Benitez .... prick

[blurred]

Because he wanted to play for Real Madrid, as did Arbeloa. The same that if Barcelona ever actually come in for Fabregas in any serious way he'll be offski, pronto. The players can force the club's hand when they want to move and a big wad of money is dangled in front of their faces - see Lescott to Man City, for instance. Player power.

[Worthy4England]

Being better than Evans and Souness is hardly LFC's ambition though is it?

At no point under Benitez have you ever looked remotely likely to win the title, and so questions will rightly be asked IMO.

At no point in the last 4/5 years have Arsenal looked like winning the title, so why not the same witch hunt over Wenger?

Benitez has come in and done a fantastic job at Liverpool and if you can't see that then you're either blinkered, biased or just a bit of a dick. His European and domestic record pisses over every manager since Dalglish, and ok we've not come particularly close to winning the title (last year apart) but there have been year on year improvements, which is about as much as you can ask for, realistically.

He's always going to struggle to win a league where our wage bill is dwarfed by other clubs (and if anyone's read the book 'Why England Lose' then you'll know where I'm coming from; if not, then off the top of my head it's something like 93% of success goes down to those with the highest wage bill), so unfortunately we're going to be one of those clubs whose 'ambition' such as it is is to come in the top 3/4 each year, because that's commensurate with where we should be finishing based on a number of factors (transfer spend, wage bill, etc). Occasionally we'll overperform, like last year (when we really threw away our best chance to win the league in nearly 20 years), and sometimes we'll underperform, but to be honest I can't see anyone coming in and doing a markedly better job than Rafa has done and is continuing to do.

Also, who'd be mad enough to want to come to Liverpool with the finances and boardroom in the state they are at the minute? Having to sell to buy, no real money to spend, debt repayments coming out of our ears, unclear direction from the owners...

My heart bleeds.

Liverpool have spent more than Arsenal and United fairly comfortably since Benitez joined in 2005.

The wage bill is lower fairly considerably, than United's (by about £30m (2008)) and £10m adrift of Arsenal's from 2008 Accounts. But United have something like double the non-playing staff compared to Liverpool's 249 - 137 "Players, Managers (sic) and Coaches" for Liverpool.

Oh and United paid out £13.3m in bonuses, which you need to do when you win shit, in 2008 which I don't recall adversley affected Rafa's side in the same reporting period.

[CAPSLOCK]

Because he wanted to play for Real Madrid, as did Arbeloa. The same that if Barcelona ever actually come in for Fabregas in any serious way he'll be offski, pronto. The players can force the club's hand when they want to move and a big wad of money is dangled in front of their faces - see Lescott to Man City, for instance. Player power.

So it wasn't cos Benitez fcuked him about?

Ahh, ok

[blurred]

Because he wanted to play for Real Madrid, as did Arbeloa. The same that if Barcelona ever actually come in for Fabregas in any serious way he'll be offski, pronto. The players can force the club's hand when they want to move and a big wad of money is dangled in front of their faces - see Lescott to Man City, for instance. Player power.

So it wasn't cos Benitez fcuked him about?

Ahh, ok

He was under contract for another 3 years, I think. Benitez could've told Madrid to go and swivel if he wanted to keep him, but figured that it'd be better to extract the money and get a moody player off the books than have him hanging around and potentially causing trouble. And Benitez didn't 'feck him around' - he wanted to sell him last summer if he could get a reasonable amount after Alonso's performances had been off the boil for a good 18 months or so. He couldn't get the amount he wanted, the board wouldn't sanction the Barry transfer anyway, so he kept him. Alonso went on to put in the sort of level of performances for us last season as he did in his first 18 months or so, before Madrid came knocking with huge cash.

[bobo the clown]

Because he wanted to play for Real Madrid, as did Arbeloa. The same that if Barcelona ever actually come in for Fabregas in any serious way he'll be offski, pronto. The players can force the club's hand when they want to move and a big wad of money is dangled in front of their faces - see Lescott to Man City, for instance. Player power.

So it wasn't cos Benitez fcuked him about?

Ahh, ok

He was under contract for another 3 years, I think. Benitez could've told Madrid to go and swivel if he wanted to keep him, but figured that it'd be better to extract the money and get a moody player off the books than have him hanging around and potentially causing trouble. And Benitez didn't 'feck him around' - he wanted to sell him last summer if he could get a reasonable amount after Alonso's performances had been off the boil for a good 18 months or so. He couldn't get the amount he wanted, the board wouldn't sanction the Barry transfer anyway, so he kept him. Alonso went on to put in the sort of level of performances for us last season as he did in his first 18 months or so, before Madrid came knocking with huge cash.

Very conveniently overlooking that the summer before Benitez had done everything in his power to get him out so he could fund overpaying for Gareth Barry. The guy refused to budge ... & went on to be your best player last year.

Nothing to do with Benitez then that, when invited to join the worlds best club he took the option ? No, of course not.

The guys a toss-pot.

[blurred]

Very conveniently overlooking that the summer before Benitez had done everything in his power to get him out so he could fund overpaying for Gareth Barry. The guy refused to budge ... & went on to be your best player last year.

Nothing to do with Benitez then that, when invited to join the worlds best club he took the option ? No, of course not.

The guys a toss-pot.

He was under contract for another 3 years, I think. Benitez could've told Madrid to go and swivel if he wanted to keep him, but figured that it'd be better to extract the money and get a moody player off the books than have him hanging around and potentially causing trouble. And Benitez didn't 'feck him around' - he wanted to sell him last summer if he could get a reasonable amount after Alonso's performances had been off the boil for a good 18 months or so. He couldn't get the amount he wanted, the board wouldn't sanction the Barry transfer anyway, so he kept him. Alonso went on to put in the sort of level of performances for us last season as he did in his first 18 months or so, before Madrid came knocking with huge cash.

Yes, I've obviously conveniently overlooked the fact he wanted to sell him by, er, mentioning it explicitly. Damn my convenient overlooking.

[Hoboh]

Oh blurred!!

Strip Torro n Gerro out your team and you'd not finish any where near the top 4, the Spanish waiter has wasted your cash, go to spec savers and improve your vision.
Before you have a pop back WE DON'T WANT MEGSON and accept we are crap for now, we will be back but will you lot with no cash unless some dollar crapin' oil p*ssing desert reclaiming Arab buys your club?

[boltonboris]

I've read all the to-ing and fro-ing and weighed up both sides of the Benitez row... I've come to the conclusion, that he's a bit of a prick

That's Science

[thebish]

long may this thread continue - but just a brief note to mark the patient forebearance of Blurred who continues to contribute in a well-argued and reasoned way rarely losing his rag... as a Bolton fan in residence on a rival forum, I know that it is a special skill to remain a regular contributor over the long term and not just lose your rag... or become a camp WUM

anyway - as you were..

and - errr... Benitez is a prick

[bobo the clown]

Very conveniently overlooking that the summer before Benitez had done everything in his power to get him out so he could fund overpaying for Gareth Barry. The guy refused to budge ... & went on to be your best player last year.

The guys a toss-pot.

He was under contract for another 3 years, I think. Benitez could've told Madrid to go and swivel if he wanted to keep him, but figured that it'd be better to extract the money and get a moody player off the books than have him hanging around and potentially causing trouble. And Benitez didn't 'feck him around' - he wanted to sell him last summer if he could get a reasonable amount after Alonso's performances had been off the boil for a good 18 months or so. He couldn't get the amount he wanted, the board wouldn't sanction the Barry transfer anyway, so he kept him. Alonso went on to put in the sort of level of performances for us last season as he did in his first 18 months or so, before Madrid came knocking with huge cash.

Yes, I've obviously conveniently overlooked the fact he wanted to sell him by, er, mentioning it explicitly. Damn my convenient overlooking.

My apologies, you clearly did mention it. The interpretation you put on it was curious, but you did mention it.

Alonso was on a long contract, but Benitez moved Heaven & Earth to get him to go. The guy didn't want to and hung in. All this to afford the purchase of a guy 1/2 as good as him.

If he'd been "off the boil for a good 18m or so" then that was the managers job to get him playing well again. He seemed to succeed in this by accident, certainly not design, when he pissed him off by that treatment. He then got all sniffy when the guy then decided that this summer he would go for, I believe, more than he'd have taken the year earlier.

The guy's a prick.

[Village_Idiot2]

Blurred, examples of shocking midrange signings to me: Dossena, Babel, Keane, Bellamy, Josemi, Pennant, Morientes. I'm not including stuff like Voronin, Kromkamp or Degen, which have been utter failures but were free. Those are the kind of signings that eventually build the depth of a team. Players like Keane and Bellamy are doing good in other places, which to me is more aggravating given the problems you have upfront when Torres isn't there. Riera and Leiva shouldn't be starting for a team challenging the EPL title, but I don't think they will be there when everybody is fit.

Again, I don't think all the criticism he gets is warranted but I do think that he hasn't planned the squad adequately. I don't blame him for losing Alonso. If a player wants out, he'll be out. But you have played practically half a season without a playmaker.

[Bruce Rioja]

He was under contract for another 3 years, I think. Benitez could've told Madrid to go and swivel if he wanted to keep him, but figured that it'd be better to extract the money and get a moody player off the books than have him hanging around and potentially causing trouble.

And then spunk the greater part of the money that he received for a world-beating player on an average full back like Glen Johnson? Good move that! Thumbs up there, Rafa.

[blurred]

Blurred, examples of shocking midrange signings to me: Dossena, Babel, Keane, Bellamy, Josemi, Pennant, Morientes. I'm not including stuff like Voronin, Kromkamp or Degen, which have been utter failures but were free.

Well that's a first, because those latter players are usually cited (along with the likes of Nunez and the kids) as being poor signings, which is just barmy to me, so fair enough. Quite why you discount Kromkamp but include Josemi, though, is a strange one - between them they cost nothing. Josemi was bought for £2m, flogged for nowt, Kromkamp was brought in for nowt and flogged for about £2m. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't expect a squad player for £2m to be an amazing signing - they came in and did the job (back-up to Finnan) at no overall cost (bar wages) for two seasons.

Dossena and Babel I will give you, along with Pennant, because they've all been pretty disappointing. Still, no manager can get them all right, I suppose, but when you look at the Italian national team left back, a 20 year old Dutch lad already playing in the senior national side and an English winger who had been playing very well in the Premier League then you can see the logic behind the purchases. Not everything works out, though.

Morientes is a strange one - I'm not sure there are many teams who wouldn't have taken a shot on a player of his pedigree for around £5m, though. As it happened it didn't come to great fruition, and we got most of the dosh back from Valencia.

I know he's bought players who haven't worked out, but he's had a hefty number of successes too. The same as every manager. Ferguson, Wenger, Hughes, Redknapp, Megson... All of them have had good and bad signings.

Those are the kind of signings that eventually build the depth of a team. Players like Keane and Bellamy are doing good in other places, which to me is more aggravating given the problems you have upfront when Torres isn't there.

The point is, though, that if Bellamy was still here then Torres wouldn't be. He was sold to fund the purchase of a player who I think is the best striker in world football today. Yes, it'd've been great to keep him on the bench, the same way that we'd've liked to have Crouch or Keane on the bench, but finances dictate that players who cost a fortune shouldn't be sitting around on the bench every week, and their professional pride means that they want to be playing week in week out. Something had to give. And besides, we made a profit on Bellamy, so it's not all bad.

Riera and Leiva shouldn't be starting for a team challenging the EPL title, but I don't think they will be there when everybody is fit.

Riera doesn't start, and I don't think Lucas will be a permanent feature once Aquilani's fit. He's actually been playing reasonably well this season (still gets dog's abuse from the fans most of the time, but oh well) and is starting to look like a player who can do a good job for us.

Again, I don't think all the criticism he gets is warranted but I do think that he hasn't planned the squad adequately. I don't blame him for losing Alonso. If a player wants out, he'll be out. But you have played practically half a season without a playmaker.

As Benitez said when he signed him - you buy a player for 5 years, not for 5 matches. Ok, it's not been a nice sight seeing Aquilani only play 15 minutes or so thus far, but I have a feeling that his injury problems and record over the last few years is because he's constantly rushed back into the team before being fully fit. I'd happily have him sit on the bench till January if it meant that we'd get 5 months uninterrupted out of him, rather than bring him in now for a few weeks, out for a few weeks, back for a few weeks, out for a few weeks...

I'll give you some shocking mid-range signings of my own: Nani, Anderson, Tosic... Best part of £30m wasted there for next to feck all end result. And Hargreaves' injury record has proven to be up to scratch, hasn't it? 170 appearances in 10 years he's made, and people are criticising the signing of Aquilani...

[blurred]

He was under contract for another 3 years, I think. Benitez could've told Madrid to go and swivel if he wanted to keep him, but figured that it'd be better to extract the money and get a moody player off the books than have him hanging around and potentially causing trouble.

And then spunk the greater part of the money that he received for a world-beating player on an average full back like Glen Johnson? Good move that! Thumbs up there, Rafa.

He didn't, actually - the Alonso money went to fund the purchase of Aquilani, who effectively 'replaces him' in the squad. Johnson was signed before Alonso was sold, and part of the reason we 'spunked a load of cash' was because Pompey still owed us a shitload from our sale of Crouch, which we cashed in in taking Johnson off their hands. Seems a good move, seeing as they've got no money and have defaulted on other transfer payments - that'd've left us in an even bigger hole if we'd waited for our money.

Johnson being the England international fullback who's been one of our best players this season, of course.

I'd personally say it was a good move.

[BWFC_Insane]

It comes I suppose down to a similar debate to the one we have about Megson.

Megson has spent a lot on the face of it, for Bolton, on players. Now the argument is he's replaced virtually a whole squad since being here and done so by spending in real terms 10M or sommat like that (net spend). Sure he's benefitted from selling a fair few but players who were here before but in most cases he had no choice but to sell players he didn't want to necessarily, so its as much a hindrance as a help.

Its sort of similar with Benitez. The headline figures suggest he's spent a LOT on building a squad, but dig a little deeper and he's had far less resources than say Man Utd and started from a lower base. He's had to sell to buy.

I suppose the question is, whether given what he's spent and the limitations around him, has Benitez done as well as he could?

If you take last season he probably did. But then when you actually look at the squad and some of the players in it, it doesn't look particularly good and with a few dependables ageing/out of form/injured it only highlights the lack of any depth in quality. AND even the lack of a few "solid premiership" players for back up.

Mind Man Utd are not without their troubles and Chelsea are probably laughing all the way to the Premiership title right now!

[blurred]

long may this thread continue - but just a brief note to mark the patient forebearance of Blurred who continues to contribute in a well-argued and reasoned way rarely losing his rag... as a Bolton fan in residence on a rival forum, I know that it is a special skill to remain a regular contributor over the long term and not just lose your rag... or become a camp WUM

Gracias.

and - errr... Benitez is a prick

Not so gracias

[boltonboris]

Isn't Tosic about 18?

[blurred]

Isn't Tosic about 18?

Yes.

If 18 actually equals 22.

Obertan already appears to be ahead of him in the pecking order. Still, another good £8m spent there, Fergie. They don't all turn out like Ronaldo, y'know.

[Verbal]

Isn't Tosic about 18?

Yes.

If 18 actually equals 22.

Oooooooooooooh! OH NO HE DIDNT! Oh YES HE DID! PWNED.

Ahem that's just a bit silly

Anyway....

[boltonboris]

Isn't Tosic about 18?

Yes.

If 18 actually equals 22.

Obertan already appears to be ahead of him in the pecking order. Still, another good £8m spent there, Fergie. They don't all turn out like Ronaldo, y'know.

Ah, thought he was younger... In that case, perhaps he should be having more of an impact on the first 11, especially with Giggs' advancing years and Nani's undoubted sh*tness