Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

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Re: Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

Post by TANGODANCER » Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:05 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:
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TANGODANCER wrote:
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Re: Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

Post by Prufrock » Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:46 pm

Montreal Wanderer wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:15 am


A couple of days ago I tried to tell Insano that it could be revoked. Spotty told him the same things. I even quoted the Act. I guess that means the mandarins read TW.
Montreal Wanderer wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:12 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:19 pm

"Under international law, it is not possible to render a person stateless." That is the bit I'm referring to. We can do some short term things but cannot take away her British citizenship. At least that was what we said on the radio the other day.

In practical terms unless we assist her its highly unlikely she can get back anyway.
Lawyers will always argue opposite sides until the matter is settled by the Supreme Court. As I read the UK law citizenship can be withdrawn even if the individual is not currently a citizen of another state. All that is required is that the individual be eligible for citizenship in another state. As Spotty mentions she is probably eligible for Dutch citizenship by marriage and Bangladeshi by birth (jus sanguinis). The relevant section reads:
(b) the Secretary of State is satisfied that the deprivation is conducive to the public good because the person, while having that citizenship status, has conducted him or herself in a manner which is seriously prejudicial to the vital interests of the United Kingdom, any of the Islands, or any British overseas territory, and


(c) the Secretary of State has reasonable grounds for believing that the person is able, under the law of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom, to become a national of such a country or territory.
Note the "is able... to become" not "is". I'll leave it to the lawyers to argue the matter.
You've missed the fairly important (!) subparagraph a) above Monty which reads "if...the citizenship status results from the person's naturalisation... and...".

From what I've read it seems fairly certain she was British born and so the provisions you quote do not apply.

Instead we'll end up with a JR about whether the SoS is satisfied she will not be made stateless.

I don't think he'll be saved by the possibility she could get citizenship elsewhere. Both as a matter of language (does the order, which has immediate effect, make her stateless? Answer, if she does not have dual nationality at that time, yes) and of construction (if the possibility of other citizenship for non-naturalised UK nationals is enough to revoke, what is the point of S40(4A)?).

My prediction is she successfully JRs but the govt gets to say they tried (and no doubt dishonestly bash the Human Rights Act at the same time).
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Re: Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:53 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:34 am
Montreal Wanderer wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:15 am
jmjhb wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:34 am
Citizenship revoked. Interesting.

I think Javid made the right decision.
A couple of days ago I tried to tell Insano that it could be revoked. Spotty told him the same things. I even quoted the Act. I guess that means the mandarins read TW.
Montreal Wanderer wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:12 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:19 pm

"Under international law, it is not possible to render a person stateless." That is the bit I'm referring to. We can do some short term things but cannot take away her British citizenship. At least that was what we said on the radio the other day.

In practical terms unless we assist her its highly unlikely she can get back anyway.
Lawyers will always argue opposite sides until the matter is settled by the Supreme Court. As I read the UK law citizenship can be withdrawn even if the individual is not currently a citizen of another state. All that is required is that the individual be eligible for citizenship in another state. As Spotty mentions she is probably eligible for Dutch citizenship by marriage and Bangladeshi by birth (jus sanguinis). The relevant section reads:
(b) the Secretary of State is satisfied that the deprivation is conducive to the public good because the person, while having that citizenship status, has conducted him or herself in a manner which is seriously prejudicial to the vital interests of the United Kingdom, any of the Islands, or any British overseas territory, and


(c) the Secretary of State has reasonable grounds for believing that the person is able, under the law of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom, to become a national of such a country or territory.
Note the "is able... to become" not "is". I'll leave it to the lawyers to argue the matter.
There were members of the government saying she couldn't be made stateless. That is a fact - the information about her mother - which is what the decision is based on hadn't at that point come to light or wasn't in the public domain at least.

Either way if they can do it and any subsequent legal challenge fails - then good. But I still feel for the child who is being denied the chance of a normal life - not by this decision but by his mother.
The information about her mother WAS in the public domain.
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Re: Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:55 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:17 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:16 am
"a poster girl"
Poster girl? My word, that'll be a challenging wank! :)
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Re: Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:58 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:46 pm
Montreal Wanderer wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:15 am


A couple of days ago I tried to tell Insano that it could be revoked. Spotty told him the same things. I even quoted the Act. I guess that means the mandarins read TW.
Montreal Wanderer wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:12 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:19 pm

"Under international law, it is not possible to render a person stateless." That is the bit I'm referring to. We can do some short term things but cannot take away her British citizenship. At least that was what we said on the radio the other day.

In practical terms unless we assist her its highly unlikely she can get back anyway.
Lawyers will always argue opposite sides until the matter is settled by the Supreme Court. As I read the UK law citizenship can be withdrawn even if the individual is not currently a citizen of another state. All that is required is that the individual be eligible for citizenship in another state. As Spotty mentions she is probably eligible for Dutch citizenship by marriage and Bangladeshi by birth (jus sanguinis). The relevant section reads:
(b) the Secretary of State is satisfied that the deprivation is conducive to the public good because the person, while having that citizenship status, has conducted him or herself in a manner which is seriously prejudicial to the vital interests of the United Kingdom, any of the Islands, or any British overseas territory, and


(c) the Secretary of State has reasonable grounds for believing that the person is able, under the law of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom, to become a national of such a country or territory.
Note the "is able... to become" not "is". I'll leave it to the lawyers to argue the matter.
You've missed the fairly important (!) subparagraph a) above Monty which reads "if...the citizenship status results from the person's naturalisation... and...".

From what I've read it seems fairly certain she was British born and so the provisions you quote do not apply.

Instead we'll end up with a JR about whether the SoS is satisfied she will not be made stateless.

I don't think he'll be saved by the possibility she could get citizenship elsewhere. Both as a matter of language (does the order, which has immediate effect, make her stateless? Answer, if she does not have dual nationality at that time, yes) and of construction (if the possibility of other citizenship for non-naturalised UK nationals is enough to revoke, what is the point of S40(4A)?).

My prediction is she successfully JRs but the govt gets to say they tried (and no doubt dishonestly bash the Human Rights Act at the same time).
Of course she's not stateless. She's an eminent member of the Islamic State. She could probably be given diplomatic immunity as an ambassador for the cxnts.
The fact she's female and 19 should be empowering her to achieve this ambition (titter).
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Re: Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

Post by TANGODANCER » Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:34 pm

So, effectively, there is no authority in our government, even the supreme court, who can make a decision that is full and final, legal and binding on their say-so as a supreme authority without an "objection, your honour" ? If, as a counter argument, there is, then why is it not made as such and the matter ended? All this does is highlights what a crazy state of affairs exists in our so-called ruling bodies. Sedition was done away with in 1977? , but treason is still a crime in U.K. Where does that apply? " Young and impressionable" will doubtless be used as a counter argument, yet the girl (and her friends) were considered responsible enought to travel unaccompanied on British passports to a foreign state culminating in them becoming terrorists (why wrap the word up in cotton wool, that's what they were/are) and thus hostiles to U.K. Using a child and human rights is a total joke balanced against such. By that stat, every child of every terrorist that ever left the U.K. comes into the equation.

She, who chose to fight for the I.S, and an IS Dutch terrorist had the child in a Bangladesh camp. Complicating our own laws can't change that. Goodbye.
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Re: Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

Post by malcd1 » Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:35 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:46 pm
Montreal Wanderer wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:15 am


A couple of days ago I tried to tell Insano that it could be revoked. Spotty told him the same things. I even quoted the Act. I guess that means the mandarins read TW.
Montreal Wanderer wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:12 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:19 pm

"Under international law, it is not possible to render a person stateless." That is the bit I'm referring to. We can do some short term things but cannot take away her British citizenship. At least that was what we said on the radio the other day.

In practical terms unless we assist her its highly unlikely she can get back anyway.
Lawyers will always argue opposite sides until the matter is settled by the Supreme Court. As I read the UK law citizenship can be withdrawn even if the individual is not currently a citizen of another state. All that is required is that the individual be eligible for citizenship in another state. As Spotty mentions she is probably eligible for Dutch citizenship by marriage and Bangladeshi by birth (jus sanguinis). The relevant section reads:
(b) the Secretary of State is satisfied that the deprivation is conducive to the public good because the person, while having that citizenship status, has conducted him or herself in a manner which is seriously prejudicial to the vital interests of the United Kingdom, any of the Islands, or any British overseas territory, and


(c) the Secretary of State has reasonable grounds for believing that the person is able, under the law of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom, to become a national of such a country or territory.
Note the "is able... to become" not "is". I'll leave it to the lawyers to argue the matter.
You've missed the fairly important (!) subparagraph a) above Monty which reads "if...the citizenship status results from the person's naturalisation... and...".

From what I've read it seems fairly certain she was British born and so the provisions you quote do not apply.

Instead we'll end up with a JR about whether the SoS is satisfied she will not be made stateless.

I don't think he'll be saved by the possibility she could get citizenship elsewhere. Both as a matter of language (does the order, which has immediate effect, make her stateless? Answer, if she does not have dual nationality at that time, yes) and of construction (if the possibility of other citizenship for non-naturalised UK nationals is enough to revoke, what is the point of S40(4A)?).

My prediction is she successfully JRs but the govt gets to say they tried (and no doubt dishonestly bash the Human Rights Act at the same time).

That must be the first time I have agreed with the Insane One. I thought exactly the same. Expect this decision to be overturned and she will return to the UK.

My view is, they can hand her over to the Syrian or Iraqi government to punish her in any manner they see fit.
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Re: Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

Post by Prufrock » Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:44 pm

I'm not sure I could argue with being called AN Insane One, but not THE :D.

Fwiw govt have said she is a Bangladeshi citizen. Family say she isn't.

Imagine a lot may turn on what Bangladesh say.

I'm sticking with my prediction.
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Re: Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:44 pm

Trouble is, the law is an ass.
The parents of that wanker that led the Underground bombings. They were immigrants to this country who were naturalised citizens. They brought up their child (born abroad) to be an Islamic wanker. And their child killed people.
What did we do? We gave the parents a new identity. We bought out their fish and chip shop. We, at state expense, reinterred his blasted body from an anonymous concrete cased pit (in Pakistan) into a 'Muslim' friendly burial. And they still live here promulgating their poisonous ideology.
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Re: Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

Post by TANGODANCER » Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:33 pm

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Re: Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:33 pm

Sajid Javid now saying the baby can be a British citizen!
Fxcking ridiculous. It's less British than her parents are.
He was born in Syria.
To a Dutch father (who isn't really Dutch).
In the DAWLAT, state of Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (otherwise known as the Caliphate).
His mother is the daughter of Bangladeshis, born and bred.
His mother has had her 'British' citizenship stripped off her.

In what parallel universe is he British?
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Re: Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

Post by Prufrock » Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:54 pm

The one where his mother is a British citizen when he's born, rather than the one where immigration law requires no more than a photograph and a dulux chart.
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Re: Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

Post by jimbo » Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:00 pm

It’s an interesting case and I’m finding the moral, ethical and legal aspects to it fascinating. I’m not sure I’ve come to a definitive opinion on it yet.

Morally I don’t care at all for her. She left to go to join ISIS. I don’t give a shit what happens to her and hope she rots in some jail somewhere. That view is probably shared by the majority of the population but I’m not sure the government can treat her with such a cold hand.

I am uncomfortable with the UK revoking her citizenship from a distance. She was born and raised in the Uk, she was radicalised under our watch. It’s technically our problem to sort it out. I’m not sure us palming her off on Bangladesh really helps anybody and just shifts the problem to them. If she does go there, there’ll be less resources to track her, deradicalise her, and she’ll potentially be more risk.

She was also a child when she left. It seems fairly clear she knew what she was getting into, and she shows little remorse, but there’s an argument that I think needs to be heard with regards to whether she was groomed. I think that probably needs discussing in a court of law. Currently the government are jumping to the easiest solution of washing their hands of her and jumping to a guilty verdict and issuing a punishment based on the actions of a potentially vulnerable child. Again, it’s fine for people on the internet to do this and understandable, but I find it troubling if a government are doing it.

The child is the child of a British citizen. It has no agency, no say in where it is and is currently extremely vulnerable. In no way should the child come to avoidable harm so we should be trying to repatriate.

In short I might be fence sitting. I don’t want her back, but feel that everyone should at least have the right to put forward their case before any punishment is decided.

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Re: Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

Post by Hoboh » Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:39 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:46 pm
Montreal Wanderer wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:15 am


A couple of days ago I tried to tell Insano that it could be revoked. Spotty told him the same things. I even quoted the Act. I guess that means the mandarins read TW.
Montreal Wanderer wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:12 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:19 pm

"Under international law, it is not possible to render a person stateless." That is the bit I'm referring to. We can do some short term things but cannot take away her British citizenship. At least that was what we said on the radio the other day.

In practical terms unless we assist her its highly unlikely she can get back anyway.

Lawyers will always argue opposite sides until the matter is settled by the Supreme Court. As I read the UK law citizenship can be withdrawn even if the individual is not currently a citizen of another state. All that is required is that the individual be eligible for citizenship in another state. As Spotty mentions she is probably eligible for Dutch citizenship by marriage and Bangladeshi by birth (jus sanguinis). The relevant section reads:
(b) the Secretary of State is satisfied that the deprivation is conducive to the public good because the person, while having that citizenship status, has conducted him or herself in a manner which is seriously prejudicial to the vital interests of the United Kingdom, any of the Islands, or any British overseas territory, and


(c) the Secretary of State has reasonable grounds for believing that the person is able, under the law of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom, to become a national of such a country or territory.
Note the "is able... to become" not "is". I'll leave it to the lawyers to argue the matter.
You've missed the fairly important (!) subparagraph a) above Monty which reads "if...the citizenship status results from the person's naturalisation... and...".

From what I've read it seems fairly certain she was British born and so the provisions you quote do not apply.

Instead we'll end up with a JR about whether the SoS is satisfied she will not be made stateless.

I don't think he'll be saved by the possibility she could get citizenship elsewhere. Both as a matter of language (does the order, which has immediate effect, make her stateless? Answer, if she does not have dual nationality at that time, yes) and of construction (if the possibility of other citizenship for non-naturalised UK nationals is enough to revoke, what is the point of S40(4A)?).

My prediction is she successfully JRs but the govt gets to say they tried (and no doubt dishonestly bash the Human Rights Act at the same time).
What is dishonest in bashing something that allows dangerous terrorist supporting people back?

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Re: Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:42 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:54 pm
The one where his mother is a British citizen when he's born, rather than the one where immigration law requires no more than a photograph and a dulux chart.
Oh FFS!
If, say, the grandparents were Irish, and the father was Polish and the child was born in Germany... What has that got to do with Dulux charts?
This issue isn't about her colour. Nor his tint, tinge, hue, shade, race, ethnicity, or species.... The fxcking issue is about the mother's beliefs.
The child was born abroad to a foreigner (Dutch) in a foreign land (Syria) by a child of foreigners (Bangladeshis) with foreign beliefs (radical Sunni Islam). IT IS NOT FXCKING BRITISH.
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Re: Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

Post by boltonboris » Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:49 pm

Bangladesh have told her to sling Abu Hamzer's hook. Which puts it all in a difficult position, other than the obvious first past the post race, which we won! Yipee!

The usual Guardian lot are saying Bangladesh are entitled, but we're not, which I don't understand - The best thing that can happen, is that somebody looks after her kid, keeps it away from its' extremist Grandad (whom I've absolutely no doubt, was the motivating factor behind her decision to go over in the first place) and puts a bullet through her skull somewhere between where she is and the Turkish border.

She looks to me like she's not all there mentally (well, it's obvious really) and that makes her even more dangerous. But by that, I mean if she has genuinely escaped ISIS, they won't let her get away with it. If she's does get away with it, it''s because it was planned
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Re: Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:43 pm

boltonboris wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:49 pm

She looks to me like she's not all there mentally.
This is the real problem. Nobody, from Muhammed the founder, through to Muhammed bin Salman, Abu bakr al -Baghdadi, or your friendly Danish convert, is mentally stable.
How the fxck can you believe that the founder of the universe speaks Arabic?
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Re: Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

Post by TANGODANCER » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:58 pm

Questions:

An obvious (but possibly ignored by many) fact in all this, is whichever way the cat jumps, ( and it looks possible she may wangle her way back here) appeals, lawcourt meetings, security, vast numbers of legal eagles and media hoo-ha is going to cost the British taxpayer a tidy few shekels, is it not? At a worst case scenario she'll play the injured soldier and that, for somebody who left the country to join a militant terrorist group who not long back killed innocents in our own backyard, is beyond ridiculous. Putting her inside for twenty years would comfortably buy Bolton Wanderers.

Another idle question that occurs also,is who paid the flight costs to Bangladesh for three juveniles in the first place? Whover did, did they think they were just going sunbathing? It all gets more stupid by the minute.
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Re: Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

Post by TANGODANCER » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:14 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:43 pm
boltonboris wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:49 pm

She looks to me like she's not all there mentally.
This is the real problem. Nobody, from Muhammed the founder, through to Muhammed bin Salman, Abu bakr al -Baghdadi, or your friendly Danish convert, is mentally stable.
How the fxck can you believe that the founder of the universe speaks Arabic?
A historical note: The Islamic states occupied Spain for almost 800 years..7011 till 1492. Most of that time they spent fighting different factions of themselves whilst Baghdad gave the orders. Almohads, Almoravids and Marinids all suffered internally from power struggles amongst the Caliphates and each other. One of the greatest rifts in the end was caused by Harems and the amount of wives with sons all claiming they were the legal heirs. There are many incidences of families and relatives killing each other The Caliphates eventually splintered apart.

More recently, a local Asian taxidriver commented to my wife whilst discussing this and that, "Wait till Sharia Law comes. That will sort it out".... :|
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Re: Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:15 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:58 pm
Questions:

An obvious (but possibly ignored by many) fact in all this, is whichever way the cat jumps, ( and it looks possible she may wangle her way back here) appeals, lawcourt meetings, security, vast numbers of legal eagles and media hoo-ha is going to cost the British taxpayer a tidy few shekels, is it not? At a worst case scenario she'll play the injured soldier and that, for somebody who left the country to join a militant terrorist group who not long back killed innocents in our own backyard, is beyond ridiculous. Putting her inside for twenty years would comfortably buy Bolton Wanderers.

Another idle question that occurs also,is who paid the flight costs to Bangladesh for three juveniles in the first place? Whover did, did they think they were just going sunbathing? It all gets more stupid by the minute.
I can answer the last: she 'apparently' literally nicked the family silver (although in this case, gold) [the cheeky cxnts probably got compo on their insurance for it, no doubt]. She also half-inched her sister's passport. And left on a flight to Syria, via Turkey, without a single member of her family asking why Shameema wasn't sitting down for 'tea' (or dinner, or whatever the fxcking interfaith Muslim expression is).

What I want to know is who's paying for her 'family solicitor'?
Does your family have a solicitor?? Mine doesn't. The only fxckers I know who have family solicitors are those Frenchmen who've been here since 1066 and the likes of the fxcking Krays.
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