Oh just lay off crouch will you

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Easy start to the season? Hmmmmmmmm...
Sunderland, eh? Great example, you'll notice we haven't played them yet but you have, that really shows how much of an easy start we've had.

Indeed, well noticed that you haven't played Sunderland and we have. And seeing as you've taken exception to my use of 'being in the shake-up' as an analogy for those that were in the European places last time round, shall we deal in your favourite commodity of 'facts'?

If you substitute the three promoted teams for last years three relegated teams, you'll notice that you have played 6 of the bottom 7 clubs from last years Premiership Table in the fixture list that you have quoted, compared to our count of two.

That is what I mean by having an 'easier' start to the season. Plain enough to see?

Taking that analogy something further, only 3 of your games have come against teams that didn't finish in the bottom 11 last year. Two of those luminaries are the mighty mighty Man City who have obviously been setting the Premiership alight this term with their consistency, and the season's real surprise package of Everton, who are performing well beyond expectations.

That's what I mean by having an 'easier' start to the season. Sorry to be condescending, but are you with me now? Surely you cannot refute that those facts constitute an 'easier' start to the Premiership season?

Chip on shoulder? Hmm from a supporter of a team that basically had the rules of the Champion's League changed because they were crying "but it's not fair, we are the scousers, everybody loves us for our great sense of humour and community spirit, we are so down trodden, do it for the dockers and the baby chicken, ah aye la" all summer, that's a bit rich.

For what it's worth, I agree with you. If UEFA had turned round to us and said 'bollocks to you, them's the rules and you aren't staying in the competition' then we'd've had feck all to retort with. It was more the wooly worded directive of the FA that gave rise to the problem, but anyway, that's not really the main debate. (And neither's this start of the season stuff, actually, but we appear to have side-tracked ourselves).

and Crouch was suspended not injured, all that shows is that he's not even appeared in all your games. Yes I was aware he was sub too

I've seen extended hi-lights of all Liverpool's games this season, now given they really only show the good bits, that should give me an idea of all the good stuff Crouch has done. Yeah he brings something different to your team, he's tall but not the best in the air, doesn't have the pace of Cisse or the skill of Morientes. I don't think he actually adds anything to you.

Not even appeared in all our games? And yet people are slating him for not scoring in the league already? I'm sorry but you can't have your cake and eat it - either it's "He's not been in the team, so why's he playing for England" or "He still hasn't scored for youse lot", it doesn't cut both ways.

And fair enough for watching the highlights, but contradicting yourself a tad, no? (See the bold bits) See my earlier defence on him (page 1 or 2 I think). I would argue that watching him for 90 minutes every other week (or whatever it is with all these Champions League matches and stuff) I would argue that he does bring something to the team, and Rafa plays him against opposition in a way where he will be effective. Note that he used the pace of Cissé early on against Aston Villa to create problems, and then once the defence had sat back to negate that threat he brought on Crouch with 15 or 20 mins to go and he ended up getting into a good goal-scoring position on more than one occasion, and somewhat indirectly led to the 2nd goal and also won the penalty for the first. Hardly the contribution of someone that adds nothing to the team, no?

And to quote me, "Fancy quotes from those much wiser than you don't make you intelligent, they make you someone who can read a book but can't think of much insightful themselves."

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I like facts too - do we have a stat on how many assists crouching Peter has had this season?

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I like facts too - do we have a stat on how many assists crouching Peter has had this season?

Only the two at Villa spring to mind, assuming we're talking about 'Key Contributions' as the Telegraph would word it in their fantasy footie. There may be one or two more, but it's late and my brain is addled. Oh, if we're talking all comps then there's probably a couple in the Champions League as well, certainly one in the qualis that I can think of where he played the ball in for Cissé (away to Kaunas, I think)...

I need sleep and morning comes early - to be continued (I'm sure)

[plodder]

The bookies had commie in an early lead but a suprising retort from the newcomer had them all reaching for the cloths and marker pens.

Tune in soon for round 2 or is it 3.




On a personal note £7m for Crouch is still one of the funniest things I read all summer.

[communistworkethic]

Easy start to the season? Hmmmmmmmm...
Sunderland, eh? Great example, you'll notice we haven't played them yet but you have, that really shows how much of an easy start we've had.

Indeed, well noticed that you haven't played Sunderland and we have. And seeing as you've taken exception to my use of 'being in the shake-up' as an analogy for those that were in the European places last time round, shall we deal in your favourite commodity of 'facts'?

If you substitute the three promoted teams for last years three relegated teams, you'll notice that you have played 6 of the bottom 7 clubs from last years Premiership Table in the fixture list that you have quoted, compared to our count of two.

That is what I mean by having an 'easier' start to the season. Plain enough to see?

Taking that analogy something further, only 3 of your games have come against teams that didn't finish in the bottom 11 last year. Two of those luminaries are the mighty mighty Man City who have obviously been setting the Premiership alight this term with their consistency, and the season's real surprise package of Everton, who are performing well beyond expectations.

That's what I mean by having an 'easier' start to the season. Sorry to be condescending, but are you with me now? Surely you cannot refute that those facts constitute an 'easier' start to the Premiership season?

and Crouch was suspended not injured, all that shows is that he's not even appeared in all your games. Yes I was aware he was sub too

I've seen extended hi-lights of all Liverpool's games this season, now given they really only show the good bits, that should give me an idea of all the good stuff Crouch has done. Yeah he brings something different to your team, he's tall but not the best in the air, doesn't have the pace of Cisse or the skill of Morientes. I don't think he actually adds anything to you.

Not even appeared in all our games? And yet people are slating him for not scoring in the league already? I'm sorry but you can't have your cake and eat it - either it's "He's not been in the team, so why's he playing for England" or "He still hasn't scored for youse lot", it doesn't cut both ways.

Teams played - facts ? You've decided who's going to be top and bottom already, I purely mirrored your line of supposition. And how are the promoted teams doing? Only Sunderland struggling really and you've played them, not us. How easy must that game have been??? Good to see you put a sackful past them what with it being such as easy game, oh 1-0? What happened there then? Was it a tougher game in reality? What? Against the bottom team? Surely not.

Not played all the games - not good enough to get in your first team against 1 player whose only approach is hit and hope and another whose bottle has gone - not justifying selection for England on this season's performance.


Now the bit in bold - " he brings something different, he's tall" there you go that's the difference; "he's tall", it was quite clear if you read what I wrote. "doesn't add anything", well clearly that being separated from the relevant parts by a full stop caused you a few issues. He's not as quick as Cisse & not as skillful as Morientes, oh and "but isn't great in the air", so he's different but doesn't add anything. Not a difficult concept I would have hoped for someone that quotes Voltaire. You see if you signed Steven Hawking he would be different but he wouldn't add much to the team, unless of course the origin of the universe got you 3 points. mmmmm i just love cake, tasty tasty cake, mmmmm mmmmm mmmmmmm. yummy yummy yummy cake in my tummy.

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I like facts too - do we have a stat on how many assists crouching Peter has had this season?

Only the two at Villa spring to mind, assuming we're talking about 'Key Contributions' as the Telegraph would word it in their fantasy footie. There may be one or two more, but it's late and my brain is addled. Oh, if we're talking all comps then there's probably a couple in the Champions League as well, certainly one in the qualis that I can think of where he played the ball in for Cissé (away to Kaunas, I think)...

I need sleep and morning comes early - to be continued (I'm sure)

Just another quick thought on this, he challenged for the ball that subsequently dropped to Pongolle that he then chipped over the Betis 'keeper (whose name I cannot recall), and also played a superb reverse pass to put Zenden away before he crossed for Garcia to score in the same game (Betis away). If any more present themselves to memory then I'll add them - will have to have a look at the goals we've scored this season to check though, probably...

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Teams played - facts ? You've decided who's going to be top and bottom already, I purely mirrored your line of supposition. And how are the promoted teams doing?

Not at all, I have not decided who's top and bottom already, only stated a fact to support my argument that you have effectively played 6 of the 7 'worst' teams from last year compared to our two. Furthermore surely it stands to reason that West Ham or West Brom (as examples) will provide a less stern test than, say, Man Utd, Boro or Chelsea...

Good to see you put a sackful past them what with it being such as easy game, oh 1-0? What happened there then? Was it a tougher game in reality? What? Against the bottom team? Surely not.

Indeed, it wasn't the best performance. Admittedly they were awful and we weren't much better. I can't be arsed going and getting all the stats but I hope you will take my assertion that we dominated them, without really pressing home our advantage?

In a similar vein, might I pass on kudos for your opening home game of the season, and for being the only team that Everton beat domestically in the first two months of the season. That must have been a real toughie as they went on to prove in their next half a dozen games or so, sweeping all before them with a dazzling array of 0 league goals until 23rd of October and not winning a game until the 29th...people in glass houses, etc etc.

Not played all the games - not good enough to get in your first team against 1 player whose only approach is hit and hope and another whose bottle has gone - not justifying selection for England on this season's performance.

If you can find where I said he deserves to definitely play for England then well done to you. I feel his performances have been ok, some have been better than average and some haven't. I've not seen enough of other strikers in the Premiership to realistically compare him to the likes of Davies or Bent and their relative merits, however I could possibly justify his inclusion in early squads over Bent as there are similar strikers to him in the squad already, while Crouch offers 'something different'.

And surely by 'bringing something different' he is 'adding something'? Maybe it's a case of semantics and maybe I misunderstood your intention, but the option of the 'Big Man' up front is something that we didn't have before and now do. That I would call 'adding something'; even if you do not rate his 'skills' as better than our other two big name strikers, he offers a variety in tactics and approach that we didn't have before.

And, as I have pointed out, he has come on in games (or started) and made a positive difference with his presence (Betis away and Villa being two examples) and I believe that these are games that without him we would not have won. I think that Rafa is actually doing a reasonable job in 'rotating' (much as I hate that word) his strikers, even playing Pongolle to good effect on occasion. Horses for courses, and all that.

[CrazyHorse]

Horses for courses, and all that.

Why drag me into it?

[communistworkethic]

In a similar vein, might I pass on kudos for your opening home game of the season, and for being the only team that Everton beat domestically in the first two months of the season. That must have been a real toughie as they went on to prove in their next half a dozen games or so, sweeping all before them with a dazzling array of 0 league goals until 23rd of October and not winning a game until the 29th...people in glass houses, etc etc.

And you've played 5 of the bottom 8, it's harder for you to play teams below you as there are so many less of them - you making the 9th bottom team. So a much harder start for you, oh I admit it - you playing your fellow strugglers, every one a 6-pointer in the relegation battle! A point away and win at home is what managers aim for - your 2 0-0 results away would surely be testament to that. Your 2-2 at home to Birmingham must have been a real filip to the team. Ah Everton, yes a game we totally dominated and yet in true scouser style they robbed- you see it cuts both ways.

If you can find where I said he deserves to definitely play for England then well done to you. I feel his performances have been ok, some have been better than average and some haven't. I've not seen enough of other strikers in the Premiership to realistically compare him to the likes of Davies or Bent and their relative merits, however I could possibly justify his inclusion in early squads over Bent as there are similar strikers to him in the squad already, while Crouch offers 'something different'.

I never said you did, merely that you've tried to justify his place above Davies in the basis of your games being somewhat of a cauldron compared to our damp squibs. You may have noticed KD has been knocking the beejesus out of Premiership defences for 3 seasons. Whereas Crouch has had 1 good season and a very unremarkable start to this one against some average sides.

And surely by 'bringing something different' he is 'adding something'? Maybe it's a case of semantics and maybe I misunderstood your intention, but the option of the 'Big Man' up front is something that we didn't have before and now do. That I would call 'adding something'; even if you do not rate his 'skills' as better than our other two big name strikers, he offers a variety in tactics and approach that we didn't have before.

The only difference he really brings is height, height which he doesn't actually use that well. There are players 6 inches shorter (and more) that are better headers of the ball than him. He's not as quick and not as skillful as other players you have. He adds height I grant you but not value in the sense that you're better in any way with him. Betis & Villa you suggest he made a difference but that's two games out of 15 you've played this season and I don't believe in either it was his height that did it for you. You could have a player with no legs, that's different, he could possibly add the greatest ability to crawl in the world but it wouldn't necessarily make you any better.

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And you've played 5 of the bottom 8, it's harder for you to play teams below you as there are so many less of them - you making the 9th bottom team. So a much harder start for you, oh I admit it - you playing your fellow strugglers, every one a 6-pointer in the relegation battle! A point away and win at home is what managers aim for - your 2 0-0 results away would surely be testament to that. Your 2-2 at home to Birmingham must have been a real filip to the team.

Touché on the sarcasm, sir, touché. Or should that be touchy?

Like I have said previously, we are in the bottom half owing to the fact that we have played one or two less games (depending on the team) than every other club in the division. Six of the sides above us, including yourselves, have played 2 more games.

And as for our draws away from home against Boro and Birmingham (yes, Birmingham was away and not at home) I personally am somewhat pleased with them. While we deserved to win both games (dominating Boro without scoring and letting in silly goals against Brum) these were both games that we lost last year, and Birmingham in somewhat spectacular fashion. We were fecking awful there last year, and the fact that I paid more for my Birmingham ticket than I did for either my Istanbul or League Cup Final ticket only makes it worse.

Like for like on last year (substituting the promoted with the relegated teams) we are actually 4 points better off in the respective fixtures, and that's despite poor performances like losing to Fulham away. Bolton, on the other hand are 1 point worse off than in their respective fixtures. What's more, we have a run of games coming up where, hopefully, we will see further improvement - Portsmouth at home and Man City away where we only managed to glean a total of 1 point last year. So if you wish to be smug and sanctimonious about our start to the season (and you wouldn't be alone, the media have loved the fact that we've made our 'worst ever' start to the Premiership season) that's your prerogative. Personally I am much more upbeat about the situation than the doom and gloom merchants and the johnny-come-lately gloryhunters that we appear to be attracting. Improvements are being made, and extrapolating the data from the season so far (with roughly a 1/3 of games played) we'll be a good 10-15 points better off at the end of it, and that suits me just fine.

You may have noticed KD has been knocking the beejesus out of Premiership defences for 3 seasons. Whereas Crouch has had 1 good season and a very unremarkable start to this one against some average sides.

To be frank, no, I haven't really noticed Davies 'knocking the beejesus' out of defences, but then I wouldn't have not watching him week in week out in any sort of depth. Yes I could acknowledge that he's been an effective striker, and could even go off and find his stats for goals scored or appearances, but I can't say that, other than your games against us and selected others, I have seen that much of him.

I can't deny the fact that Crouch has only had '1 good season' to Davies 3 (and I'm taking your word on that) but then when does history matter when picking an International squad?

Kevin Phillips was one of the most prolific strikers of his time, in both his promotion season and his first year up with Sunderland in which he bagged more than 20 odd goals, and yet he never made the grade at international level. Ditto that for many players who have been in and around the reckoning for the squad (players like Marcus Stewart or Michael Ricketts).

Like I said in a previous post, there has to be some reason why Benitez would splash out £7m on Crouch, and why Sven would pick him for England, and I think that we should trust people who have a more in-depth knowledge and access to more information than ourselves. Yes the players that they pick may not be our favourites, and we may not always understand the reasoning or 'master plan' behind it, but I'd back someone who has worked in football for 20 years or more and has stuff like ProZone at his disposal than you or me with our season tickets and sky subscriptions.

Yes players can play poorly and yes some signings don't work, and when that happens then players and managers get barracked, but every signing, even the 'sure things' are gambles. Players whom you'd've thought would be ideally suited to a club or role sometimes just don't work out. And those who have criticised Crouch thus far are doing so in far too much haste, in my opinion. Like you say, he's played a dozen or so games so far, but these have been in a new team, with new team-mates, and may I add under far much more pressure and attention than he has ever been used to. Would you accept criticism of yourself a couple of weeks in to a new job because you were unfamiliar with the systems and personnel you were working with?

The only difference he really brings is height, height which he doesn't actually use that well. There are players 6 inches shorter (and more) that are better headers of the ball than him. He's not as quick and not as skillful as other players you have. He adds height I grant you but not value in the sense that you're better in any way with him. Betis & Villa you suggest he made a difference but that's two games out of 15 you've played this season and I don't believe in either it was his height that did it for you. You could have a player with no legs, that's different, he could possibly add the greatest ability to crawl in the world but it wouldn't necessarily make you any better.

I would agree that there are better headers of the ball than Crouch (and at no time have I stressed that I thought he was the best header of the ball, even in the Liverpool squad). As for the point about his height not making the difference, I would disagree. It was his aerial presence that led to the consternation from which Pongolle profited. Against Aston Villa do you think he would have been given such attention and fouled by Ridgewell if he was of Owen-esque stature? I doubt it. Oh, and speaking of Owen, when the ball came into the box in the dying minutes of the Argentina match who was the striker that was marked allowing him the space to get a header on goal? Yes he might not be the best header of the ball, but when someone's shaping up a cross or a freekick or a corner, you can bet your bollocks that Peter Crouch will have a man-marker, which in turn leaves more space for others. You just can't leave that freak alone (a term I use affectionately, by the way) when the balls are coming in to the box.

And while I appreciate the point you are trying to make, your arguments about Stephen Hawking or players with no legs do you no favours.

[hisroyalgingerness]

way too much time

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way too much time

meh, work are paying for it. it's not as if I've anything else to do

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

way too much time

Indeed, and yet nobody can be bothered finding me the number of actual assists the lad has had...

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Indeed, and yet nobody can be bothered finding me the number of actual assists the lad has had...

Well I've pointed out what I would call 5 'key contributions' to goals - how many of them you'd call an assist I don't know.

I'll just have to watch through our goals from the season so far to see if there are others that I can't remember off the top of my head, but I've a feeling we've scored something like 33 so far in all competitions, so 5 out of them would be something like a 1 in 5 ratio when you take off the ones that he wasn't on the pitch for.

[hisroyalgingerness]

why not go off fantasy football points?

[keveh]

has anybody mentioned that Crouch nearly wrestled Owen away from that cross at the weekend?

[Soldier_Of_The_White_Army]

has anybody mentioned that Crouch nearly wrestled Owen away from that cross at the weekend?

And was unable to do so!!

Now THATS lightwieght

[blurred]

why not go off fantasy football points?

Because they don't include Champions League/Cup games where he's actually been used more often than in the League (owing to injury and suspension)?

I'll tot up any key contributions later on this evening.

[CrazyHorse]

Because they don't include Champions League/Cup games where he's actually been used more often than in the League (owing to injury and suspension)?

Come on, try to keep up! How d'you expect to win the argument when your facts are incorrect?

Owing hasn't played for Liverpool for a couple of seasons now, he went to Real Madrid and now he's at Newcastle.

[Soldier_Of_The_White_Army]

Because they don't include Champions League/Cup games where he's actually been used more often than in the League (owing to injury and suspension)?

Come on, try to keep up! How d'you expect to win the argument when your facts are incorrect?

Owing hasn't played for Liverpool for a couple of seasons now, he went to Real Madrid and now he's at Newcastle.

Weak CH, really really weak