Skidding up to 18th, or will our Championship drift north, end? BWFC v Preston 3/3/18 3pm

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Re: Skidding up to 18th, or will our Championship drift north, end? BWFC v Preston 3/3/18 3pm

Post by irie Cee Bee » Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:43 pm

irie Cee Bee wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:42 pm
Never was happy when I saw the line up. 4-2-3-1 or 5-4-1 gives us the best hope to survive. 3-5-2 leaves us too open and Preston exploited that to maximum effect by playing the flanks behind the wingbacks. We do not have ball playing midfielders so we lump it forward. We needed Wilbraham out there from the beginning since we play that way. At least he is a big presence to keep the Centre Backs occupied. Ameobe, Walker, Alf, Clough are useless when we play like that. We have been fortunate recently with 3-5-2 with Alnwick being the hero, but not even he could save us today. Not sure what Vela brings but Phil clearly likes him. As far as I am concerned he is not the same player he was before his serious injury.

Phil based on comments doesnt seem to think that much of our newly signed forward, but I do hope he can play the Madine role better than the other forwards we have.

I hope on Tuesday we play 4 at the back with Flannagan and Taylor at full back. Henry partners Kirchhoff in front of them with Clough, Ameobi and Pratley linking with Wilbraham or Obasi up front.

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Re: Skidding up to 18th, or will our Championship drift north, end? BWFC v Preston 3/3/18 3pm

Post by TANGODANCER » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:03 pm

Listening for the replies, but we're leading, then level and, with four very large players in defence, Wheater, Beevers, Dervite and then Kirchoff? we get two scored against? I expected to see Little (hopefully) at right back or at least Flannagan, and was surprised to see Alf at the start. Our goal came from a set piece and not open play, and we never sounded at the races in terms of attack ? (that's a question), and once again sheep in the pen was the order of the day. I think every manager in the Championship knows that pressing and pushing us back works. Dominant we aren't. Somebody tell me what the answer is? We can't keep harping on injuries, lack of funds etc (true as both may be) to know if we're good enough to be in this league, and even so, what's the future for the club? (I don't really expect any magical answers, but gee, ain't it frustrating..
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Re: Skidding up to 18th, or will our Championship drift north, end? BWFC v Preston 3/3/18 3pm

Post by Abdoulaye's Twin » Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:55 am

irie Cee Bee wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:42 pm
Never was happy when I saw the line up. 4-2-3-1 or 5-4-1 gives us the best hope to survive. 3-5-2 leaves us too open and Preston exploited that to maximum effect by playing the flanks behind the wingbacks. We do not have ball playing midfielders so we lump it forward. We needed Wilbraham out there from the beginning since we play that way. At least he is a big presence to keep the Centre Backs occupied. Ameobe, Walker, Alf, Clough are useless when we play like that. We have been fortunate recently with 3-5-2 with Alnwick being the hero, but not even he could save us today. Not sure what Vela brings but Phil clearly likes him. As far as I am concerned he is not the same player he was before his serious injury.

Phil based on comments doesnt seem to think that much of our newly signed forward, but I do hope he can play the Madine role better than the other forwards we have.

I hope on Tuesday we play 4 at the back with Flannagan and Taylor at full back. Henry partners Kirchhoff in front of them with Clough, Ameobi and Karacan linking with Wilbraham or Obasi up front.
It only takes one centre back to push Wilbraham around in his wheelchair. You might as well play me.

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Re: Skidding up to 18th, or will our Championship drift north, end? BWFC v Preston 3/3/18 3pm

Post by twilight » Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:11 am

Are you any good AT? :)
Seriously, although it sounds as though I am calling a player who probably hasnt got much confidence, but Wilbraham should consider retiring, and consider it before he starts the next match.
Tango, I think Little was suspended and Alf didnt play at the start, it was Walker, who is not good enough for the 1st team imo, and we might as well play one of our young ones, maybe Connor Hall?
I was just disappointed in Parky's tactics yesterday

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Re: Skidding up to 18th, or will our Championship drift north, end? BWFC v Preston 3/3/18 3pm

Post by Bruce Rioja » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:53 am

I only found out yesterday that Tyler Walker is Des's son. Must've inherited his mother's pace. :?
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Re: Skidding up to 18th, or will our Championship drift north, end? BWFC v Preston 3/3/18 3pm

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:12 pm

At some stage we have to stop playing like the away side when we are at home.

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Re: Skidding up to 18th, or will our Championship drift north, end? BWFC v Preston 3/3/18 3pm

Post by nicholaldo » Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:57 pm

A question for Peter Thompson: if we were to play the style of football that you're advocating, by what method would we get the football from Alnwick to Ameobi?

There's very little evidence, in my opinion, that our centre-backs and our central midfielders have the required technical ability to do it without hitting it long. And that's more a matter of technique than it is of tactics.

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Re: Skidding up to 18th, or will our Championship drift north, end? BWFC v Preston 3/3/18 3pm

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:56 pm

nicholaldo wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:57 pm
A question for Peter Thompson: by what method would we get the football from Alnwick to Ameobi?
I'm not Peter Thompson, so I can't answer for him, but as meself, I'd say that under Parkinson the only answer appears to be hoof the fecker.
On the other hand we could get a different manager who might just, difficult I know, but just possibly have a slightly different take on what 'football' means. Controversial.
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Re: Skidding up to 18th, or will our Championship drift north, end? BWFC v Preston 3/3/18 3pm

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:22 pm

nicholaldo wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:57 pm

There's very little evidence, in my opinion, that our centre-backs and our central midfielders have the required technical ability to do it without hitting it long. And that's more a matter of technique than it is of tactics.
I've just re-read what you posted there.
So, let me summarise what you are saying: We have a bunch of footballers who we pay to play football in a team who can't play football.
Somebody needs to address that... and fast.
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Re: Skidding up to 18th, or will our Championship drift north, end? BWFC v Preston 3/3/18 3pm

Post by nicholaldo » Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:34 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:56 pm
nicholaldo wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:57 pm
A question for Peter Thompson: by what method would we get the football from Alnwick to Ameobi?
I'm not Peter Thompson, so I can't answer for him, but as meself, I'd say that under Parkinson the only answer appears to be hoof the fecker.
On the other hand we could get a different manager who might just, difficult I know, but just possibly have a slightly different take on what 'football' means. Controversial.

Any new manager would be just as hamstrung by our very 'non-footballing' central and rear spine. Dervite, Wheater, Beevers, Pratley and Henry won't all of a sudden become disciples of tiki-taka once Parky leaves the building. The question of how they can get it into the feet of our forward players in a position that can be described as remotely threatening remains unanswered. Now that he's here perhaps the answer to that question is Kirchhoff, but the point remains that you can only play any style of football if the players at your disposal allow you to play it.

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Re: Skidding up to 18th, or will our Championship drift north, end? BWFC v Preston 3/3/18 3pm

Post by nicholaldo » Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:38 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:22 pm
nicholaldo wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:57 pm

There's very little evidence, in my opinion, that our centre-backs and our central midfielders have the required technical ability to do it without hitting it long. And that's more a matter of technique than it is of tactics.
I've just re-read what you posted there.
So, let me summarise what you are saying: We have a bunch of footballers who we pay to play football in a team who can't play football.
Somebody needs to address that... and fast.
(*hand to ear* - hello, Ken? Can you hear us?)

Not that I thought that this would actually need pointing out, but no, of course I'm not. What I am saying, though, is that we have a squad of players whose attributes aren't very suited to a particular style of football.

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Re: Skidding up to 18th, or will our Championship drift north, end? BWFC v Preston 3/3/18 3pm

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:57 pm

The answer for how you get the ball from back to front without hoofing it is "midfield"...

We've not got the most talented players in the midfield, but Karachan and Vela can pass a ball and the wingbacks can carry. The idea that it's impossible for the 11 we put out against Preston to do anything other than hoof the ball is ridiculous. That Preston team is nothing special and we handed them total control of the game.

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Re: Skidding up to 18th, or will our Championship drift north, end? BWFC v Preston 3/3/18 3pm

Post by nicholaldo » Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:48 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:57 pm
The answer for how you get the ball from back to front without hoofing it is "midfield"...

We've not got the most talented players in the midfield, but Karachan and Vela can pass a ball and the wingbacks can carry. The idea that it's impossible for the 11 we put out against Preston to do anything other than hoof the ball is ridiculous. That Preston team is nothing special and we handed them total control of the game.

That then means that we play 3-5-2, which hasn't ever really worked for us because the opposition just exploit the space behind our wing-backs. It also means that Morais ends up deeper in our own half, rather than deeper in the opposition's half where he can cause more damage. We could get results playing that way, but I remain unconvinced that we would earn more points than we would playing the more solid 4-2-3-1.

My argument isn't that we don't have the players in more advanced positions to play it on the deck but that if we'd a) abandoned the system that's dragged our form from relegation certainties to mid-table mediocrity or b) started trying to play it out from the back with our cumbersome centre-backs/central midfield of Pratley and Henry we'd just have sabotaged ourselves. And as I posted further up, now that we have Kirchoff we might be able to be more expansive but before he signed it's just been a case of needs must. Credit to Parky for finding a way.

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Re: Skidding up to 18th, or will our Championship drift north, end? BWFC v Preston 3/3/18 3pm

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:11 pm

The ultra-negative style makes sense away from home. At home, against a totally average side, it's tying one hand behind your back. We've only managed to win 3 of our last 7 home games. In those 7 games we've scored 6 goals. Our home form is all we have to keep us up. It's not currently good enough.

We've become more negative since January than we were before. October to January we won 4 of 7 at home, but we scored 12 goals in that time. We conceded 6 in that period, we've conceded 6 in the 7 games where we scored 6 goals too - so whilst we are scoring half the goals we are conceding the same number.

Parky might have found a way to get us out of the bottom three, but he now needs to find a way to keep us out of it. We have got to offer more of a threat at the Macron. Any away point is a huge bonus, but we have to be able to win the majority of games at home.

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Re: Skidding up to 18th, or will our Championship drift north, end? BWFC v Preston 3/3/18 3pm

Post by Abdoulaye's Twin » Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:03 pm

twilight wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:11 am
Are you any good AT? :)
Seriously, although it sounds as though I am calling a player who probably hasnt got much confidence, but Wilbraham should consider retiring, and consider it before he starts the next match.
Tango, I think Little was suspended and Alf didnt play at the start, it was Walker, who is not good enough for the 1st team imo, and we might as well play one of our young ones, maybe Connor Hall?
I was just disappointed in Parky's tactics yesterday
I would have been described as average 30 years ago. Now the best I can offer is to be more of a nuisance than Wilbraham, which let's face it isn't difficult! I'm 2 footed which is a good start right? :D

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Re: Skidding up to 18th, or will our Championship drift north, end? BWFC v Preston 3/3/18 3pm

Post by nicholaldo » Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:09 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:11 pm
The ultra-negative style makes sense away from home. At home, against a totally average side, it's tying one hand behind your back. We've only managed to win 3 of our last 7 home games. In those 7 games we've scored 6 goals. Our home form is all we have to keep us up. It's not currently good enough.

We've become more negative since January than we were before. October to January we won 4 of 7 at home, but we scored 12 goals in that time. We conceded 6 in that period, we've conceded 6 in the 7 games where we scored 6 goals too - so whilst we are scoring half the goals we are conceding the same number.

Parky might have found a way to get us out of the bottom three, but he now needs to find a way to keep us out of it. We have got to offer more of a threat at the Macron. Any away point is a huge bonus, but we have to be able to win the majority of games at home.

They aren't totally average though, are they? They're three points off the play-offs, and much better than we are.

We can make some subtle changes to improve things (personally, if I were in charge I might explore encouraging the opposition onto us and then hitting them on the counter more regularly now that we've lost our focal point up front in he who cannot be named, and I'd probably also push Pratley further forward into Vela's position) but ultimately we can't yet revolutionise the way that we play. We're doing what we can to bridge a significant financial gap, largely with a squad of players that no-one else wanted, and maybe as supporters we just have to suck it up for now?

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Re: Skidding up to 18th, or will our Championship drift north, end? BWFC v Preston 3/3/18 3pm

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:56 pm

They are totally average, yes. They are 5 points above mid-table and we just handed them 3 of the 5, because we played like we afraid of the ball.

I don't have an issue with Parkinson (he did well to get us up and will do very well if he can keep us up), but he is currently far too conservative at home and it cost us yesterday. We surrendered the midfield to Preston and let a very average side pass at will.

I don't expect us to radically change the style of play, but the manager has to get the midfield involved because we no longer have a reliable out-ball if we go direct. I don't really see it as a choice to stay this timid, at this stage. It'll cost us points at home and we can't afford that. The alternative is to hand every visiting side 2/3 of possession and hope we can get enough blocks and tackles in to scrape by.

Maybe Kerchoff will get Parky to put more faith in actually passing the football, or maybe Obasi still has the pace he showed in Germany and we'll have a more direct out-ball like we used to have when Diouf would run onto balls cleared to the flanks. I have no idea what impact the signings will have, at this stage; but if we put them aside for now we are no longer a team that can go long. We just don't have the players up top to do it.

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Re: Skidding up to 18th, or will our Championship drift north, end? BWFC v Preston 3/3/18 3pm

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:54 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:56 pm
They are totally average, yes. They are 5 points above mid-table and we just handed them 3 of the 5, because we played like we afraid of the ball.

I don't have an issue with Parkinson (he did well to get us up and will do very well if he can keep us up), but he is currently far too conservative at home and it cost us yesterday. We surrendered the midfield to Preston and let a very average side pass at will.

I don't expect us to radically change the style of play, but the manager has to get the midfield involved because we no longer have a reliable out-ball if we go direct. I don't really see it as a choice to stay this timid, at this stage. It'll cost us points at home and we can't afford that. The alternative is to hand every visiting side 2/3 of possession and hope we can get enough blocks and tackles in to scrape by.

Maybe Kerchoff will get Parky to put more faith in actually passing the football, or maybe Obasi still has the pace he showed in Germany and we'll have a more direct out-ball like we used to have when Diouf would run onto balls cleared to the flanks. I have no idea what impact the signings will have, at this stage; but if we put them aside for now we are no longer a team that can go long. We just don't have the players up top to do it.
We lost on Saturday because we tried to take the game to Preston. I'm really not sure what game you were watching.

The back three played an inexplicably high line, our midfield pushed on and Preston exploited that time and time again. Then when we tried to switch to a deeper back 4 we only had a centre half to play right back.

It amazes me why we went at Preston. Their game was built around pace on the break. The first goal a classic example of how not to defend against them. We should have been 15 yards deeper instead Wheater is beaten high up the pitch and from there, we're absolutely dead in the water. Happened two or three times first half but Preston messed it up.

At 1-0 up at home against a good Preston side we should have been making it as hard as possible to break us down. Instead Karacan, Pratley, Vela pushed on, chasing stuff everywhere, and the back 3 got dragged up the pitch. It was suicidal stuff.

We didn't play very well, at all. Ameobi had an off day, and we had no outlet. This is a BIG problem. How can we get out when Walker is ineffective, Ameobi is off form, there is literally nobody who offers an outlet.

But we lost that game being ridiculously kamikaze. If we'd been negative and dour I'd have fancied a very decent point.

And the reason we're not scoring goals is because our top scorer and focal point was sold and we have literally nobody else doing even half the job he did. We have done well with fine margins in games, but it was always going to catch up with us eventually.

If Obasi can do a job we might even get away with this, thanks to our very, very good manager. But if he can't then nobody is keeping a group up where the top scorer has 4 goals. Its simply too big an ask.

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Re: Skidding up to 18th, or will our Championship drift north, end? BWFC v Preston 3/3/18 3pm

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:00 am

Peter Thompson wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:57 pm
1st home game for me since Sept - hence me not commenting on games for the last 4-5 months....and I won't post again until the end of the season. But feck me that was dire.....It'll also be the last for me until Parkinson gets sacked - we should be done under trades description for saying that's football - how come almost every other team can knock the ball about & play football, and despite us not having Madine we still play constant boring, predictable hoof ball - bringing Wilbraham on at the end just so sums Parkinson up - he's a long ball manager who can't play any sort of passing football - Preston played us off the park 2nd half because we couldn't pass the ball 10 yards without launching it, no cohesion / no movement / no football.....but more importantly no pace, going forward or defending we are just so fecking slow.

Like HG says - Kirchhoff looks a footballer, he's composed and can pass but give him 2 weeks and Parkinson will drop him if he refuses to launch it at every opportunity. I really hope that we stay up somehow, but if we do somehow manage it Parkinson has to go otherwise its same again next season & the season after that - Parkinson hasn't got a clue how to play football apart from long ball shite - we played no different today than we did with Madine, awful tactics & management from the boring as feck Parkinson.

Vela & Ameobi were awful (2 out of 10 at best). We must have the best training pitch in all 4 leagues, and the groundsman must win award after award because the way we train during the week the ball must never touch the pitch / floor in training - the ball is like a hot potato.

Parkinson is such a limited tactically poor manager / coach - KA could give him Neymar, Messi, Salah & Sane and he'd still play hoof ball football....because he simply can't coach or play football that involves passing the ball on the floor.
Its hilarious how you don't comment on a very good home run but are in as soon as we lose a game.

Parkinson has more points from these players than any other manager in this division would. Where we are is a miracle when our strikers are non-existent and we're playing freebies and cast-offs in midfield. We're well, well short of quality for this level. Worse than last time when we finished bottom with 30 points. This time we're at least giving it a proper go, with an even more limited squad than before. And we're already 4 points better off. The only reason for that is having a proper manager who knows how to grind results out when you've got jack shit the opposition really need worry about.

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Re: Skidding up to 18th, or will our Championship drift north, end? BWFC v Preston 3/3/18 3pm

Post by GhostoftheBok » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:05 pm

Yeah, I read the game very differently. I didn't think we were trying to take the game to Preston in any organised, attacking sense. We tried to condense the midfield to make it harder for them to pass the ball and easier for our mids to win it; but once we had possession (not often) we had no real clue what to do with it, panicked and gave it away. That's being combative (ineffectively), not taking the game to them.

Parky has got the team shape right and the lads drop into the right positions defensively, but without a big man to hit upfront we haven't seen much of him being able to get the lads organised going forward. I'm told Reading was a lot better (I didn't go, so I can't speak to it) and it will take time to change how we play.

I'm taking my little boy to either Leeds or Wednesday for his first ever match, so hopefully we show a bit more of what we apparently showed at Reading and less what we showed against Preston.

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