We are (hopefully) staying up: the opposition

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Re: We are (hopefully) staying up: the opposition

Post by Prufrock » Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:33 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:28 pm
The team we have at the minute is thrown together from whoever is available on a free and willing to take not much money, plus a load of dross nobody will take off out books. I feel for Parky, in that it's hard to see a way for this collection of players to play successfully.

We can't push-up, because our defenders are too slow to hold a higher line. So we have to sit deeper and find a way of going back to front. The way we did that was to hit Madine, but he's now gone and we've no other useable target man available. The other option is to counter attack with pace, but we've no pace. Lastly we could play retention football and try to pick teams apart, but we've no decent passing/creative players. So you've got the Allardyce model, the Leicester model and the Juve model that we could emulate with the options we have at the back - none of which we can play.

The players themselves, whilst not great, aren't individually awful; but we've got an utterly garbage team. Our players might be useful members of other squads at this level, but as a group they don't offer many tools for the manager to work with. I do think we could do better than we have if Parky worked on organising our attacking play, but it'd still be an uphill battle.

IF we stay up, it's hard to see how we can do enough work in one summer to change our fortunes drastically. We might get a couple of players in who totally change the way we play, but then we'll always be one or two injuries away from this dross.

So I do understand the complaints, I just don't see how we can judge Parky given what he has to work with.
I don't hugely disagree. I don't think Parky is perfect but I think broadly speaking he's done a very good job indeed. I don't think there's much more you can get out of this lot going forward without being catastrophic at the back and so I don't really mind that the football isn't great. He's had no money, an embargo, had to sell all his best players and replace them with freebies. It's all context. I think in a couple of years if we're still in the league we might expect us to be able to be more of a threat, but it takes time and you have to cut your cloth.

Also, whilst I want to watch entertaining football, the manager clearly has different priorities.
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Re: We are (hopefully) staying up: the opposition

Post by GhostoftheBok » Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:34 am

Prufrock wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:33 pm
GhostoftheBok wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:28 pm
The team we have at the minute is thrown together from whoever is available on a free and willing to take not much money, plus a load of dross nobody will take off out books. I feel for Parky, in that it's hard to see a way for this collection of players to play successfully.

We can't push-up, because our defenders are too slow to hold a higher line. So we have to sit deeper and find a way of going back to front. The way we did that was to hit Madine, but he's now gone and we've no other useable target man available. The other option is to counter attack with pace, but we've no pace. Lastly we could play retention football and try to pick teams apart, but we've no decent passing/creative players. So you've got the Allardyce model, the Leicester model and the Juve model that we could emulate with the options we have at the back - none of which we can play.

The players themselves, whilst not great, aren't individually awful; but we've got an utterly garbage team. Our players might be useful members of other squads at this level, but as a group they don't offer many tools for the manager to work with. I do think we could do better than we have if Parky worked on organising our attacking play, but it'd still be an uphill battle.

IF we stay up, it's hard to see how we can do enough work in one summer to change our fortunes drastically. We might get a couple of players in who totally change the way we play, but then we'll always be one or two injuries away from this dross.

So I do understand the complaints, I just don't see how we can judge Parky given what he has to work with.
I don't hugely disagree. I don't think Parky is perfect but I think broadly speaking he's done a very good job indeed. I don't think there's much more you can get out of this lot going forward without being catastrophic at the back and so I don't really mind that the football isn't great. He's had no money, an embargo, had to sell all his best players and replace them with freebies. It's all context. I think in a couple of years if we're still in the league we might expect us to be able to be more of a threat, but it takes time and you have to cut your cloth.

Also, whilst I want to watch entertaining football, the manager clearly has different priorities.
I hope he starts to play more adventurous stuff if we get a bit more stable over time, but I agree with you. This is a job for Parky and if he wants to keep it he needs points on the board, not necessarily flashy football on the pitch. There's a reason clubs keep going for Sam and Pulis - and why those two are multimillionaires. If he keeps us up, few chairmen will care what brand of football he played to do it...few fans will either.

We'll be bottom of the pile if we do stay up, though. Not many players will be racing to play for a side that only just stayed up and has a wage cap like ours. Hopefully we get in something that lets us play better football (or just play football at all), but I'll not hold my breath.

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Re: We are (hopefully) staying up: the opposition

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:12 am

Prufrock wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:29 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:21 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:14 pm
That's great, good for you, but not everyone is the same. It doesn't make people snobs.

I'd genuinely rather finish, say 8th in the Champo, spending all season pushing and hoping for play-offs, getting it down on the front foot looking a threat, than finish 2nd under Tony Pulis. It's not an ideology; I'd rather long ball then get relegated, and I'd probably take that 2nd if it were in league 1. But there are many things that people want and is isn't snobbery to want "good" football.
I personally think that anyone who genuinely thinks like that should find another hobby. In fact as much as you've said that I don't believe you.

You loved being in the premiership and Europe under Allardyce. When Spurs/West Ham fans said exactly the same you just have.

I'm quite enjoying seeing the likes of Stoke and Southampton fans realise what happens when you get bored of your "boring football managers" and "go for it". Going well for them. Meanwhile the bloke Southampton fans hounded out for being "negative and dour" is in the top half of the premiership. Mind, I've no doubt Southampton fans are happier where they are, so long as they're playing nice football....under Mark Hughes now....oh......
And I think that if you think there's no difference for a fan in watching a team managed by Tony Pulis and one by Pep Guiadiola so long as the results are the same then you're missing something fundamental and brilliant about football. I'm gracious though, so I'll let you keep your hobby.

A few other points:

1) I think 'short passing and 70% possession'=good football is too simplistic. I don't think it can be defined in a paragraph, but high-tempo, front-foot at pace and with control is a good start. That would not cover lumping Wheater and Beevers up top and twatting it at them but it does cover lots of different styles. I reject entirely the idea that the football under Allardyce, particularly for the first few years we started to punch above our weight, was not entertaining. It was shit at times but any team play badly sometimes, and it got a bit too functional by the end, but I did not just love it because we were getting into Europe. That team, with Okocha in his pomp, Djorkaeff early on and then Campo, Hierro, Stelios, Diouf and Speed was a joy to watch at times. It wasn't tiki taka, but it was a lot more controlled and deliberate that smash it at Davies and see what happens. We'd box teams in and build pressure and make chances.

2) the extent to which I'd sacrifice results for entertainment depends on the context. As I said, I'd sacrifice entertainment to get out of League 1. I picked 2nd in my example above on purpose too as I'd probably sacrifice it to win something. I'd probably sacrifice it to get into Europe again. I wouldn't sacrifice it just to finish 13th again in a league we're never going to win, or to get into that league in the first place.

3)I've never had any quibble with Spurs fans or West Ham fans who want to watch good football. Where they have been ridiculous across the years is when they try to use "good football" as some sort of moral victory. I'd rather finish 8th being entertaining than 2nd not, but I wouldn't argue in that case that we somehow "deserved" to finish 2nd. Lots of the West Ham/Spurs stuff was also nonsense: they were shit without being any good to watch, and no-one wants that. It was sour grapes after they lost. I'm not interested in telling anyone else their team is less worthy because I don't care for their style, that isn't up to me. I just want my lot to have a go, and get me off my seat.

4) I did argue in the past that we should stay up at all costs, and I thought the decision to rest players for Wigan made sense at the time. Then we got relegated and football carried on and I realised that way of thinking is part of the Brand Premiership that Sky are so good at selling. Who cares if you don't enjoy it, if you throw away a chance to make history, to win a trophy, to possibly see Bolton in a European final, in Manchester (Rangers in the semis...). No it's best you make sure you're in the Prem again next year, you might even get 12th.

5) You're enjoying seeing Southampton and Stoke struggle, I think it's deeply sad. Even less than when we were there, no-one can compete with the top 6 anymore. You spend a few years scrapping to stay up and play the big boys and then before you know it you're playing for corners in a home game against Watford hoping to nick a 1-0 so you can do it all again next year.

Nope, not for me. As I say, I'm not an idealist. I broadly agree with DSB's Hierarchy of Needs above, with the caveat that "success" is hard to define and depends on context.

The point though, is that people are entitled to want to be entertained when they watch football, and they aren't worse fans, or snobs, or not 'getting' it because scrapping a 1-0 off a set-piece for 9 months is less than appealing.
There are many things in this post broader than what was originally discussed. If we had the sort of money to fund a Guardiola team then I'd be disappointed if we had Pulis.

The realities of football nowadays are that the top teams take so many players that unless you're competing financially with them (even then) its hard to compete like for like. So you have to find players that can do other things usually to be successful. That often involves a less exciting, more functional brand of football.

When Leicester won the league by sitting deep often and using Vardy's pace and Maherez's individual brilliance they certainly didn't play football as well as Spurs did....but I bet their fans couldn't care less. Like you couldn't care less that Allardyce was roundly criticised for the style he had here...so much so that you're almost re-writing history. Yes we had good players and things were exciting, but the actual style of football on display generally wasn't "free flowing tiki-taka". It was mostly get people behind the ball and try and nick one up the other end. People forget because it was exciting in itself having good players and winning. But people forget Okocha being turned into a long throw machine. They forget clinging on for 0-0 at places like Southampton, and barely having an attack all game. They forget home games against lower league teams and creating only 1 chance all game. Because generally we had a hugely successful team and it was an exciting time.

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Re: We are (hopefully) staying up: the opposition

Post by TANGODANCER » Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:34 am

A couple of notes from the King of the Specsavers rose-tinted optical aids department... You may disagree as you will, and as ever I don't expect solid answers because I doubt there are any, but.........

You don't need to be a season ticket holder or to have watched every game since Nicky Hunt leathered the ball hopefully forth to face a few home truths. Let's put the rose-tinters away for this season and accept a few facts. As a football club we're now very small potatoes outside the parish boundaries of Breightmet, Kearsley, Howfen and Astley Bridge in the year of Our Lord 2018. Nobody fears us in the slightest, thanks mainly not just to football, but to several years of financial mishandling, poor management, greedy agents and players who thought they were better than they actually were (backed up by the lack of world-beating deeds of derring do from anyone bar a half-dozen who once wore the White shirt and have since faded away like supermarket flowers once they left the store, or have had careers ended by injury) Marvin Sordell scoring is achievement? Gary Madine not scoring is news? We have no choice but to hope and (maybe even pray if you think we matter in the grand scheme of it all) that fortune and a couple of decent refs see us over the great escape barbed wire at least for now. Due mainly to the rose by any other name still being a rose, football is all about money; not sport, not skill, not loyalty not pride, but plenty brass in the bank and that's the biggest "No shxt Sherlock" since discovering he wasn't real.

Okay, if you accept this as fact, unless a Russian oligarcch, an American candy magnate or the Aga Khan of the millenium era come along desperate to put money somewhere other than the bank, what happens next? . Ken has started digging a small tunnel based on some ecomomic wrangling, a starvation diet of Jags and Bentley and a firm belief in his own methods, but should Parky be tempted away if the miracle happens, where do we go from here? As a business we're about as successful as a salesman selling Bibles in Mecca and but for our youth endeavours we have less to be "Oh Be Joyful about today since Duttons were taken over by Whitbred. Where does the reality really lie?

Come on you Whites.....Quo Vadis?
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Re: We are (hopefully) staying up: the opposition

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:16 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:34 am
A couple of notes from the King of the Specsavers rose-tinted optical aids department... You may disagree as you will, and as ever I don't expect solid answers because I doubt there are any, but.........

You don't need to be a season ticket holder or to have watched every game since Nicky Hunt leathered the ball hopefully forth to face a few home truths. Let's put the rose-tinters away for this season and accept a few facts. As a football club we're now very small potatoes outside the parish boundaries of Breightmet, Kearsley, Howfen and Astley Bridge in the year of Our Lord 2018. Nobody fears us in the slightest, thanks mainly not just to football, but to several years of financial mishandling, poor management, greedy agents and players who thought they were better than they actually were (backed up by the lack of world-beating deeds of derring do from anyone bar a half-dozen who once wore the White shirt and have since faded away like supermarket flowers once they left the store, or have had careers ended by injury) Marvin Sordell scoring is achievement? Gary Madine not scoring is news? We have no choice but to hope and (maybe even pray if you think we matter in the grand scheme of it all) that fortune and a couple of decent refs see us over the great escape barbed wire at least for now. Due mainly to the rose by any other name still being a rose, football is all about money; not sport, not skill, not loyalty not pride, but plenty brass in the bank and that's the biggest "No shxt Sherlock" since discovering he wasn't real.

Okay, if you accept this as fact, unless a Russian oligarcch, an American candy magnate or the Aga Khan of the millenium era come along desperate to put money somewhere other than the bank, what happens next? . Ken has started digging a small tunnel based on some ecomomic wrangling, a starvation diet of Jags and Bentley and a firm belief in his own methods, but should Parky be tempted away if the miracle happens, where do we go from here? As a business we're about as successful as a salesman selling Bibles in Mecca and but for our youth endeavours we have less to be "Oh Be Joyful about today since Duttons were taken over by Whitbred. Where does the reality really lie?

Come on you Whites.....Quo Vadis?
Indeed TD. One of the best posts on here in recent times.

We are hoping that someone with some money takes us over or offers investment because without that the future is at best more of the same. And that is the harsh reality of football in 2018. Especially when you get yourselves in the financial wormhole we managed to.

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Re: We are (hopefully) staying up: the opposition

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:44 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:29 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:21 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:14 pm
That's great, good for you, but not everyone is the same. It doesn't make people snobs.

I'd genuinely rather finish, say 8th in the Champo, spending all season pushing and hoping for play-offs, getting it down on the front foot looking a threat, than finish 2nd under Tony Pulis. It's not an ideology; I'd rather long ball then get relegated, and I'd probably take that 2nd if it were in league 1. But there are many things that people want and is isn't snobbery to want "good" football.
I personally think that anyone who genuinely thinks like that should find another hobby. In fact as much as you've said that I don't believe you.

You loved being in the premiership and Europe under Allardyce. When Spurs/West Ham fans said exactly the same you just have.

I'm quite enjoying seeing the likes of Stoke and Southampton fans realise what happens when you get bored of your "boring football managers" and "go for it". Going well for them. Meanwhile the bloke Southampton fans hounded out for being "negative and dour" is in the top half of the premiership. Mind, I've no doubt Southampton fans are happier where they are, so long as they're playing nice football....under Mark Hughes now....oh......
And I think that if you think there's no difference for a fan in watching a team managed by Tony Pulis and one by Pep Guiadiola so long as the results are the same then you're missing something fundamental and brilliant about football. I'm gracious though, so I'll let you keep your hobby.

A few other points:

1) I think 'short passing and 70% possession'=good football is too simplistic. I don't think it can be defined in a paragraph, but high-tempo, front-foot at pace and with control is a good start. That would not cover lumping Wheater and Beevers up top and twatting it at them but it does cover lots of different styles. I reject entirely the idea that the football under Allardyce, particularly for the first few years we started to punch above our weight, was not entertaining. It was shit at times but any team play badly sometimes, and it got a bit too functional by the end, but I did not just love it because we were getting into Europe. That team, with Okocha in his pomp, Djorkaeff early on and then Campo, Hierro, Stelios, Diouf and Speed was a joy to watch at times. It wasn't tiki taka, but it was a lot more controlled and deliberate that smash it at Davies and see what happens. We'd box teams in and build pressure and make chances.

2) the extent to which I'd sacrifice results for entertainment depends on the context. As I said, I'd sacrifice entertainment to get out of League 1. I picked 2nd in my example above on purpose too as I'd probably sacrifice it to win something. I'd probably sacrifice it to get into Europe again. I wouldn't sacrifice it just to finish 13th again in a league we're never going to win, or to get into that league in the first place.

3)I've never had any quibble with Spurs fans or West Ham fans who want to watch good football. Where they have been ridiculous across the years is when they try to use "good football" as some sort of moral victory. I'd rather finish 8th being entertaining than 2nd not, but I wouldn't argue in that case that we somehow "deserved" to finish 2nd. Lots of the West Ham/Spurs stuff was also nonsense: they were shit without being any good to watch, and no-one wants that. It was sour grapes after they lost. I'm not interested in telling anyone else their team is less worthy because I don't care for their style, that isn't up to me. I just want my lot to have a go, and get me off my seat.

4) I did argue in the past that we should stay up at all costs, and I thought the decision to rest players for Wigan made sense at the time. Then we got relegated and football carried on and I realised that way of thinking is part of the Brand Premiership that Sky are so good at selling. Who cares if you don't enjoy it, if you throw away a chance to make history, to win a trophy, to possibly see Bolton in a European final, in Manchester (Rangers in the semis...). No it's best you make sure you're in the Prem again next year, you might even get 12th.

5) You're enjoying seeing Southampton and Stoke struggle, I think it's deeply sad. Even less than when we were there, no-one can compete with the top 6 anymore. You spend a few years scrapping to stay up and play the big boys and then before you know it you're playing for corners in a home game against Watford hoping to nick a 1-0 so you can do it all again next year.

Nope, not for me. As I say, I'm not an idealist. I broadly agree with DSB's Hierarchy of Needs above, with the caveat that "success" is hard to define and depends on context.

The point though, is that people are entitled to want to be entertained when they watch football, and they aren't worse fans, or snobs, or not 'getting' it because scrapping a 1-0 off a set-piece for 9 months is less than appealing.
Yes. That^, all of that.
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Re: We are (hopefully) staying up: the opposition

Post by TANGODANCER » Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:20 am

I'm thinking (quietly) to myself that beloved Chairman Ken might be advised to go easy on the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune at this moment in time. They're already descending with force upon ye dressing tent and it might be best to let Parky earn his wage without adding to said missiles. A little encouragement might fare better on the battle front. Historians might recall we once hung ye Earl of Derby outside the Man and Scythe. Folk don't forget things like that. :wink:
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Re: We are (hopefully) staying up: the opposition

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:48 pm

L Barnsley 1-0 Sheff Utd (Gardner 25')

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Re: We are (hopefully) staying up: the opposition

Post by jmjhb » Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:11 pm

Sheff Utd having a stinker. That last min equaliser knocked their confidence.

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Re: We are (hopefully) staying up: the opposition

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:37 pm

L Barnsley 1-1 Sheff Utd (Fleck 57')

:-)

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Re: We are (hopefully) staying up: the opposition

Post by jmjhb » Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:45 pm

Blades winning now.

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Re: We are (hopefully) staying up: the opposition

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:46 pm

L Barnsley 1-2 Sheff Utd (Clarke 65')

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Re: We are (hopefully) staying up: the opposition

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:54 pm

L Barnsley 2-2 Sheff U (McBurnie 74')

Think that's his ninth in 11 games or something

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Re: We are (hopefully) staying up: the opposition

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:09 pm

L Barnsley (Bradshaw 88') 3-2 Sheff U

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Re: We are (hopefully) staying up: the opposition

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:17 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:09 pm
L Barnsley (Bradshaw 88') 3-2 Sheff U
FT Barnsley 3-2 Sheff U.
Screen Shot 2018-04-07 at 14.16.39.png
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Re: We are (hopefully) staying up: the opposition

Post by TANGODANCER » Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:50 pm

Barnsley sticking three past Sheffield...didn't expect that at all....
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Re: We are (hopefully) staying up: the opposition

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:30 pm

ICYMI: Not a great day.

FT Barnsley 3-2 Sheff U
FT Birmingham 1-1 Burton
FT Derby 3-0 Bolton
FT Hull 4-0 QPR
FT Leeds 1-1 Sunderland
FT Reading 1-0 Preston
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Re: We are (hopefully) staying up: the opposition

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:01 pm

Just noticed that in 2012 we were relegated after thinking we were fairly safe in March: we won one of the last eight... against Villa.

We've now won one of our last eight... against Villa.

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Re: We are (hopefully) staying up: the opposition

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:58 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:01 pm
Just noticed that in 2012 we were relegated after thinking we were fairly safe in March: we won one of the last eight... against Villa.

We've now won one of our last eight... against Villa.
By that reckoning we an expect to be relegated and then drop through the lower division too. Oh joy :hang:

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Re: We are (hopefully) staying up: the opposition

Post by DJBlu » Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:20 pm

Plenty more twists and turns in the last 5 games. We'll beat Millwall and Wolves whilst drawing at Barnsley. That's how it's been. Turn up for the big games and think we'll walk all over the teams around us.

Birmingham and Barnsley have hit a little bit of form. Reading have turned a corner which means they'll all lose their next games.

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