Tonight's Football

There ARE other teams(we'd have no-one to play otherwise) and here's where all-comers can discuss the wider world of football......

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TANGODANCER
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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by TANGODANCER » Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:30 pm

My comments on Southgate were based on the last couple of (obviously experimental) games, not his general managing ability which is fine. We will have to learn to play against Peaky Blinder bully boy sides and stop leaving holes at the back that a Sherman tank could get through. ( Take a lesson from Hungary)We also need somebody other than Saka out wide. Teams are fast, aggressive and fit today and we can only hope our manager is confident he knows the score.

I'd be having a word with Sterling too about his work ethic; he seems a bit reluctant to sally forth, and there's touch of live hand-grenade about his desire to part with the ball so quick. In previous games he was almost unplayable. Just comments.
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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Prufrock » Thu Jun 16, 2022 4:38 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:02 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:55 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:02 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:27 pm
Potter every day of the week for me. If not yeah, I'm struggling too.
I see him in the same mould as Gareth. Probably a brilliant coach and knows how to get the best out of players but are either genuine winners? Not sure.

Southgate was a Modric and penalty shootout away from winning. Closer than I expected.
I just don't see any evidence at all that Southgate is a brilliant coach. I don't think he gets the tactical side at all. He's Owen Coyle.

Potter on the other hand has got a great tune out of that Brighton squad, their main, really only, issue is scoring goals and that's almost all quality. Maupay and Welbeck...

I don't really buy the winner argument, not that it isn't important just that it's impossible to tell for the vast majority of managers who just don't have the option.

As I've said, I recognise this is largely opinions, but we should have beaten Croatia and Italy IMO. They're one of games, you can lose either, but I was never ever convinced we were set up to give us our best chance, rather than hanging in and hoping to get through. Sure we scored early in both games, but that can hardly be a disadvantage. Proper team keep the ball then and go on and win.

Croatia for example figured out we couldn't defend down both sides due to the shape, and passed us off the pitch. 2v1 down one side, through Modric and Rakitic to 2v1 on the other. From about the 15th minute. Was obvious, and we did nothing.
And I think it’s very easy to pick managers tactically. I mean we could go on all day about Evatt getting things wrong and not fixing them and give me a few months and I probably will.

But I’m not as convinced that it’s major tactical failings as just players not quite getting over the line in massive games against very good sides.

Two tournaments where we’ve done well and vastly better than any in the preceding two decades for me is evidence he’s doing more, much more, right than wrong.

Losing to Iceland then losing on penalties to Italy in a final is not an improvement but a monumental one.
Oh he's better than Roy sure. Roy was a disaster. Gareth isn't that, I'm just frustrated in that in peak Harry Kane we have a golden chance and should have gone that bit better.

I'm not sure e.g. losing a semi final (you should have won) is *vastly* better than losing two QF shoot outs either (especially when your opponents in the QF were Sweden not Portugal)

I'm not even sure getting to a final past Ukraine and Denmark meets "vast" either, tbh.
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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Jun 16, 2022 6:06 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 4:38 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:02 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:55 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:02 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:27 pm
Potter every day of the week for me. If not yeah, I'm struggling too.
I see him in the same mould as Gareth. Probably a brilliant coach and knows how to get the best out of players but are either genuine winners? Not sure.

Southgate was a Modric and penalty shootout away from winning. Closer than I expected.
I just don't see any evidence at all that Southgate is a brilliant coach. I don't think he gets the tactical side at all. He's Owen Coyle.

Potter on the other hand has got a great tune out of that Brighton squad, their main, really only, issue is scoring goals and that's almost all quality. Maupay and Welbeck...

I don't really buy the winner argument, not that it isn't important just that it's impossible to tell for the vast majority of managers who just don't have the option.

As I've said, I recognise this is largely opinions, but we should have beaten Croatia and Italy IMO. They're one of games, you can lose either, but I was never ever convinced we were set up to give us our best chance, rather than hanging in and hoping to get through. Sure we scored early in both games, but that can hardly be a disadvantage. Proper team keep the ball then and go on and win.

Croatia for example figured out we couldn't defend down both sides due to the shape, and passed us off the pitch. 2v1 down one side, through Modric and Rakitic to 2v1 on the other. From about the 15th minute. Was obvious, and we did nothing.
And I think it’s very easy to pick managers tactically. I mean we could go on all day about Evatt getting things wrong and not fixing them and give me a few months and I probably will.

But I’m not as convinced that it’s major tactical failings as just players not quite getting over the line in massive games against very good sides.

Two tournaments where we’ve done well and vastly better than any in the preceding two decades for me is evidence he’s doing more, much more, right than wrong.

Losing to Iceland then losing on penalties to Italy in a final is not an improvement but a monumental one.
Oh he's better than Roy sure. Roy was a disaster. Gareth isn't that, I'm just frustrated in that in peak Harry Kane we have a golden chance and should have gone that bit better.

I'm not sure e.g. losing a semi final (you should have won) is *vastly* better than losing two QF shoot outs either (especially when your opponents in the QF were Sweden not Portugal)

I'm not even sure getting to a final past Ukraine and Denmark meets "vast" either, tbh.
Not sure I’m with you on ‘should have’. In both games we came up against teams with more experience and more proven quality. Modric, Rakitic etc. how many games were Italy unbeaten and their know how was immense. Both games we came close, especially against Italy. You could change manager and those games be entirely the same. Or worse.

You can cite peak Kane who if we are honest looked jaded by the end of each tournament but I’d say look at the midfield we had to get to the final. It was not great. Not by international standards. There are areas we are absolutely weaker in than others and I think we were up there in the euros right up there. And lost on penalties.

I’m not some massive Southgate fan. But most of the criticism of him seems harsh in the context of the failures England have endured over the years. Much of it also seems politically motivated which also raises the heckles. I don’t think he’s the best manager to ever walk the earth and there are better by far. But international football requires a different skill set to club stuff and I think he’s probably better suited than many.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Prufrock » Thu Jun 16, 2022 10:59 pm

I totally accept "should have" is an opinion. But I do stand by it.

Your etc on Croatia is doing a lot. Modric, Rakitic and *maybe* Vrsjalko would have got into that England team. Perisic since converted to a WB but...yeah. We should have won that game. France won the final comfortably.

Italy, I said through the tournament and maintain they weren't great. They haven't qualified for the world cup. They had a very good manager and had a good run, but they were beatable. Swap managers in that final and I think England win. Absolutely nothing up top at all.

In both games we took an early lead and went back in our shell. He just doesn't *get it* in the teams he picks.. It's very Owen Coyle. Talk a good game and sometimes it comes off by fluke but he doesn't have the underlying understanding to know why.
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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri Jun 17, 2022 12:08 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 10:59 pm
I totally accept "should have" is an opinion. But I do stand by it.

Your etc on Croatia is doing a lot. Modric, Rakitic and *maybe* Vrsjalko would have got into that England team. Perisic since converted to a WB but...yeah. We should have won that game. France won the final comfortably.

Italy, I said through the tournament and maintain they weren't great. They haven't qualified for the world cup. They had a very good manager and had a good run, but they were beatable. Swap managers in that final and I think England win. Absolutely nothing up top at all.

In both games we took an early lead and went back in our shell. He just doesn't *get it* in the teams he picks.. It's very Owen Coyle. Talk a good game and sometimes it comes off by fluke but he doesn't have the underlying understanding to know why.
We should have beaten Germany in 96 but didn’t. We were in effect an inch away. That’s international football. That’s tournament football. You can argue should have done this or that or tactics. I think you often overrate English players vs the teams we face. That Italy side were unbeaten in a ridiculous time for a reason. They had an outstanding defence, the experience and know how to get results. I said through the tournament that was what I feared more as England were a younger side with less know how and more players who would find the really biggest games more difficult than Italy and their levels of experience would.

The final for me was less about tactics and more about experience vs energy. England lacked the experience and know how but had energy, when that ran out it became tougher.

I think it’s obvious where Southgate’s limitations and blind spots are. But much of the criticism has turned out to be a bit overblown. Grealish a good example. Why isn’t he playing him…and we now know why, because he’s not the saviour people pretended he was going to be and certainly Guardiola came to the same conclusion about trusting him or not in big games.

I don’t even particularly like Southgate. I just think that having watched England a long time it’s unlikely there is anyone who would do significantly better. We went through a generation of supposed superstars and didn’t get close. We were a couple of penalty kicks away.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Mar » Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:58 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:36 pm
That Eriksson didn't get that group of players beyond the QF in 2006 marks him down as having been an absolute Charlatan, for me.

When Rooney got sent off I remember thinking - here we go, this is why Eriksson's England manager and I'm not. We're down to ten, we need someone with pace to burn who can tire their defenders out; this is where Eriksson gives us all a massive V and get's to say "I told you so" afterwards by bringing on the hitherto unheard of kid, Theo Walcott (selected for his pace, let's not forget).

Oh no, no, no. Eriksson took Joe Cole off and stuck Peter Crouch on instead. fecking genius :roll:
Bringing Theo Walcott should've been a sackable offence in itself. Clearly England managers shouldn't be left to their own devices and they should have someone helping them out to save them from their selves. Hoddle not bringing game changers like Gascoigne & Le Tissier, Eriksson brining Walcott, Capello's approach on locking down the players and now Southgate and his tactical deficiencies mid to late game.

I like Southgate. I like what he's done off the pitch and how he's brought the players, the media, etc. together. He's worked wonders, but he's not the be-all solution that we need. I would like him to acknowledge that and get some help tactically. No point everyone relying upon Southgate when the match starts. For me Southgate has done his job well before the game and we mustn't forget that.

Lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Bad results don't turn us bad overnight, but we are missing something, and without addressing that, i'm fairly certain the narrative that Southgate has worked ever so hard on will shift against him.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Bruce Rioja » Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:29 am

Mar wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:58 pm
Hoddle not bringing game changers like Gascoigne & Le Tissier
From memory, Hoddle decided to take Rob Lee instead of Gascoigne. Rob fecking Lee!
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