Bolton Wanderers Forum The-Wanderer.co.uk

coffeymagic wrote:

jaffka wrote:This is where the bullsh*t is, people cannot go anywhere but still push, but they are not at fault, bollox

If you're in a tunnel and there are thousand behind you you can't very well turn around and start pushing the other way can you?

I've been lifted off my feet before in crowds, there's nothing you can do. I imagine it was horrific for everyone caught up in the 'herd' that day.

Are you saying that you could have just stepped aside?

Perhaps you could 'spiderman' yourself up the wall to safety?

It happens to me all the time, when I am in a queue that I start pushing the poeple in front.

For a crush to happen, someone must have started pushing.

jaffka wrote:

coffeymagic wrote:

jaffka wrote:This is where the bullsh*t is, people cannot go anywhere but still push, but they are not at fault, bollox

If you're in a tunnel and there are thousand behind you you can't very well turn around and start pushing the other way can you?

I've been lifted off my feet before in crowds, there's nothing you can do. I imagine it was horrific for everyone caught up in the 'herd' that day.

Are you saying that you could have just stepped aside?

Perhaps you could 'spiderman' yourself up the wall to safety?

It happens to me all the time, when I am in a queue that I start pushing the poeple in front.

For a crush to happen, someone must have started pushing.

Or, that too many people were directed to the wrong places?

Annoyed Grunt wrote:

jaffka wrote:

coffeymagic wrote:

jaffka wrote:This is where the bullsh*t is, people cannot go anywhere but still push, but they are not at fault, bollox

If you're in a tunnel and there are thousand behind you you can't very well turn around and start pushing the other way can you?

I've been lifted off my feet before in crowds, there's nothing you can do. I imagine it was horrific for everyone caught up in the 'herd' that day.

Are you saying that you could have just stepped aside?

Perhaps you could 'spiderman' yourself up the wall to safety?

It happens to me all the time, when I am in a queue that I start pushing the poeple in front.

For a crush to happen, someone must have started pushing.

Or, that too many people were directed to the wrong places?

So you keep walking or running until you stop dead in your tracks, come on at least feckin think about what your typing

I am thinking about what I'm typing.

I think some people are blinded by their dislike of Liverpool fans.

Should probably lock this before people fall out.

ohjimmyjimmy wrote:Should probably lock this before people fall out.

Agree with that.

ohjimmyjimmy wrote:Should probably lock this before people fall out.

Well, regardless of what's written and whatever Blurred has to say, I find it naive in the extreme to admonish all Liverpool fans of all blame. That said, no-one should ever simply go to watch a game of football and experience this. I too have been swept off my feet in overcrowded pens - few things have scared me more.

Jesus H those pictures are horrible (the second one especially).

Put yourself there for a second.

To think the way fences used to dominate away ends (remember Tranmere's? It used to be about 30ft tall). But there were many grounds where escape would have been impossible.

Like I've tried to say as soon as your feet leave the ground you've no chance.

The only way is down.

feck me.

jaffka wrote:

coffeymagic wrote:

jaffka wrote:This is where the bullsh*t is, people cannot go anywhere but still push, but they are not at fault, bollox

If you're in a tunnel and there are thousand behind you you can't very well turn around and start pushing the other way can you?

I've been lifted off my feet before in crowds, there's nothing you can do. I imagine it was horrific for everyone caught up in the 'herd' that day.

Are you saying that you could have just stepped aside?

Perhaps you could 'spiderman' yourself up the wall to safety?

It happens to me all the time, when I am in a queue that I start pushing the poeple in front.

For a crush to happen, someone must have started pushing.

I fear I'm just going to be banging my head up against a brick wall here, but I've started to read the report and thought I would provide a general response to the "content to remain ignorant" response of a few notable posters on here.

What I believe they are concluding is:

Specifically Liverpool Fans + Hillsborough = disaster

What the report quite categorically, and evidentially (you know, knowing actual real stuff, not what you reckon) states is:

Any large football crowd + Hillsborough in 1989 = Inevitable disaster sooner or later.

(I tried.)

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:

ohjimmyjimmy wrote:Should probably lock this before people fall out.

yup

jaffka wrote:[It happens to me all the time, when I am in a queue that I start pushing the poeple in front.

For a crush to happen, someone must have started pushing.

...So you keep walking or running until you stop dead in your tracks, come on at least feckin think about what your typing[/quote]

Jaffka,

Not being funny here but you are so wrong on this. What happened was not a 'queue' it was a surge of people forced down a tunnel and out into a pen.

I'd love to know what 'queues' you get involved in that you feel the need to start 'pushing'. You've never been in ANYTHING like this.

If in doubt have a look at those people in the pictures again. Queueing up against that fence like nobodies business.

Mods. Don't lock this thread. This needs talking about.

And at the end of the day whether you think the Scousers caused it or not people who've looked at footage and evidence and talked to people and thought about it and probably have a couple of O'Levels to rub together have decided otherwise.

You should be angry that the authorities closed ranks and colluded to decieve the British public about what went on and deliberatley went out of their way to smear the dead and their families.

I've said elsewhere that the families of the dead, after almost a quarter of a centure have finally had a chink of light shown on their case.

I'm ashamed to be British that we live in a country where this goes on.

I take my hat off to the families that kept fighting and fighting.

Well done Scousers.

Bruce Rioja wrote:Well, regardless of what's written and whatever Blurred has to say, I find it naive in the extreme to admonish all Liverpool fans of all blame.

I think it is important to be specific though...

discovering that a couple were drunk or even that a few had no tickets - you could say that is poor (but fairly normal for a big football match) behaviour.. so - in one sense - to blame for not being sober and not buying a ticket - not being sober human beings - but not to blame for the deaths - not a contributory factor to what this is actually all about...

they are trying to understand why all those people died. And as far as I can see - no serious investigation of this whole tragic saga - after interviews with those who were there - CCTV footage and thousands of documents - none of those studies/reports/investigations have attributed any blame for those deaths to the behaviour of the Liverpool fans that day.

pretty much all we have had on here by way of explanation of the idea that somehow fans' behaviour contributed to those deaths is..

1. I hate scousers
2. Liverpool fans have charged gates before and after this event
3. I've seen scousers be wankers at other games
4. what seems to me a totally naive and false view of the way crowds work... crowds take on a life of their own - they do not act as "individuals"

coffeymagic wrote:

jaffka wrote:[It happens to me all the time, when I am in a queue that I start pushing the poeple in front.

For a crush to happen, someone must have started pushing.

...So you keep walking or running until you stop dead in your tracks, come on at least feckin think about what your typing

Jaffka,

Not being funny here but you are so wrong on this. What happened was not a 'queue' it was a surge of people forced down a tunnel and out into a pen.

I'd love to know what 'queues' you get involved in that you feel the need to start 'pushing'. You've never been in ANYTHING like this.

If in doubt have a look at those people in the pictures again. Queueing up against that fence like nobodies business.

Mods. Don't lock this thread. This needs talking about.

And at the end of the day whether you think the Scousers caused it or not people who've looked at footage and evidence and talked to people and thought about it and probably have a couple of O'Levels to rub together have decided otherwise.

You should be angry that the authorities closed ranks and colluded to decieve the British public about what went on and deliberatley went out of their way to smear the dead and their families.

I've said elsewhere that the families of the dead, after almost a quarter of a centure have finally had a chink of light shown on their case.

I'm ashamed to be British that we live in a country where this goes on.

I take my hat off to the families that kept fighting and fighting.

Well done Scousers.[/quote]

The ones on the photographs are the victims, that is not in doubt, the ones who got into the ground to watch their team.

The blame lies with the tossers who came in late (not in the pictures) at the back pushing and forcing. Is it really that difficult to understand?

jaffka wrote:

coffeymagic wrote:

jaffka wrote:[It happens to me all the time, when I am in a queue that I start pushing the poeple in front.

For a crush to happen, someone must have started pushing.

...So you keep walking or running until you stop dead in your tracks, come on at least feckin think about what your typing

Jaffka,

Not being funny here but you are so wrong on this. What happened was not a 'queue' it was a surge of people forced down a tunnel and out into a pen.

I'd love to know what 'queues' you get involved in that you feel the need to start 'pushing'. You've never been in ANYTHING like this.

If in doubt have a look at those people in the pictures again. Queueing up against that fence like nobodies business.

Mods. Don't lock this thread. This needs talking about.

And at the end of the day whether you think the Scousers caused it or not people who've looked at footage and evidence and talked to people and thought about it and probably have a couple of O'Levels to rub together have decided otherwise.

You should be angry that the authorities closed ranks and colluded to decieve the British public about what went on and deliberatley went out of their way to smear the dead and their families.

I've said elsewhere that the families of the dead, after almost a quarter of a centure have finally had a chink of light shown on their case.

I'm ashamed to be British that we live in a country where this goes on.

I take my hat off to the families that kept fighting and fighting.

Well done Scousers.

The ones on the photographs are the victims, that is not in doubt, the ones who got into the ground to watch their team.

The blame lies with the tossers who came in late (not in the pictures) at the back pushing and forcing. Is it really that difficult to understand?[/quote]

Well done Jaffka. You've just pressed my buttons.

I'll say no more on this subject to yourself or read any more of the comments you post.

You sir are an arse and I bid you good day.

Love it when im right.

jaffka wrote:

coffeymagic wrote:

jaffka wrote:[It happens to me all the time, when I am in a queue that I start pushing the poeple in front.

For a crush to happen, someone must have started pushing.

...So you keep walking or running until you stop dead in your tracks, come on at least feckin think about what your typing

Jaffka,

Not being funny here but you are so wrong on this. What happened was not a 'queue' it was a surge of people forced down a tunnel and out into a pen.

I'd love to know what 'queues' you get involved in that you feel the need to start 'pushing'. You've never been in ANYTHING like this.

If in doubt have a look at those people in the pictures again. Queueing up against that fence like nobodies business.

Mods. Don't lock this thread. This needs talking about.

And at the end of the day whether you think the Scousers caused it or not people who've looked at footage and evidence and talked to people and thought about it and probably have a couple of O'Levels to rub together have decided otherwise.

You should be angry that the authorities closed ranks and colluded to decieve the British public about what went on and deliberatley went out of their way to smear the dead and their families.

I've said elsewhere that the families of the dead, after almost a quarter of a centure have finally had a chink of light shown on their case.

I'm ashamed to be British that we live in a country where this goes on.

I take my hat off to the families that kept fighting and fighting.

Well done Scousers.

The ones on the photographs are the victims, that is not in doubt, the ones who got into the ground to watch their team.

The blame lies with the tossers who came in late (not in the pictures) at the back pushing and forcing. Is it really that difficult to understand?[/quote]

You haven't really read anything Blurred wrote have you?

Some interesting reminiscences from a number of Leeds fans at the bottom of this link. It's quite clear that the disaster could have happened at least a couple of other times in the same decade at the same end of the same ground.

http://thehillsboroughdisasterdocumenta ... emi-final/

In one instance the fences were opened to save fans from the crush. In the other the game was delayed. Neither was done in 1989. It's also interesting to note that in 87 and 88 (when Liverpool were one of the sides playing) several blockades were in place to check for valid match tickets and this was felt to have broken up the flow of fans towards the ground. In 89, Duckenfield, the senior police officer in charge on the day, dispensed with this tactic.

Quite telling that he'd only been in the job 21 days, and that the match briefing was a reprint of the '88 one, where potential problems had been identified post-match, but because they were'nt included in the '89 briefing they were exacerbated rather than learnt from in the build up to the disaster in '89.

Good link LGM.