Bolton Wanderers Forum The-Wanderer.co.uk

CrazyHorse wrote:You never used to be this easy to wind up fatshaft.
I guess moving back up to the third world can do that to a man.

This is a highly emotive subject up here, I am one of the majority who will never be back to watch my team if they vote the cheating bastards straight back into the top tier; and to hear someone spout so much ill-informed cliched drivel makes me a little angry

Prufrock wrote:
[2] I didn't pretend to say why the 'everyone' you seem so keen, at every turn, to speak for wants rid. I said why I would.

Come back to this point because I've just seen some stats on the Dons board.

First off, there was a poll of Scottish fans, over 95% of fans from all teams want Rangers out, a staggeringly low figure I think it's fair to say, why it's not over 99% astonishes me, anyway...

From informed sources, Dundee utd's season ticket sales running at just over 1/3 of last years levels, don't have like for like for the Dons, but currently total sales are apparently 300 tickets, approx 5% of last years full total.

Fans are holding back in huge numbers until this is resolved. If Cheats Newco are in the SPL next season, then Scottish football will be finished.

D'you know what, if I was in your position I'd feel the same but that's a pretty risky gamble you're all taking there.
If they call your bluff and vote them into the SPL, Scottish football will be finished but it's every club that will suffer.
Would you really rather see your club fold than see the newco in the SPL?

lovethesmellofnapalm wrote:I admire your righteous indignation Mr Fatshaft.
but really... do you expect any English person to believe, really believe and i don't mean that sort of lip service,for public consumption, patronising sort of "believing", that anything non English can ever be remotely as good as something English?
its in bred into the feckers.

Aye - Brechin City > Lincoln City. Point scored. Irn Bru and clootie dumplings all round.

fatshaft wrote:

Prufrock wrote:
[3] I don't understand where you are going with that up to the last sentence. You may well be right like, but I don't know what you are on about. The last sentence may well be. I never said anyone gave a flying fook about the provincial towns, only that the quality of football in the league as a whole was better. And I'd still rather watch Wigan-Fulham say, that two mid-lower end Spanish teams.

Of course you would, there's inbuilt interest and familiarity that makes watching your own league more attractive and compelling. I'll bet next season you'll watch a ton of televised Championship games, I certainly will, becasue they will now be relevant to how Bolton fare, I've probably watched, erm well absolutely no Championship games ever before now. Vested interest you see.

Prufrock wrote:[1] I bow to your superior knowledge on. Obviously the Scottish TV deal is smaller, but I'd have thought it were still the biggest source of income for clubs? It dwarves gate money here to a ludicrous extent. Were it to be, then I can't see how losing Rangers is anything but bad financially. If attendances do make up a much bigger share then yeah, I can see that.

Most of the money goes to the bigots, no-one else makes a million a season out of it. You get it now?

Prufrock wrote:[2] I didn't pretend to say why the 'everyone' you seem so keen, at every turn, to speak for wants rid. I said why I would.
As for the institutionalised cheating. Sure, everyone looks at that and says 'yeah, we need to punish that'. You'd hope so anyway. I'd personally be more bothered about the inbuilt mechanisms that stop anybody competing with the top clubs (a problem by no means even remotely unique to Scotland, though perhaps most acutely obvious there). Fiddling the books isn't what kept Rangers finishing above ten of the other eleven teams in that league. Celtic seem to have played it by the book, and no-one can get near them. Sure the fanbase and the size of the stadium will always give the bigger clubs an advantage, but the TV deals, the sponsorship just compound it. And it is happening all across top level football. I can't think of one league, aside from maybe the current shambles that is the Italian league which is more competitive now than it was ten years ago. The Premier League may be an exception, but only because ten years it was so uncompetitive (Arsenal or Utd) and now two more billionaires have come on the scene.

Anyway...Scottish football, I wouldn't watch it if you paid me....(JOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOKE )

See, total lack of awareness of anything but your own league. So none of the French, Dutch or GErman league shave improived over the last decade? Have you seen how competitive they have become? Well clearly not.

I said would rather, not would have rather. I have absolutely no emotional attachment to say Villa-Fulham (I'll not use Wigan as I'd always like to see them lose) any more. I'd still rather watch that than say, Espanyol-Real Sociedad. It's better to watch.

Well this is a new low. Being patronised by somebody who fails to see the contradiction in labelling the entirety of two whole masses of heterogeneous individuals 'bigots' . Yes, I do see, thank you for your patience. It was entirely unreasonable to assume that in a league where the break up of Setanta led to forecasts of doom for several clubs, and where I'm told plenty fans of the less glamorous are sick of kick off times being moved for TV that those clubs might actually get some money from the TV deal. Why do they put up with it then?

I didn't think that one through really now did I?! Though, the Dutch, French and Italian leagues kind of back up my point earlier. They have all got more competitive, by getting worse. I'd also argue that whilst the French league has been more competitive recently, it is also on its way to becoming less so than it even was in the Aulas Lyon days.

Your further post I still don't get. You're having a conversation I'm certainly not party to. I haven't pretended to speak for Scottish fans. I've no doubt your numbers on season ticket renewals are bob on. All I have offered in that regard was that, personally, I'd want rid so my team might have a chance of challenging for the league without getting in a mental Lithuanian as chairman. You're telling me about what the fans of Scottish clubs think. Good for them. They are not me.

On that ire though, I'm slightly surprised at how intense it is. Not that I'm surprised that people are annoyed one club have gained an unfair advantage by cheating, that is a given, but that they are so annoyed about this, having, it seems, sat back for years whilst Rangers and Celtic arguably 'unfairly' dominated given their fanbase, what you tell me is the structure of the TV deal, their collective sponsorship deal etc. Were people kicking off and it never got reported down here, is this the straw that breaks the camel's back, or were people genuinely OK with the Old Firm's massive financial advantage? I know you yourself have said Scottish fans are generally pissed off with the Old Firm, and for many reasons, but there never seems to have been anything like the 90-odd per cent rate of dissatisfaction?

That green writing did my eyes no favours i can tell you !

Let's forget what's gone before, we'll agree to disagree, so moving on....

Prufrock wrote:Your further post I still don't get. You're having a conversation I'm certainly not party to. I haven't pretended to speak for Scottish fans. I've no doubt your numbers on season ticket renewals are bob on. All I have offered in that regard was that, personally, I'd want rid so my team might have a chance of challenging for the league without getting in a mental Lithuanian as chairman. You're telling me about what the fans of Scottish clubs think. Good for them. They are not me.

On that ire though, I'm slightly surprised at how intense it is. Not that I'm surprised that people are annoyed one club have gained an unfair advantage by cheating, that is a given, but that they are so annoyed about this, having, it seems, sat back for years whilst Rangers and Celtic arguably 'unfairly' dominated given their fanbase, what you tell me is the structure of the TV deal, their collective sponsorship deal etc. Were people kicking off and it never got reported down here, is this the straw that breaks the camel's back, or were people genuinely OK with the Old Firm's massive financial advantage? I know you yourself have said Scottish fans are generally pissed off with the Old Firm, and for many reasons, but there never seems to have been anything like the 90-odd per cent rate of dissatisfaction?

Basically, what could we do? We all thought the league, refereeing, and TV were wholly in favour of the cheeks, we often jested (much like in England with Man Utd/Arsenal for eg.) that things were always fixed in their favour.

But deep down, no-one - at least no-one with a modicum of sanity - actually believed that either of the Old Firm were actually cheating, but it turns out that is exactly what they were doing. Not only were they cheating, but teams such as Aberdeen and Hearts in particualr have run up massive debt trying to keep up with a team that all the while, despite their already in buillt superiority based on financial clout of having a gate 500% bigger than either of those two, were further cheating to make sure there was to never be a repeat of the 80s, where Rangers became the fourth club in Scotland, and arguably the 5th.

So yes this was the straw, and many fans will not care less if their team now folds, becasue if Cheats Newco are admitted back into the SPL, then the SPL has turned into the football equivalent of WWE, it will be an entertainment only, there will be no actual sport involved.

It's not going to happen though, Mad Vlad has come out today to announce Hearts will be voting no, and both ICT and Motherwell have ststed the decision will be left for their fans to decide, their is only one way that will go as the online polls have shown. Further, the Dons have shown the door to 5 directors this week, and all of this follows a weekend get together in Aberdeen at the Dons Chairman's house to discuss the upcoming vote on Cheats Newco being re-admitted.

Coincidence? Aye, right. Huns are doomed, and all that 90% of Scotland will say, is 'thank feck'.

Mad Vlad speaks....

"The opinion of Heart of Midlothian FC in regards to the current situation of Scottish football is clear and robust.

"The football mafia represented by former owners of Rangers FC and Rupert Murdoch's media are to blame for some of the worst problems to hit Scottish football and must not be allowed back in under any circumstances.

"As regards the club itself, we can only express our deepest condolences to its supporters, who have been lied to for so many years.

"It had to happen sooner or later. Victories were achieved not by sporting merits, but through slander, conspiracies amongst players and their poaching via third parties, unfair pressuring of referees, who in themselves are as valuable to the fabric of football as the football stars themselves.

"All of this brought hollow victories and destroyed football. We can also mention the attempts to eliminate Hearts with the help of the tax petitions, through false accusations and threats to revoke the club license. There is a saying about digging a grave for someone: you get it for yourself …

"Without these people football will become cleaner and stronger. Without Murdoch the whole of society will improve, in particular sport and culture.

"Supporters deserve a new beginning and have to accept the fact that their club has to start from the lower league, keeping order in the SPL and without creating unfair competition with other clubs.

"As regards the pitiful state of Scottish football finances, a lot of the blame should be placed at the doors of Murdoch's media. They pay huge sums to English clubs, whilst in Scotland, where football is better supported per capita than anywhere else in Europe and there are more cable or Sky subscribers per capita than in England, clubs receive peanuts for their broadcasting rights.

"At the very least this is discrimination and protectionism for the English football product, which at the same time stunts the development of the game in Scotland, that is regarded as the cradle of football.

"I feel that it is absolutely realistic to create a company that would bring to Scottish clubs at least the same broadcasting income, and even grow it by 50-100% over the next two to three years. This company should be in the hands of Scottish clubs and work with those who want to earn money the honest way, instead of conducting business the Murdoch way.

"They have lived beyond law and all morals, and should now be declared beyond the pale. A society that allows the destruction of integrity in sport, which is a crucial part of Scottish culture, is destroying itself - and all for the benefit of a media aborigine."

If Rangers get voted out what's likely to happen? Will they be able to start again as AFC Rangers in Division 3?

Harry Genshaw wrote:If Rangers get voted out what's likely to happen? Will they be able to start again as AFC Rangers in Division 3?

They will still have to re-apply (along with Cove Rangers, Pollock, and likely others) for the vacant slot in the SFL. Their issue lies in whether they are ready to do so in time for the season start.

Without seeming to be 'one of those ******G English sticking his nose in' I agree with Fatshaft here a bit. Any club or supporter who won't vote agin the 'Gers is or has sold their souls to the devil, the bankers and paymasters who give us all the finger!

Now seeing we are talking Scotland, why can we the vastest, largest by far populace have the vote on if we want you lot to remain a part of England?

Hoboh wrote: Now seeing we are talking Scotland, why can we the vastest, largest by far populace have the vote on if we want you lot to remain a part of England?

Because Scotland's not part of England, just united with it.

Back to Rangers SPL share transfer.
I think this is not even going to go to a vote, they can't risk the humiliation and so will withdraw the application. Patter will go along the lines, doing honorable thing and apply to join the SFL , ... etc
Heat now about to switch on to SFL clubs.
Bit worried about a deal being done to parachute "the Rangers" into division 1, but really who knows where this is going to go next.

Caro-Kann wrote:

Hoboh wrote: Now seeing we are talking Scotland, why can we the vastest, largest by far populace have the vote on if we want you lot to remain a part of England?

Because Scotland's not part of England, just united with it.

Back to Rangers SPL share transfer.
I think this is not even going to go to a vote, they can't risk the humiliation and so will withdraw the application. Patter will go along the lines, doing honorable thing and apply to join the SFL , ... etc
Heat now about to switch on to SFL clubs.
Bit worried about a deal being done to parachute "the Rangers" into division 1, but really who knows where this is going to go next.

Errrm its the bit glued on the top!! You know bigish bit with loads of rocks and water with few people. Most of the 'northern folk' moved down to Blackpool for the summer.
My history may be a bit ropey but didn't everyone in the Northern province want to be English with a few trouble makers stirring things up till we put them down?
Must have been Alex fishe's relatives.

Rangers should be wound up and never be allowed in any league if rangers plays any part in their name, they should be made to completly get rid of anything to do with the old rangers including club colours.

As I have read more & more about the way Rangers have been "run" what began in my mind as the same as any big corporation simply getting its numbers wrong grew into a model of ineptitude, then low level fraud, then just plain fraud to, by now, a "full scale, eyes wide open, only admit what you can't deny, feck-it let's fold & run away from our debt" disgrace.

Add to this that those involved in a 'rescue' seem to think they simply sidle-up and, write-off their debt, recover their place and still babble-on about wanting to be in the English system.

They & Celtic clearly are the cash-cows of the league up there, but if a new business is to commence it should do so at entry level, pay-off as much debt as possible asap & only let compete at the higher levels once their debts are covered (esp. to the smaller traders). Anyone even remotely involved should be shown the door & never allowed to run a business again let alone a football club.

The way I see it is, the problem was caused by a greedy few, it's not the fans, players or the majority of staffs fault, they shouldn't be punished. Put it this way if our 100 million debt wasn't owed to Eddie we would probably be in the same situation with liquidation. At the end of the day they are one of the biggest names in the UK with huge support from all over the world and the chances of them slipping away into nothing is slim

But they cannot be simply allowed to slope shoulders, look a bit sheepish & get back unscathed.

Indeed, their cheating has earned them success, prize money, access (however consistently they fecked it up) to the massive Chumps League spots ... All of which they had no right to & the Aberdeens, Hearts, Killies etc. had rights for. So, effectively they've stolen from the smaller clubs.

Like the schoolyard bully they want to be let off and resume. That can't be. Their view of, well we have a lot of fans should carry zero weight.

I hope someone's having a real good scour around Parkhead, btw. If only one of the pair are up to fun & games I'll eat Bruce's hat.

So that's Celtic winning the league for the next 50 years then, can't we apply to take Rangers place? I mean, we'd be the 2nd biggest club up there then

as wrote:So that's Celtic winning the league for the next 50 years then, can't we apply to take Rangers place? I mean, we'd be the 2nd biggest club up there then

Might get bigger gates than Wet Spam then

Hoboh wrote:

as wrote:So that's Celtic winning the league for the next 50 years then, can't we apply to take Rangers place? I mean, we'd be the 2nd biggest club up there then

Might get bigger gates than Wet Spam then

Why the feck*-feck would a Bolton fan mention those bubble-blowing Russel Brand wankers???

We'd have had the 3rd highest average attendance in Scottish football for a decade - somebody tell Phil to bend the SFA's ear!

as wrote:

Hoboh wrote:

as wrote:So that's Celtic winning the league for the next 50 years then, can't we apply to take Rangers place? I mean, we'd be the 2nd biggest club up there then

Might get bigger gates than Wet Spam then

Why the feck would a Bolton fan mention those bubble-blowing Russel Brand wankers???

We'd have had the 3rd highest average attendance in Scottish football for a decade - somebody tell Phil to bend the SFA's ear!

Or go & buy Partick Thistle or something. Call it "doing a Bury".