I Wandered lonely as a cloud ..Whites v Wolves Sat 21st Apr. 3-0

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Re: I Wandered lonely as a cloud ..Whites v Wolves Sat 21st Apr. 3-0

Post by TANGODANCER » Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:49 pm

Well, one thing is for sure; blaming Parky for our current predicament is just a bit ridiculous is it not? Any damage to the club and team was done well before he got here and "mission impossible" doesn't go near describing saving a team expected to play in the Championship of English football on peanuts, loans, free transfers and cheap sponsor deals. All we (as a club) can really hope for now is a large transfusion of lifeblood, ie money, from somewhere. If that doesn't happen, then lets not be hypoctritical and express surprise and start howling for heads and wheeling the tumbril out. It was deed done long ago.

If the government via the Inland Revenue are ever-ready Eddies' at taking taxes from clubs and players and threatening them with administration and court actions for non-payment, should it not be mandatory that town councils should donate a set sum each year into clubs representing their home town? Nah, daft idea, the government want cuts and inputs not handouts.

Just as an example of where money-ball stands right now, Arsene Wenger won seven F.A. Cup finals and three League Championships with Arsenal. Yesterday his American bosses sacked him. What price success? Without a massive windfall, where are we headed next season? "Quo Vadis" has never been more relevant a question, but blaming Phil Parkinson is a bit like blaming rain for making grass grow.
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Re: I Wandered lonely as a cloud ..Whites v Wolves Sat 21st Apr. 3-0

Post by Harry Genshaw » Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:01 pm

I like Parky but he can't be absolved of all responsibility TD.

He and Ken worked miracles last year. Two games to go and we're out of the bottom three which is good enough for me. For now. Parkys operating on a shoestring but some of his signings have been questionable and it's meant when things have needed mixing up we haven't had the necessary personnel
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Re: I Wandered lonely as a cloud ..Whites v Wolves Sat 21st Apr. 3-0

Post by Athertonian » Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:48 pm

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:01 pm
I like Parky but he can't be absolved of all responsibility TD.

He and Ken worked miracles last year. Two games to go and we're out of the bottom three which is good enough for me. For now. Parkys operating on a shoestring but some of his signings have been questionable and it's meant when things have needed mixing up we haven't had the necessary personnel
He couldn't get Bradford promoted. Bollox, he got lucky last term and most Bolton fans will admit.
Get relegated and Parky should be shown the door, money or no money to spend. Seems he had the same pre match predictions as most Wanderers fans had and thet we were goiung to get hammered.
This shower of spineless wankers should be ashamed to put a Wanderers shirt on again. We are going down because we are fecking shite, Today was a waste of fecking time,if the team can't turn up, don't expect the fans to do so. Diabolical shower of shit.

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Re: I Wandered lonely as a cloud ..Whites v Wolves Sat 21st Apr. 3-0

Post by twilight » Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:01 pm

It was crap...end of :(

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Re: I Wandered lonely as a cloud ..Whites v Wolves Sat 21st Apr. 3-0

Post by CrazyHorse » Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:06 pm

Well I still think we're staying up.
At the start of the season we all said we'd take 21st and here we are. It'll be reet.
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Re: I Wandered lonely as a cloud ..Whites v Wolves Sat 21st Apr. 3-0

Post by Athertonian » Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:52 pm

Whilst I do love an optimist we have to face up to reality and admit this squad isn't good enough to remain in this league. Sad to say those pie eaters are a far better team than we currently are.

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Re: I Wandered lonely as a cloud ..Whites v Wolves Sat 21st Apr. 3-0

Post by Harry Genshaw » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:46 am

Athertonian wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:48 pm
Harry Genshaw wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:01 pm
I like Parky but he can't be absolved of all responsibility TD.

He and Ken worked miracles last year. Two games to go and we're out of the bottom three which is good enough for me. For now. Parkys operating on a shoestring but some of his signings have been questionable and it's meant when things have needed mixing up we haven't had the necessary personnel
He couldn't get Bradford promoted. Bollox, he got lucky last term and most Bolton fans will admit.
I understand your ire and even share some of it, but I'm not having that. You don't get lucky over a season. Whatever his faults Parky did a remarkable job last season
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Re: I Wandered lonely as a cloud ..Whites v Wolves Sat 21st Apr. 3-0

Post by Mar » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:44 am

Just watched the highlights (as if yesterdays viewing wasn't bad enough).

Benik Afobe's dive to win the penalty is appalling. I'm sure the referees association won't do anything about it as there's a swing of a leg towards him. Dirty little cheat.

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Re: I Wandered lonely as a cloud ..Whites v Wolves Sat 21st Apr. 3-0

Post by Harry Genshaw » Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:41 am

Mar wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:44 am
Just watched the highlights (as if yesterdays viewing wasn't bad enough).

Benik Afobe's dive to win the penalty is appalling. I'm sure the referees association won't do anything about it as there's a swing of a leg towards him. Dirty little cheat.
Blatant wasn't it? As clear a dive as you could wish to see and right in front of the referee too. When he was on loan here was there a realistic chance of us signing him? I like to think Coyle passed up the opportunity in order to give Keith Andrews a 3 year deal but that probably isn't true!
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Re: I Wandered lonely as a cloud ..Whites v Wolves Sat 21st Apr. 3-0

Post by Peter Thompson » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:13 pm

Athertonian wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:48 pm
He couldn't get Bradford promoted. Bollox, he got lucky last term and most Bolton fans will admit.
Get relegated and Parky should be shown the door, money or no money to spend. Seems he had the same pre match predictions as most Wanderers fans had and thet we were goiung to get hammered.
This shower of spineless wankers should be ashamed to put a Wanderers shirt on again. We are going down because we are fecking shite, Today was a waste of fecking time,if the team can't turn up, don't expect the fans to do so. Diabolical shower of shit.
This....

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Re: I Wandered lonely as a cloud ..Whites v Wolves Sat 21st Apr. 3-0

Post by DJBlu » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:41 pm

Just watched the highlights as motivation for cleaning this house. Should be done cleaning in 5 minutes.

I think we'll be seeing another team rotation next week. Won't guess what the team will be as PP doesn't know.

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Re: I Wandered lonely as a cloud ..Whites v Wolves Sat 21st Apr. 3-0

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:06 pm

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:41 am
When he [Afobe] was on loan here was there a realistic chance of us signing him? I like to think Coyle passed up the opportunity in order to give Keith Andrews a 3 year deal but that probably isn't true!
It's not, HG. We gave Andrews a 3yr contract on 29 June 2012; young Benik arrived five weeks later on a season's loan. At the time Arsenal were hoping he'd grow into a top-flight player, and he sort of has – but for us he didn't look anywhere near. Mind you, players change: Marcos Alonso won the Premier League.

I hardly even bothered following our game yesterday, because we were always going to lose. It's a pity it was such a heavy defeat, but the most worrying thing is Parky's quote that "I think we have been punished by the way we set up. We had some decent moments but Wolves are a team who’ll punish you. Look at the first half, there weren’t many moments where we lost concentration, but the two we did, we got done."

If that's him thinking we should play a flat back four with stay-at-home full-backs at Burton, well that's the lack of courage that could take us down. Wolves were always going to "punish". They're a better team than Burton – 60 points better. We need that Barnsley second-half attacking ability, and it won't come from Andy Taylor, bless him.

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Re: I Wandered lonely as a cloud ..Whites v Wolves Sat 21st Apr. 3-0

Post by truewhite15 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:00 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:06 pm
Harry Genshaw wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:41 am
When he [Afobe] was on loan here was there a realistic chance of us signing him? I like to think Coyle passed up the opportunity in order to give Keith Andrews a 3 year deal but that probably isn't true!
It's not, HG. We gave Andrews a 3yr contract on 29 June 2012; young Benik arrived five weeks later on a season's loan. At the time Arsenal were hoping he'd grow into a top-flight player, and he sort of has – but for us he didn't look anywhere near. Mind you, players change: Marcos Alonso won the Premier League.

I hardly even bothered following our game yesterday, because we were always going to lose. It's a pity it was such a heavy defeat, but the most worrying thing is Parky's quote that "I think we have been punished by the way we set up. We had some decent moments but Wolves are a team who’ll punish you. Look at the first half, there weren’t many moments where we lost concentration, but the two we did, we got done."

If that's him thinking we should play a flat back four with stay-at-home full-backs at Burton, well that's the lack of courage that could take us down. Wolves were always going to "punish". They're a better team than Burton – 60 points better. We need that Barnsley second-half attacking ability, and it won't come from Andy Taylor, bless him.
I wouldn't say we played with stay-at-home full backs yesterday. In fact, in the first half (when things were going reasonably well) we looked curiously fluid. Flanagan and Robinson had been tasked with man-marking their two wide men, following them pretty much everywhere, which meant that Morais and Buckley were more often than not to be found in the traditional full back role monitoring the Wolves wing backs.

There isn't a singular issue with our team. It's a multitude that might manifest singly or en masse. Our midfield is painfully under-par for the league. Henry, Pratley, Vela - these are not players you could trust to get the ball down and move forward. They are disruptors of play, primarily, which means they often go for the simplest ball, which is invariably backwards. Nor are they the most mobile or reactive, which is why the opposition centre backs so frequently look like Beckenbauer-lite as they waltz unhindered through acres of space in the middle.

This lack of talent means that we're resorting to going long, towards a 6 and half foot winger who can't jump or head a ball and a striker who can, but would struggle to reach the top shelf of his cupboards. This then results in the ball coming straight back towards a pair of defenders who are big and look powerful, but would be outrun by arthritic snails.

If we're somehow to stay up this season, a massive squad overhaul is needed. Some might argue that we need that even if we go down. Too many players are just plain sub-standard.

None of which absolves Parky, to be clear. He deserves plaudits for taking us up with a budget of zero last season. He deserves credit that we're not at the bottom and already two months relegated this year. But it's his job to get the players marshalled, drilled and motivated - and too often this season, particularly in the last month, we've looked lost, desperate and hopeless. As much as the manager takes praise for having us seemingly home and hosed before the international break, he needs to take the blame for throwing away our sizable advantage. The fact that he seemingly still doesn't know his best team is worrying, to say the least, and the constant changes are bound to hinder, rather than help, our diminishing chances.

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Re: I Wandered lonely as a cloud ..Whites v Wolves Sat 21st Apr. 3-0

Post by Peter Thompson » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:54 pm

truewhite15 wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:00 pm

If we're somehow to stay up this season, a massive squad overhaul is needed. Some might argue that we need that even if we go down. Too many players are just plain sub-standard.

None of which absolves Parky, to be clear. He deserves plaudits for taking us up with a budget of zero last season. He deserves credit that we're not at the bottom and already two months relegated this year. But it's his job to get the players marshalled, drilled and motivated - and too often this season, particularly in the last month, we've looked lost, desperate and hopeless. As much as the manager takes praise for having us seemingly home and hosed before the international break, he needs to take the blame for throwing away our sizable advantage. The fact that he seemingly still doesn't know his best team is worrying, to say the least, and the constant changes are bound to hinder, rather than help, our diminishing chances.
This 100%....very good post and very accurate

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Re: I Wandered lonely as a cloud ..Whites v Wolves Sat 21st Apr. 3-0

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:39 pm

DJBlu wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:41 pm
Just watched the highlights as motivation for cleaning this house. Should be done cleaning in 5 minutes.

I think we'll be seeing another team rotation next week. Won't guess what the team will be as PP doesn't know.
You see, this is the problem. I get that Parkinson had no input into the financial situation as it stands, and is constrained by the quality of team he can assemble... But, he has no fxcking idea about team selection, even when it's his own team he's selecting.
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Re: I Wandered lonely as a cloud ..Whites v Wolves Sat 21st Apr. 3-0

Post by Armchair Wanderer » Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:33 am

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:06 pm
At the time Mind you, players change: Marcos Alonso won the Premier League.
Think I read somewhere he's Chelsea's player of the year this season. Afobe didn't get much of a chance at Bolton.
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Re: I Wandered lonely as a cloud ..Whites v Wolves Sat 21st Apr. 3-0

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:46 am

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:01 pm
I like Parky but he can't be absolved of all responsibility TD.

He and Ken worked miracles last year. Two games to go and we're out of the bottom three which is good enough for me. For now. Parkys operating on a shoestring but some of his signings have been questionable and it's meant when things have needed mixing up we haven't had the necessary personnel
He's not exactly had a free arm in the market. Whoever is responsible for us going into the second half of the season without a proper centre forward, be that KA, PP or whoever, wants bloody shooting. Its so obvious that a team with as limited a midfield as ours, needs something up front as a target or with some real pace...to give an easy outlet.

I felt from the end of January we'd be in trouble, and so it's proving. There wasn't ever enough goals in the side, and to take the main source of goals away is catching up with us now.

Also I feel Henry is knackered and that is a big issue, we've lost energy at a crucial stage.

Having said that, what happened between Villa and Leeds is a mystery. We've gone from looking hard to beat to being the softest touch around. Even 2 extra points and we'd more than likely be comfortable.

As it is Sordell will score one off his arse on Saturday to send us down.

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Re: I Wandered lonely as a cloud ..Whites v Wolves Sat 21st Apr. 3-0

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:30 am

truewhite15 wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:00 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:06 pm
the most worrying thing is Parky's quote that "I think we have been punished by the way we set up. We had some decent moments but Wolves are a team who’ll punish you. Look at the first half, there weren’t many moments where we lost concentration, but the two we did, we got done."

If that's him thinking we should play a flat back four with stay-at-home full-backs at Burton, well that's the lack of courage that could take us down. Wolves were always going to "punish". They're a better team than Burton – 60 points better. We need that Barnsley second-half attacking ability, and it won't come from Andy Taylor, bless him.
I wouldn't say we played with stay-at-home full backs yesterday. In fact, in the first half (when things were going reasonably well) we looked curiously fluid. Flanagan and Robinson had been tasked with man-marking their two wide men, following them pretty much everywhere, which meant that Morais and Buckley were more often than not to be found in the traditional full back role monitoring the Wolves wing backs.
Cheers. I agree with much of your post. Just for the record, though, I wasn't saying we played with cautious full-backs against Wolves; I was saying, probably unclearly, something close to quite the opposite. I'll have another go and hopefully make more sense this time.

Seems to me that if we play a back three, we'll concede 2+ per game. If we play a 4-2-3-1 with a solid, unwavering back four including full-backs who stay at home and keep it tight, we might manage a clean sheet or just one concession, but we will rarely achieve the necessary penetration up the other end - because 40% of our outfielders are table-footballing on the halfway line, with two limited central midfielders sat in front of them, meaning that our attacking unit is constantly outnumbered.

Football is very commonly about overloads, and after the break at Barnsley it's the first time in ages I've seen us overload the opposition. This wasn't done through Cruyffian genius from players or manager, but simply by encouraging the full-backs forward to overlap (or cut inside) the wingers. Basically he untethered his full-backs to add to attacks, and we looked about fifteen times likelier to score than we had all season. (Barnsley were also poor, but so are Burton.)

What I'm saying is that the template set at Barnsley is the only way I can see us surviving, bar a pair of extremely fortunate against-the-odds wins dug out by set-pieces or flukes or something. So when we had to play Wolves, what worried me more than the almost inevitable defeat (and indeed goal difference punishment) was that any form of attacking full-back play would be punished then banished as Not Worth It, the baby thrown out with the bathwater because it didn't work against the division's best side, even though it had allowed us to dominate against relegation rivals – like the ones we're playing this weekend. Hence my worry over Parky's quotes.

Parky's reputation as a cautious manager isn't entirely undeserved. Although he is more willing to change than his louder critics assume, he will often revert to a safety-first approach. I hope to God that he doesn't do so this weekend. I'm already worried about the 2pm team alert saying he's chosen Taylor – no bad defender, but no threat whatsoever - over Robinson. We can win, and we arguably must win, and the best way to do that is by untethering his full-backs – whatever happened against Wolves.

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Re: I Wandered lonely as a cloud ..Whites v Wolves Sat 21st Apr. 3-0

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:42 am

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:30 am
truewhite15 wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:00 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:06 pm
the most worrying thing is Parky's quote that "I think we have been punished by the way we set up. We had some decent moments but Wolves are a team who’ll punish you. Look at the first half, there weren’t many moments where we lost concentration, but the two we did, we got done."

If that's him thinking we should play a flat back four with stay-at-home full-backs at Burton, well that's the lack of courage that could take us down. Wolves were always going to "punish". They're a better team than Burton – 60 points better. We need that Barnsley second-half attacking ability, and it won't come from Andy Taylor, bless him.
I wouldn't say we played with stay-at-home full backs yesterday. In fact, in the first half (when things were going reasonably well) we looked curiously fluid. Flanagan and Robinson had been tasked with man-marking their two wide men, following them pretty much everywhere, which meant that Morais and Buckley were more often than not to be found in the traditional full back role monitoring the Wolves wing backs.
Cheers. I agree with much of your post. Just for the record, though, I wasn't saying we played with cautious full-backs against Wolves; I was saying, probably unclearly, something close to quite the opposite. I'll have another go and hopefully make more sense this time.

Seems to me that if we play a back three, we'll concede 2+ per game. If we play a 4-2-3-1 with a solid, unwavering back four including full-backs who stay at home and keep it tight, we might manage a clean sheet or just one concession, but we will rarely achieve the necessary penetration up the other end - because 40% of our outfielders are table-footballing on the halfway line, with two limited central midfielders sat in front of them, meaning that our attacking unit is constantly outnumbered.

Football is very commonly about overloads, and after the break at Barnsley it's the first time in ages I've seen us overload the opposition. This wasn't done through Cruyffian genius from players or manager, but simply by encouraging the full-backs forward to overlap (or cut inside) the wingers. Basically he untethered his full-backs to add to attacks, and we looked about fifteen times likelier to score than we had all season. (Barnsley were also poor, but so are Burton.)

What I'm saying is that the template set at Barnsley is the only way I can see us surviving, bar a pair of extremely fortunate against-the-odds wins dug out by set-pieces or flukes or something. So when we had to play Wolves, what worried me more than the almost inevitable defeat (and indeed goal difference punishment) was that any form of attacking full-back play would be punished then banished as Not Worth It, the baby thrown out with the bathwater because it didn't work against the division's best side, even though it had allowed us to dominate against relegation rivals – like the ones we're playing this weekend. Hence my worry over Parky's quotes.

Parky's reputation as a cautious manager isn't entirely undeserved. Although he is more willing to change than his louder critics assume, he will often revert to a safety-first approach. I hope to God that he doesn't do so this weekend. I'm already worried about the 2pm team alert saying he's chosen Taylor – no bad defender, but no threat whatsoever - over Robinson. We can win, and we arguably must win, and the best way to do that is by untethering his full-backs – whatever happened against Wolves.
The argument against that is our only chance is probably a clean sheet. And picking the team most likely to deliver that is key. I'd play Robinson ahead of Taylor. We desperately need some pace going forwards.

Burton have nothing to lose and have form and momentum. There is absolutely no way I see us going there and scoring more than 1. So I think our only hope is 1-0. I firmly believe we HAVE to win at Burton as I think Forest will be a very tough game if we have to win it.

Burton will have to win so it gives us a chance if we can keep them at bay and hit them with a sucker punch. Going into a game against a team with nowt to play for and us being forced to push on and win it terrifies me with this team. We haven't got the wherewithal to do it.

Sadly I think Burton will put 3 or 4 past us and that will be that. Barnsley will get something at Forest and beat Brentford at home to survive. Burton lose at Preston to join us.

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Re: I Wandered lonely as a cloud ..Whites v Wolves Sat 21st Apr. 3-0

Post by Peter Thompson » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:51 am

Parkinson's mind set is always to defend first - set the team up for a 0-0 (home & away)....then when we go behind & he's chasing the game he then goes more attacking, when in the norm its too late.

His tactics, mind set, approach, team set up is to try & nullify the opposition, instead of setting up to take it to the opposition - try & get on the front foot, give them something to worry about, which is what Noone & Clough would have brought to the table would Parkinson have been brave enough to give them game time instead of 10-15 mins every now & then when we are chasing the game.

We do not have a chance against Burton, because they will fight & scrap for every ball for 90+ mins - unfortunately our players won't and Parkinson will as usual set them up to try & stop Burton scoring....I honestly don't think that I've ever come across such a negative cautious manager as Parkinson....and for those who defend Parkinson he only goes attacking when its too late & we are chasing the game.

He simply has to start at Burton how we set up / played 2nd half at Barnsley and just go for it....unfortunately I agree with BWFCI for once and can see us getting spanked 3-0

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