the other is miles away.
Disagree. Her strongest mandate to go back and negotiate is to put it through a vote see a huge defeat then say "look if you don't want no deal here's what we need".

Not putting it to a vote is simply and purely because she knows she puts her own position at even greater risk.

She could have faced down her own MPs 2 years ago. She could have stood up and taken risks and got through this earlier. She hasn't because at every point she's simply taken the choice of "clinging on a bit longer". She's "kicked the can down the road as far as she possibly can" is the phrase the political arses use on twitter. Which she has. But she's let it fester rather than taking a risk.

She wants us to think she's the next Thatcher, but the truth is she's more a whimpering Major, unable to tame the beasts behind her and unwilling to accept she might need support elsewhere. If she'd faced this off I think the British people might have more respect for her. But as it is - she's lost everybody's respect and looked as far from strong and stable as you can.

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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:05 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:00 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:37 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:08 pm
Without commenting on the rights and wrongs of it all, I had to laugh at (?) claiming "Bring it back to the people!"..waves clenched fist above head to audience. If you want to gain support for anything, always pretend you're on the side of "the people". What about those who totally disagree? Are they not "the people" ?. Weakest bandwaggon banner ever, yet still they trot it out with Joan of Arc fervour shining out of their eyes......as I said, I laughed at the brazen bullshxtery of manipulative campaigning. :lol:
You realise the reason it has been called the "people's vote" is to distinguish it from the Parliamentary votes don't you? Anyhow May is ducking the vote. Running away. As per.....
Of course I don't ...The "people" can't even agree politics on a football forum....was my point. No need for the lectures. Parliament is composed of "aliens" then? I think France might be "bringing it back to the people" right about now. Shall we join them...?
The point being that a people's vote is inclusive. It includes you and everyone else. I get that you've had a vote and are happy with it, but many on both sides, are not happy with where we are. Would you rather have a definitive say, or leave it up to the MPs to fight for their careers with?

The can of worms was opened and I think we cannot close it. I'd rather the MPs came up with a practical and sensible solution that everyone could rally round. They've had over 2 years though and there hasn't been any sign of that happening. At what point do you say, enough is enough and take a different course of action to resolve it?

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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by TANGODANCER » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:07 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:03 pm

She wants us to think she's the next Thatcher,
Really? That might not go down too well with some....
The wisest and the best of men, nay, the wisest and best of their actions, may be rendered ridiculous by a person whose first object in life is a joke...Darcy. Pride and Prejudice.

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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:11 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:07 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:03 pm

She wants us to think she's the next Thatcher,
Really? That might not go down too well with some....
When she got the job she revelled in being known as a "bloody difficult woman". It was all very Thatcherlike...

Until it became abundantly clear there had to be an off switch somewhere that nobody could find and in its absence there was no way of rebooting it......

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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:14 pm

When Torygraph readers are unhappy you know its bad....

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... 8_brexit12

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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:24 pm

I keep coming back to:
A) it's not a meaningful vote.
and B) its's not about a Brexit Deal. It's about a negotiation to negotiate a Brexit Deal.

Jesus fxcking wept... Just walk away. We leave on March 29th. The world will not cave in... And anybody who argues otherwise is a spineless whingeing wimp of the conspiracy theory type.
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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:47 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:24 pm
I keep coming back to:
A) it's not a meaningful vote.
and B) its's not about a Brexit Deal. It's about a negotiation to negotiate a Brexit Deal.

Jesus fxcking wept... Just walk away. We leave on March 29th. The world will not cave in... And anybody who argues otherwise is a spineless whingeing wimp of the conspiracy theory type.
She really is a tit. She reminds me of Mugabe in her intransigence against all odds, in her self satisfied righteousness.
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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:51 pm

You know its bad when even Corbyns rambling nonsense nails her to the post.

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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:52 pm

So. To recap: yet more bullshit, yet more delay.
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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:56 pm

Bercow really must hate her.....

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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:02 pm

She couldn't deliver a pint of milk.
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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:13 pm

So right now, parliament is debating whether to have a vote to have a vote on whether we negotiate to negotiate a deal. Fxck me sideways.
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