9/11 Conspiracy Theory - Very interesting stuff

[Lennon]

I'm just glad they finally got that thug Abu Musab al-Zarqawi .

Ah, but did they really?

[Montreal Wanderer]

I'm just glad they finally got that thug Abu Musab al-Zarqawi .

Ah, but did they really?

[50sQuiff]

And then there's the who and why? The US government looking for an excuse for a war killed 4,000 of it's own citizens? Presumably they got Bin Laden to admit to it by paying him off and haven't caught him because they aren't really trying?

Perhaps you should take a look at some of the declassified documents from the NSA archive. They make absolutely fascinating reading, and you might also come to realise that anything is possible in an American administration.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/

On page 8 you can find weighing up of the relative merits of blowing up a US warship in Cuban waters or staging a 'Cuban' terror campaign in Miami, in order to predicate a subsequent invasion of Cuba.

A degree of scepticism is healthy, but I find some people's reluctance to countenance any elements of a conspiracy theory reveals an unhealthy lack of scepticism about the role of government and state apparatus. It is this intellectual complacency and ignorance which creates a permissively lawless 'anything goes' environment for foreign policy.

Don't believe in conspiracy theories? You need to read or study more about Putin's meteoric rise to power in Russia and the subsequent levelling of Chechnya and tens of thousands killed for example. You'll find more conspiracy theories than you will be able to handle, and not from cranky bloggers either Mummy. People with PhDs write about conspiracy theories too.

[americantrotter]

In the interest of national security and the well being of american posters I request that this thread be closed. Our government works very hard to keep such things away from us for our own benefit. As a Bush loving people you should comply with my governments wish. Unless of course you are an unholy and godless nation. If this request is not received well, it has been nice knowing you.

[Mar]

Don't believe in conspiracy theories? You need to read or study more about Putin's meteoric rise to power in Russia and the subsequent levelling of Chechnya and tens of thousands killed for example. You'll find more conspiracy theories than you will be able to handle, and not from cranky bloggers either Mummy. People with PhDs write about conspiracy theories too.

Ah, the power of popular theory. It's a case of give the people what they want to hear rather than the truth of the matter. The term spoonfed society springs to mind.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Fine, but what about the building that wasn't even hit by a plane?

There's a section on that in the link I posted.

I don't know though. I'm not a structural engineer.

Yeah, I've read the Popular Mechanics debunk before. As a lay person too, I just find the 'conspiracy' version more persuasive (in relation to the towers). You will note that PM don't address just how quickly the buildings fell from top to bottom.

[50sQuiff]

Regarding 'expert' opinions, it is possible to find an eminent expert to argue any point of view. One only had to watch Panorama this week and you would have seen the leaked memos, heard from the gagged scientists and heard from the man charged with the task of shaping Republican strategy on climate change.

And that's not to cut emissions by the way. That is to stifle credible scientific research, sack key scientists, censor their reports and promote and publicise sceptical scientists and disseminate corrupt science to the public at large. Bush said two weeks ago "the fundamental debate is whether Global Warming is man made or not". "Not in the Scientific community it's not," said a staggered scientist.

I'm not suggesting anyone become a cranky nerd conspiracy theorist, but I think a healthy dose of scepticism about the role of government is in order.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I'm not suggesting anyone become a cranky nerd conspiracy theorist, but I think a healthy dose of scepticism about the role of government is in order.

To be honest, I went a bit too far in my description of the 'nerdy cranks' in order to demonstrate that I don't naturally go in for 'this sort of thing'. There's nothing wrong with these guys doing their best to research something when the facts don't appear to add up.

I admit that it is probable that nothing went on on 9/11 that we don't know about, but it doesn't do any harm for governments to know that not everybody will automatically assume that they are telling the truth.

[a1]

if i drop a burning newspaper inside a house, why does the whole building burn down , and not just things made out of wood? why does the dvd player go up in flames ? , paint burn from the walls , bottle of turps kept under the sink 'disappear' eh? , why does the bath fall through the burnt floor ?

maybe the laws of thermodynamics dont give a feck ?..

maybe newtons laws of motion mean things inside buildings dont weigh anything ?..

maybe them world centre skyscrapers are still there and its a trick with mirrors?

wouldnt piss on the 'hippy bastards' if they were on fire , i'd just ask "what's the difference between the temperature skin burns at verses the temperature your woolen 'bliar' jumper is burning? if one is more than the other how come theyre both melting/onfire/disapearing ?

FOR REAL MY HOME RUNS

[communistworkethic]

And then there's the who and why? The US government looking for an excuse for a war killed 4,000 of it's own citizens? Presumably they got Bin Laden to admit to it by paying him off and haven't caught him because they aren't really trying?

Perhaps you should take a look at some of the declassified documents from the NSA archive. They make absolutely fascinating reading, and you might also come to realise that anything is possible in an American administration.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/

On page 8 you can find weighing up of the relative merits of blowing up a US warship in Cuban waters or staging a 'Cuban' terror campaign in Miami, in order to predicate a subsequent invasion of Cuba.

A degree of scepticism is healthy, but I find some people's reluctance to countenance any elements of a conspiracy theory reveals an unhealthy lack of scepticism about the role of government and state apparatus. It is this intellectual complacency and ignorance which creates a permissively lawless 'anything goes' environment for foreign policy.

Don't believe in conspiracy theories? You need to read or study more about Putin's meteoric rise to power in Russia and the subsequent levelling of Chechnya and tens of thousands killed for example. You'll find more conspiracy theories than you will be able to handle, and not from cranky bloggers either Mummy. People with PhDs write about conspiracy theories too.

There's a differnce between a "conspiracy theory" and ignorance of clear ethnic cleansing by the west for political reasons. And people with PHD's can also be cranks.

The ability of the US administration to use it's own citizens is no surprise to me; anthrax in grand central station, syphilis on black folk, lsd given to army grunts, people marked as poltical concerns because of the books they buy.......

However, the events of 9/11 have been shown time and time again by people who are experts in the field to be fair and reasonable results of the circumstances. Conspiracy theories perpetuate on the exclusion of all the relevant information, taking only what supports their stance. With something like 9/11 the conspiracy theory is often a manefestation of the denial phase of grieving.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

However, the events of 9/11 have been shown time and time again by people who are experts in the field to be fair and reasonable results of the circumstances.

When?

I think a fair bit of the conspiracy theorists' material can be explained away, but I don't remember seeing it done comprehensively, and certainly not 'time and time again'.

Apart from the fact that the 3 towers very much appear to appear to have been felled by controlled explosions, I haven't yet heard a plausible account of how these Arab terrorists got be so damn accurate with huge commercial planes they had never flown before.

[communistworkethic]

if someone can do the Krpton factor "landing a jumbo jet" test with no practice then taking a big run up at hitting a massive tower block shouldn't be too hard.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

if someone can do the Krpton factor "landing a jumbo jet" test with no practice then taking a big run up at hitting a massive tower block shouldn't be too hard.

Well there's that, obviously, but it certainly appears that the pilots pulled off some extremely impressive manoeuvres to get them on course for the towers in the first place. Not to mention the fact that they flew straight to New York, presumably without the assistance of the country's air traffic systems.

The point about the Pentagon that interests me the most as well has nothing to do with the diameter of any holes, but rather that some amateur pilot managed to pitch it right into the base of the building without skidding into the ground first or something. I don't know, maybe it's easier than it looks flying these massive planes. And why haven't the security tapes that seem likely to identify beyond doubt what flew into the Pentagon been released? What harm could that possibly do anybody? And why doesn't the world's richest power have more and better cameras at its famous military HQ?

[keveh]

And why haven't the security tapes that seem likely to identify beyond doubt what flew into the Pentagon been released? What harm could that possibly do anybody? And why doesn't the world's richest power have more and better cameras at its famous military HQ?

lol, I thought that as well, there is no way the only type of camera outside the pentagon only had a few second refresh rate.

[communistworkethic]

if someone can do the Krpton factor "landing a jumbo jet" test with no practice then taking a big run up at hitting a massive tower block shouldn't be too hard.

Well there's that, obviously, but it certainly appears that the pilots pulled off some extremely impressive manoeuvres to get them on course for the towers in the first place. Not to mention the fact that they flew straight to New York, presumably without the assistance of the country's air traffic systems.

The point about the Pentagon that interests me the most as well has nothing to do with the diameter of any holes, but rather that some amateur pilot managed to pitch it right into the base of the building without skidding into the ground first or something. I don't know, maybe it's easier than it looks flying these massive planes. And why haven't the security tapes that seem likely to identify beyond doubt what flew into the Pentagon been released? What harm could that possibly do anybody? And why doesn't the world's richest power have more and better cameras at its famous military HQ?

it did hit the ground first and it was at a pitch where a wing hit the ground too.

The tapes do identify what hit it, some tapes have only been released recently. Irrespective of the tapes, big pieces of aeroplane sat scattered on the ground and in the building kind of give a big clue as to what hit it.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

it did hit the ground first and it was at a pitch where a wing hit the ground too.

The tapes do identify what hit it, some tapes have only been released recently. Irrespective of the tapes, big pieces of aeroplane sat scattered on the ground and in the building kind of give a big clue as to what hit it.

It pretty much pitched right into the base of the Pentagon. The only film there is shows that. I haven't seen any tapes other than the poor quality Pentagon effort, so if you have, then please direct me to them.

I agree that it was overwhelmingly likely to have been a plane. But, the FBI do seem to have collected any footage available very quickly and it hasn't been since. It's enough to make one wonder.

[communistworkethic]

it did hit the ground first and it was at a pitch where a wing hit the ground too.

The tapes do identify what hit it, some tapes have only been released recently. Irrespective of the tapes, big pieces of aeroplane sat scattered on the ground and in the building kind of give a big clue as to what hit it.

It pretty much pitched right into the base of the Pentagon. The only film there is shows that. I haven't seen any tapes other than the poor quality Pentagon effort, so if you have, then please direct me to them.

I agree that it was overwhelmingly likely to have been a plane. But, the FBI do seem to have collected any footage available very quickly and it hasn't been since. It's enough to make one wonder.

Is that a big enough piece of plane for you?

[keveh]

Some interesting photo's I've never seen before:

http://www.zombietime.com/wtc_9-13-2001/

[Harry Genshaw]

Been reading this post with great interest. I'm sure most of the theories are bobbins but there are some things that just havent been rationally explained. The biggest one for me is why were no black box recorders recovered? I'd never heard of this happening before (not to say it hasnt), but 4 flights and not one recoverable black box strikes me as really odd. Particularly that one of the hijackers passports was supposedly recovered from the debris.

Dont suppose we'll ever know the full truth but if it was as large a conspiracy as some people claim, surely independent filmmakers like the chap in the links posted on here, would have been bumped off or conveniently disappeared?

[Montreal Wanderer]

Been reading this post with great interest. I'm sure most of the theories are bobbins but there are some things that just havent been rationally explained. The biggest one for me is why were no black box recorders recovered? I'd never heard of this happening before (not to say it hasnt), but 4 flights and not one recoverable black box strikes me as really odd. Particularly that one of the hijackers passports was supposedly recovered from the debris.

Dont suppose we'll ever know the full truth but if it was as large a conspiracy as some people claim, surely independent filmmakers like the chap in the links posted on here, would have been bumped off or conveniently disappeared?

They recovered both boxes from Flight 93 that crashed in Pennsylvania, Harry.