Should Phil Parkinson be sacked?

[BWFC_Insane]

Aye, possibly. I think there are still huge question marks over Parkinson's suitability to establish a second-tier team, especially one that's good to watch. I'm not saying Grayson is any better – just available in case, that's all.

As you say, if we were bankrolled (or did a Wolves/Gestifute thing) then Parky's probably not the man. But what are the odds of that? That said, I'm still struggling to work out what exactly Ken wants - presumably, ideal-world, someone to sign the cheques while he runs the club. And I'm still struggling to work out why someone would give him that, or even put in (say) £30m without ownership. I mean, why?

My argument is I think there is a much larger case for keeping Parky who has worked under the conditions at the club and met his objectives two seasons in a row and has us in a better position by far than the one he took over from, with certainly fewer resources than his predecessor....than there is for hiring a man who has just failed in jobs at Sunderland and Bradford. Sunderland with vastly, vastly larger resources than we have here.

To me such a move would be backwards.

Someone who has vast experience and rarely fails at this level ala Warnock...perhaps there is an argument to make in that case. But Grayson? Not for me. Also has a huge ego that I think would grate in our particular circumstance. And he's walked out on Bradford as their budget isn't big enough. Not for me in a million years.

[jmjhb]

Sunderland 'only' spent 750k though

[BWFC_Insane]

Sunderland 'only' spent 750k though

1.25M is the figure I saw. But even then more than we've spent in over 3 seasons. Plus their wage bill is 4 or 5 times ours.

[Harry Genshaw]

Parky's done everything that was asked of him in incredibly challenging circumstances and deserves to stop on.

My reservation about could he build a good side with more resources is down to the signings he did make. Skint as we were/are is there any excuse for signing Chris Taylor, Jamie Proctor and Stephen Darby? The latter two he'd worked with before!

Interesting fact re Middlesborough DSB. Iirc they got relegated the following year

[bristol_Wanderer3]

It is very tricky. As a supporter, knowing where this club has been in recent times, and what has happened in the last two seasons, I am very grateful to Parky and his team. I think he his a decent chap who exudes stability and it would be great if we could grow bit by bit under him and become competitive in this league. It seems pretty disgusting not to give him a chance to start next season.

If however I was coming into Bolton from a different world having just put tens of millions of pounds in, in the hope of seeing my investment grow by getting to the Prem in the next few years, and I watched videos of all our games from this season I would have the following conclusions:

1.) We haven't been the dominant side in any game this season. Think about that. Maybe the Barnsley and Norwich home games you could argue we were slightly the better side, even though we got outplayed for periods. But you would be watching hours and hours of video of us defending and clinging on in games.

2.) Some games Parky has to take the blame for the way we have set up and then been crushed in the games. I went to the Cardiff and QPR away games, and we set up 3-5-2 with the "2" totally isolated. The midfielders were all defending, and all we did was clear the ball aimlessly and defend. We should've lost both games 6-0, without barely a shot on target over the 180 minutes. It was awful. If any objective person watched those two games back, there would have to be questions about the way the team was set up regardless of other considerations. And I am sure the same could be said for many games in the season, particularly towards the end.

3.) Style of play. Neil Warnock has a very pragmatic style, and he has just done what any investor would want our manager to do, on a medium budget like we would have (assuming this magical benefactor exists). Pulis, McCarthy, Big Sam, all are great managers who play what most would describe as direct/pragmatic. Parky is definitely a believer in this style. Even in the wake of the Forest game, he basically states that his teams must have a target man to play off. And when we were without one this season, he struggled to play any other way. Even with ALF up front on his own, Beevers has been clipping long balls towards him 10-20 times per game. If you are an outside foreign investor, it is likely your knowledge of English football is at least influenced by what you see on TV, and very few teams are lauded for central defenders clipping the ball 50 yards onto the chest of a Gary Madine type figure. Essentially an outside, foreign investor is likely to want his team to be successful and his team to be attractive to watch.

Embargo, issues behind the scenes, enforced sales of our key player are of course all very valid mitigating circumstances, if one is to be charitable. But super wealthy guys from Saudi, China or the USA probably haven't got their wealth by being charitable. I think if there is outside influence on the decision, Parky will be fired. Whilst I would be instinctively very sad about that, I would fully understand any outside, objective person coming to that conclusion.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Interesting fact re Middlesborough DSB. Iirc they got relegated the following year

Aye. That's when Bruce took over (April 86) and the gates were locked. He led Boro to two promotions and a relegation after that, although he was deemed to have "failed" at Millwall (they were mid-table in the second tier) and got sacked - which is how we got him. (Sometimes, "failure" is relative.)

Boro:
84/85 – D2 - 19th
85/86 - D2 - 21st (R)
86/87 - D3 - 2nd (P)
87/88 - D2 - 3rd (P)
88/89 - D1 - 18th (R)

Flitting between the top two divisions, they had another three promotions and two relegations over the next nine years too.

[BWFC_Insane]

It is very tricky. As a supporter, knowing where this club has been in recent times, and what has happened in the last two seasons, I am very grateful to Parky and his team. I think he his a decent chap who exudes stability and it would be great if we could grow bit by bit under him and become competitive in this league. It seems pretty disgusting not to give him a chance to start next season.

If however I was coming into Bolton from a different world having just put tens of millions of pounds in, in the hope of seeing my investment grow by getting to the Prem in the next few years, and I watched videos of all our games from this season I would have the following conclusions:

1.) We haven't been the dominant side in any game this season. Think about that. Maybe the Barnsley and Norwich home games you could argue we were slightly the better side, even though we got outplayed for periods. But you would be watching hours and hours of video of us defending and clinging on in games.

2.) Some games Parky has to take the blame for the way we have set up and then been crushed in the games. I went to the Cardiff and QPR away games, and we set up 3-5-2 with the "2" totally isolated. The midfielders were all defending, and all we did was clear the ball aimlessly and defend. We should've lost both games 6-0, without barely a shot on target over the 180 minutes. It was awful. If any objective person watched those two games back, there would have to be questions about the way the team was set up regardless of other considerations. And I am sure the same could be said for many games in the season, particularly towards the end.

3.) Style of play. Neil Warnock has a very pragmatic style, and he has just done what any investor would want our manager to do, on a medium budget like we would have (assuming this magical benefactor exists). Pulis, McCarthy, Big Sam, all are great managers who play what most would describe as direct/pragmatic. Parky is definitely a believer in this style. Even in the wake of the Forest game, he basically states that his teams must have a target man to play off. And when we were without one this season, he struggled to play any other way. Even with ALF up front on his own, Beevers has been clipping long balls towards him 10-20 times per game. If you are an outside foreign investor, it is likely your knowledge of English football is at least influenced by what you see on TV, and very few teams are lauded for central defenders clipping the ball 50 yards onto the chest of a Gary Madine type figure. Essentially an outside, foreign investor is likely to want his team to be successful and his team to be attractive to watch.

Embargo, issues behind the scenes, enforced sales of our key player are of course all very valid mitigating circumstances, if one is to be charitable. But super wealthy guys from Saudi, China or the USA probably haven't got their wealth by being charitable. I think if there is outside influence on the decision, Parky will be fired. Whilst I would be instinctively very sad about that, I would fully understand any outside, objective person coming to that conclusion.

That is fine if they put the money in, know what they're doing and pick someone who gets results. If they don't it is a dropped bollock and a half.

Would an investor not look at Warnock and reach the conclusion that Parky could very well emulate that given the same resources over a couple of seasons?

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Would an investor not look at Warnock and reach the conclusion that Parky could very well emulate that given the same resources over a couple of seasons?

Might be a bit of a stretch. Much as I can't abide him, Colin's got a few more promotions up his sleeve. Yes, they both knock it long, but that's not a thousand miles from comparing Jose Morais to Pep Guardiola.

An investor would be more likely to wait until Cardiff inevitably turf Warnock by December...

[BWFC_Insane]

Would an investor not look at Warnock and reach the conclusion that Parky could very well emulate that given the same resources over a couple of seasons?

Might be a bit of a stretch. Much as I can't abide him, Colin's got a few more promotions up his sleeve. Yes, they both knock it long, but that's not a thousand miles from comparing Jose Morais to Pep Guardiola.

An investor would be more likely to wait until Cardiff inevitably turf Warnock by December...

But has Parky realistically had a chance yet? He's taken sides up from league one. Has he had a proper go at this level? Be like us potting Allardyce after premiership promotion to get someone who has already kept sides up wouldn't it?

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Would an investor not look at Warnock and reach the conclusion that Parky could very well emulate that given the same resources over a couple of seasons?

Might be a bit of a stretch. Much as I can't abide him, Colin's got a few more promotions up his sleeve. Yes, they both knock it long, but that's not a thousand miles from comparing Jose Morais to Pep Guardiola.

An investor would be more likely to wait until Cardiff inevitably turf Warnock by December...

But has Parky realistically had a chance yet? He's taken sides up from league one. Has he had a proper go at this level? Be like us potting Allardyce after premiership promotion to get someone who has already kept sides up wouldn't it?

It would be more like that than it would be like thinking "Warnock plays long-ball, so does Parky, ergo promotion is assured"

With investors/takeovers it entirely depends how much patience and ego they have. If they want someone, you're on borrowed time at best. That's arguably how we got Parky in the first place, because he suspected Bradford's new owners wanted their compatriot Uwe Rosler.

[TANGODANCER]

Investing means money involved. Money is soulless and a decision would probably be reached by the facts and figures table. In the bank, you're just a number and the bank manager doesn't live in your wardrobe any more. Ken might have no say in any of it.

[Prufrock]

I'm going to post some statistics, but first I have to carefully say that I think Phil Parkinson has done a surprisingly wonderful job, achieving his aim in both seasons, and I do not necessarily think he should be sacked. Indeed, although I was furious last weekend, I never actually changed my vote on this poll and I still haven't. For the record, I think his future is tied up in the bigger issue of who owns/runs the club.

That done, in the hope of not being shouted at, here's an interesting fact, well I think so anyway. There have now been 30 seasons since the second tier went to 24 teams (1988/89 was the first). In those three decades, stretching back to before the Premier League, Italia 90 and the backpass law, no team has survived on as few as 43 points.

True, they could have; the third-bottom team has got 42 or fewer points on seven occasions in the previous 29 (so eight out of 30 now). But it's worth noting that no actual (rather than theoretical) team has had as mathematically poor a season as us and survived in this division since 1985, Heysel time, when Middlesbrough did on 40 - from 42 games, which is still a higher PPG. They're the only second-tier survivors since the introduction in 1981 of 3pts for a win to get a lower points total than us.

Make of that what you will. What I will say is that, whoever's in charge, we can't afford to expect such historic good fortune again.

Oh and one other thing, in related news: Simon Grayson has left Bradford. Not saying he's a better manager, but the news is germane to the thread.

I get the gist but always find those stats a bit reductive. Each season is it's own beast and you finish where you deserve. United fans trying to argue is a weak league this year so city's achievements aren't that great. Well, you go and get 100 points then.

West ham in 03 are the classic "best team ever relegated from the Prem". That same season Sunderland got the joint 4th lowest prem points tally ever. Next season West ham finished below both them and 19th placed West Brom. Past performance is no guarantee of future success and all that.

For me, unlikely levels of investment aside it would be madness to get rid of him.

Don't really buy the whole "proven at this level" thing either. It's the same game. Subjective or not, I'm certain Parky is a better manager than Owen Coyle, but Coyle is more "proven at this level".

He's paid the least in transfer fees, he's had one of the lowest wage bills in the league (a huge portion of which is "stuck" with Amos, Derik and Daren. Plus embargo and his top scorer sold from under him. While time he's been here he's shown an ability to adapt to adversity that is absolutely what it looks like continue to need.

We've seen enough changes where the new person has struggled to do any better. Absolute madness to get rid of him for me. He'd be on the shortlist for manager of the year for me.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

I get the gist but always find those stats a bit reductive. Each season is it's own beast and you finish where you deserve.

Interesting way to look at it. Certainly I'm never impressed by "not won at x since y" – it's a different set of players under a different set of circumstances. But I still don't think it's reductive to compare 46-game seasons in the same tier. Maybe once you go back 10+ years it's different, but then it's just an intriguing yardstick rather than a state-of-the-division assessment.

While we're at it, I'm not having any boo-hoo for Burton. They conceded the most and scored the fewest. They deserved to go down. As I've said (and you sort of imply), your league position is meritocratic.

Whatever the historical pedigree, I'd argue that if you don't average a point per game, you're lucky if you stay up. In most other seasons we'd have been down, quite early: a year ago Blackburn went down with 51 points. The reason we didn't is that several other teams were (also) very poor indeed. We cannot rely on that happening again.

Burton and to some extent Barnsley may have been poor again next season. Blackburn and Wigan are less likely to be. Reading and Birmingham should sort themselves out over summer. Early doors and obviously we've got a lot of questions ourselves but at the moment I'm not finding it easy to name three teams we can finish above next season.

[Prufrock]

I get the gist but always find those stats a bit reductive. Each season is it's own beast and you finish where you deserve.

Interesting way to look at it. Certainly I'm never impressed by "not won at x since y" – it's a different set of players under a different set of circumstances. But I still don't think it's reductive to compare 46-game seasons in the same tier. Maybe once you go back 10+ years it's different, but then it's just an intriguing yardstick rather than a state-of-the-division assessment.

While we're at it, I'm not having any boo-hoo for Burton. They conceded the most and scored the fewest. They deserved to go down. As I've said (and you sort of imply), your league position is meritocratic.

Whatever the historical pedigree, I'd argue that if you don't average a point per game, you're lucky if you stay up. In most other seasons we'd have been down, quite early: a year ago Blackburn went down with 51 points. The reason we didn't is that several other teams were (also) very poor indeed. We cannot rely on that happening again.

Burton and to some extent Barnsley may have been poor again next season. Blackburn and Wigan are less likely to be. Reading and Birmingham should sort themselves out over summer. Early doors and obviously we've got a lot of questions ourselves but at the moment I'm not finding it easy to name three teams we can finish above next season.

Totally agree on the first bit. Any "x team hasn't won away at y" for longer than about 3 years is utterly meaningless IMO.

Final point I also agree with, you certainly can't set out to get 43 points and expect that to be enough, but surely you're always trying to get as many as you can; we're not aiming for 43. You might have certain games you target more than others, but you play each team twice and if you finish with more points than 3 other teams you deserve to stay up.

For me, the difference in one relegation score v the next shows the difference in the gulf between teams within the league rather than how much any team deserved to stay up in a particular year. You could take the last 16 of the Champions League, and the bottom 4 of the Champo in put them in a league, and if we got 18 points I think we'd stay up, and deserve to. The "magical" points total has dropped in the Prem in recent (not that recent) years and reflects the gulf between the top teams and the bottom. Sub 40 is regularly enough these days.

Next season does look tough, though Wigan have failed in this league twice in the last 3 years and Blackburn went down for a reason too. Wouldn't expect either to crash and burn but if either have a poor start I think they'll be in it all year. Ipswich and Reading could go all wrong, and there are a lot of clubs with owners who seem to have got bored. Think we'll struggle again though without investment.

As for Burton, I have no sympathy broadly, they got fewer points than too many teams to deserve to stay up; I do have some sympathy though for the position they were in second half on Sat which must have been mentally horrific. 1-1 v ten men, lose the game and you go below Barnsley and go down, win the game you defo stay up (Barnsley well gone by this point). Draw and you stay up unless Bolton can win who are 1-0 up, then 2-1 down, and still so until the 85th min. Tough decision to take.

[BWFC_Insane]

Would an investor not look at Warnock and reach the conclusion that Parky could very well emulate that given the same resources over a couple of seasons?

Might be a bit of a stretch. Much as I can't abide him, Colin's got a few more promotions up his sleeve. Yes, they both knock it long, but that's not a thousand miles from comparing Jose Morais to Pep Guardiola.

An investor would be more likely to wait until Cardiff inevitably turf Warnock by December...

But has Parky realistically had a chance yet? He's taken sides up from league one. Has he had a proper go at this level? Be like us potting Allardyce after premiership promotion to get someone who has already kept sides up wouldn't it?

It would be more like that than it would be like thinking "Warnock plays long-ball, so does Parky, ergo promotion is assured"

With investors/takeovers it entirely depends how much patience and ego they have. If they want someone, you're on borrowed time at best. That's arguably how we got Parky in the first place, because he suspected Bradford's new owners wanted their compatriot Uwe Rosler.

He left Bradford because the new owners wanted to be too involved and run the club on a shoestring. See why McCall then left, and now Grayson has walked out....

[Hoboh]

It is such a difficult decision now. I wouldn't blame Ken or whoever else might come in either way.

One on the one hand Parky has worked miracles and totally deserves to continue. And if there isn't substantial investment, it seems there are very few who could perform miracles on what will be a 23rd-24th place budget to keep us up again.

On the other if we secure investment and really want to progress and try and challenge at the top end of this league, as any substantial investor would surely demand, has Parky shown any signs that he is the man to do a Neil Warnock, or a David Wagner? Given our budget, even with investment given FFP, would only be enough just to be competitive? Surely the answer is "no"?

Actually if I was in that position as I suspect would be the case, Ken would have to go.

[BWFC_Insane]

It is such a difficult decision now. I wouldn't blame Ken or whoever else might come in either way.

One on the one hand Parky has worked miracles and totally deserves to continue. And if there isn't substantial investment, it seems there are very few who could perform miracles on what will be a 23rd-24th place budget to keep us up again.

On the other if we secure investment and really want to progress and try and challenge at the top end of this league, as any substantial investor would surely demand, has Parky shown any signs that he is the man to do a Neil Warnock, or a David Wagner? Given our budget, even with investment given FFP, would only be enough just to be competitive? Surely the answer is "no"?

Actually if I was in that position as I suspect would be the case, Ken would have to go.

Depends, on whether they buy the whole thing or not. Many investors may prefer a shared risk at this stage. But also, a sensible investor may want to keep Ken around to run the show as Ken has clearly shown an ability to do that, if not as yet, raise the necessary funding to secure the future.

I can see KA acting as CEO under an owner as being highly likely. Especially a foreign owner.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

I can see KA acting as CEO under an owner as being highly likely. Especially a foreign owner.

Yeah, and he'd love that - gets the thrill (and fame) of involvement, but he's not spending his own money. Couldn't blame him.

[BWFC_Insane]

I can see KA acting as CEO under an owner as being highly likely. Especially a foreign owner.

Yeah, and he'd love that - gets the thrill (and fame) of involvement, but he's not spending his own money. Couldn't blame him.

Yep, and I think we'd all be happy with that. Someone who gets football and how it works running the show with some cash behind him would be the ultimate scenario for me. Some bloke who's never been here and doesn't intend to be here much making decisions without a football man in there scares me.

[Prufrock]

Yep. We need cash, but we also need nous.