Owen Hargreaves - an apology

[keveh]

He is actually probably the best player of the tournament from an England aspect.

No doubt that he is up there, even after only starting two games.

For me, him and Crouch stood out to me. Why we didn't play Rooney and Crouch together is beyond me.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Drop one of the two underperformers and start Hargreaves deep? You bet.

Back to 4-4-2, Joe Cole left, Hargreaves doin' the dirty, plus two of Lamps, Becks and Stevie G - depending on form. Beckham no longer an automatic pick. If Lampard gets back to form, Stevie G right; if not, Stevie central/driving forward - with Lennon pushing Beckham for a start.

Why we didn't play Rooney and Crouch together is beyond me.

Because the First Choice Four don't work as a midfield. Then again, neither does the team as a whole when we play Crouch (bless him, it's not his fault), because all these highly-lauded Golden Generation members take it in turns to welly the ball from everywhere to the approximate vicinity of his head.

[plodder]

In my view we should play

----------------------------Robinson-----------------------------

Neville----------Ferdinand---------Terry------------------Cole

--------------------------Hargreaves-----------------------------

Lennon---------------------Gerrard------------------------Cole

------------------------------Rooney-----------------------------

------------------------------Crouch-----------------------------

Subs....A goalie, Carrick, Carragher, Lampard, Downing, King, Defoe, Nolan, Walcott (he might get a game)

WOuld give us a solid back five, Lots of pace and attacking options and Gerrard at his best feeding forward and Rooney free to do what he wants.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

In my view we should play
----------------------------Robinson-----------------------------
Neville----------Ferdinand---------Terry------------------Cole
--------------------------Hargreaves-----------------------------
Lennon---------------------Gerrard------------------------Cole
------------------------------Rooney-----------------------------
------------------------------Crouch-----------------------------

Subs....A goalie, Carrick, Carragher, Lampard, Downing, King, Defoe, Nolan, Walcott (he might get a game)

WOuld give us a solid back five, Lots of pace and attacking options and Gerrard at his best feeding forward and Rooney free to do what he wants.

Not a bad team at all, Plodder. But anyone found pinging an aimless lazy ball toward Crouch should be made to donate an percentage of an endorsement fee to an England fans' charity. My worry is that, if Gerrard is pushing up, there's no-one in that team (and let me say it's not very far off my own choice of XI) who will pass the ball short and on the ground. Against Portugal, Hargreaves excelled in the defensive-aggressive arts - breaking up attacks, taking up screening positions and showing indefatigable energy. What I'd like to see him add from that is the sensible, quick distribution of a Makelele: ten yards, sideways or forwards, and always available for the same ball back to switch the focus of attack from side to side. As well as having a solid defence - only conceded in one game, remember - we also have good attacking full-backs who can be level with (or in front of) Hargreaves when we're on the ball, giving him the option to unfussily switch the game from one side to t'other, with Rooney and Gerrard always in reasonable reach. Because if we keep having options like that, we won't have to resort to the easily-defendable dullard football of The Big Punt To The Big Guy.

[plodder]

Lennon,Cole and Rooney all play it on the deck. Hargreaves (I still shudder typing that) as the outlet, Ash Cole is always a good outlet if only he stuck to running down the line and not bending inside losing the width.

On you go then DSB, give us the benefit of your wisdom.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Lennon,Cole and Rooney all play it on the deck. Hargreaves (I still shudder typing that) as the outlet, Ash Cole is always a good outlet if only he stuck to running down the line and not bending inside losing the width.

....which makes even less sense given the former tunnel-thumping showpony (all now forgiven of course) in front of him loves to cut inside. Hargreaves' dedication to defence should also encourage Asher C (and G-Nev, or whoever's at RB) to go forward with alacrity.

On you go then DSB, give us the benefit of your wisdom.

How d'you mean, sir? I thought this was an exchange of opinion. As such, I still maintain that with Crouch as a starter, England players get far too easily sucked into the lazy long-ball - just as BW players are forced to pass creatively when they don't have the "Whack it to Davies" option, but default back to little more intelligent than clearing their lines with gormless punts when they have a target to hit.

The main problem against Portugal was that no-one wanted to pass the ball forward except Jar-Jar Ferdinand, and his idea of passing is generally to waft the ball into touch. As I say, your XI isn't far from mine; I'd still be tempted to have Lennon springing from the bench to terrify tired defenders and Crouch as a similar game-changing option late on, but that depends on Lampard rediscovering his form (with Gerrard playing in the wide-right position he's mastered for Liverpool this season) and us finding another striker from somewhere: a pacier one than Crouch, to stretch the game by forcing defences back, unlike Crouch who - for all his undoubted qualities – likes to drop deep and link play, which would encroach on RooneyLand.

[Montreal Wanderer]

In my view we should play

----------------------------Robinson-----------------------------

Neville----------Ferdinand---------Terry------------------Cole

--------------------------Hargreaves-----------------------------

Lennon---------------------Gerrard------------------------Cole

------------------------------Rooney-----------------------------

------------------------------Crouch-----------------------------

Subs....A goalie, Carrick, Carragher, Lampard, Downing, King, Defoe, Nolan, Walcott (he might get a game)

WOuld give us a solid back five, Lots of pace and attacking options and Gerrard at his best feeding forward and Rooney free to do what he wants.

Ah, the old 4-3-1-1 - actually, Plods, that's the exact team and formation I came up with. If we go long ball, Crouch is good at holding up and flick ons for Rooney (he did this well against Portugal but had to flick on to himself). It also give the options of Lennon and Joe Cole (both of whom are quick and clever) crossing to the strikers and Gerrard, or the full backs overlapping to do the same. We might even score a few more goals! There was never much wrong with our defence.

[plodder]

In my view we should play

----------------------------Robinson-----------------------------

Neville----------Ferdinand---------Terry------------------Cole

--------------------------Hargreaves-----------------------------

Lennon---------------------Gerrard------------------------Cole

------------------------------Rooney-----------------------------

------------------------------Crouch-----------------------------

Subs....A goalie, Carrick, Carragher, Lampard, Downing, King, Defoe, Nolan, Walcott (he might get a game)

WOuld give us a solid back five, Lots of pace and attacking options and Gerrard at his best feeding forward and Rooney free to do what he wants.

Ah, the old 4-3-1-1 - actually, Plods, that's the exact team and formation I came up with. If we go long ball, Crouch is good at holding up and flick ons for Rooney (he did this well against Portugal but had to flick on to himself). It also give the options of Lennon and Joe Cole (both of whom are quick and clever) crossing to the strikers and Gerrard, or the full backs overlapping to do the same. We might even score a few more goals! There was never much wrong with our defence.

4+3+1+1=9

But I get the idea.

DSB, opinion exchange I like that........

I am looking for the next competition Euro 08. SO probably have lost Beckham and Neville by then. Owen and Rooney or Crouch and Owen up front then. I just can't get why Lampard and Gerrard didn't take that half a second more on the ball and regain the composure and form we have seen most of the season.

Being frank, even though I'm not a Frank. Hargreaves suprised the hell out of me with his performances, flash in the pan or sustainable? Perhaps SVen wasn't the tactically clueless muppet everyone derides him for for havin gthe faith to stick with little old Owen??

If all else fails we could always have Nolan and Hunt playing for England by then? But wait no, McLaren got the job, it'll be Downing and Defoe then............

[Montreal Wanderer]

4+3+1+1=9

But I get the idea.

Well, that was the red card....
I meant 4-1-3-1-1
Not quite sure what happened to Hargreaves in my post (he's never get a red card, right?), but he's back now.

[Crouch > Davies]

There's no doubt that Rooney's best position is in that hole.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

I am looking for the next competition Euro 08. SO probably have lost Beckham and Neville by then. Owen and Rooney or Crouch and Owen up front then. I just can't get why Lampard and Gerrard didn't take that half a second more on the ball and regain the composure and form we have seen most of the season.

Being frank, even though I'm not a Frank. Hargreaves suprised the hell out of me with his performances, flash in the pan or sustainable? Perhaps SVen wasn't the tactically clueless muppet everyone derides him for for havin gthe faith to stick with little old Owen??

If all else fails we could always have Nolan and Hunt playing for England by then? But wait no, McLaren got the job, it'll be Downing and Defoe then............

In order: Beckham's arguably gone already, but I think Neville could still be good enough at 33; certainly his experience and organisation would be useful if his legs don't go. Can't see any clear replacement coming through - The Times yesterday fatuously suggested Philip Bardsley for SA 2010, presumably because he plays for the rags' reserves, as if the Manchester Buccaneers won't sign a replacement when the Neviller finally hops the twig. Of course now is the season for Nicky Hunt to kick on...

"Owen and Rooney or Owen and Crouch up front by then" - hmm, not sure. For a start, I don't understand why you've dropped Rooney from the second permutation; for a middle, it's not just scaremongering paper-selling to say Owen might never be the same again - unlike say Shearer or Bebe Gardner who've also shredded their knees, his game is based on pace; for an end, who the f--k would've said two years ago that Crouch would be England's best striker?

Why weren't Gerrard and Lampard composed? 'Cos they're under a far less forgiving spotlight in their national shirt, and (this time at least) with a far less able coach. If they were central midfielders for their club, they'd have a forward in front of them and two wide men marauding forward - three times the number of targets. This month, they've mostly had one angry Scouser surrounded by fouling Portugeezers while a fading star looks on from behind his right-back and the left-winger pirouettes ineffectively, and they've been playing in a half-thought-out system with no match practice. Panic would be understandable, rushing things almost inevitable.

Eriksson wasn't completely clueless, but Hargreaves was tainted by association as The Sub Who Comes On When We're Defending A Lead We're Doomed To Lose. As it turns out, Eriksson was right that he's that type of player, but that doesn't make him a great replacement for Steven Gerrard (as happened against Portugal last time IIRC).

It wouldn't surprise me if McClaren does call a few new players up, depending on how big a part he had in previous selection policy (judging by the Walcott rumours, very little until it's too late - Eriksson simply told him the deed was done). One of those new players could be Nobby. After all, there may be a vacancy soon for a hard-running goalscoring central midfielder...

[plodder]

Rooney dropped to an attacking midfielder role, the dreaded diamond with him at the point......

APart from that lets leave it to McClueless to have a go

[Bench]

[Hargreaves] Miles better player than Gattuso by the way.

Did you happen to watch the Italy game last night, Dax?

Gattuso had an amazing game. Superb player. Although after this WC I really rate Hargreaves (despite my earlier misgivings, which were mainly generated because of the Swede's inability to use him in the proper system), I would say that Gattuso is a far more accomplished player.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Gattuso had an amazing game. Superb player. Although after this WC I really rate Hargreaves (despite my earlier misgivings, which were mainly generated because of the Swede's inability to use him in the proper system), I would say that Gattuso is a far more accomplished player.

As I've said either on this thread or a similar one (sorry, too hungover to check), Hargreaves has proven himself adept at breaking up opposition attacks through hard work and good positioning. But to reach the next level (and get anywhere near Gattuso), he has a few things to do – not least, to always be available for the easy 10-yard pass that recycles possession between defence and midfield. Like Makelele, Gattuso quietly excels at this: the game last night was a masterclass in pass-and-move triangles gradually moving up the pitch into enemy territory - even in extra-time. Both sides did this all night without ever feeling the need to launch it at the 6'4" Luca Toni or the 6'3" Miroslav Klose. Our highly-lauded lads need to realise that there's as much glory in that as there is in 60-yard Hollywood balls with a 25% completion rate.