Euro 2012

[Prufrock]

I'm not sure that is necessarily true though. German football retains a tempo similar to the English game at the top level whilst having invested in the grass roots so that they produce technically brilliant players. Spain's best performance was the final where they stepped up the tempo. Barca are at their best when Messi and Iniesta go through the gears. It isn't so much 'style' as it is technique. The best players in the world wouldn't win things smashing it up Hart-Carroll because percentage wise you are playing a risk of giving the ball away far too often. You can win things playing at a high tempo with crosses into the box and technically gifted players. Look at the Rags from the nineties to now. Look at the German model. The problem we have is that our players aren't good enough to keep it when under pressure so we just hoof it up the field.

Italy had a lot of joy with balls over the top for Balotelli, the difference was they controlled when they played them. They kept hold of the ball, made the pitch wide and then played shorter balls, often first time, around the corner, for Balotelli. 5 yard passes isn't the only way to win. Being good at football is.

[Wandering Willy]

I'm not sure that is necessarily true though. German football retains a tempo similar to the English game at the top level whilst having invested in the grass roots so that they produce technically brilliant players. Spain's best performance was the final where they stepped up the tempo. Barca are at their best when Messi and Iniesta go through the gears. It isn't so much 'style' as it is technique. The best players in the world wouldn't win things smashing it up Hart-Carroll because percentage wise you are playing a risk of giving the ball away far too often. You can win things playing at a high tempo with crosses into the box and technically gifted players. Look at the Rags from the nineties to now. Look at the German model. The problem we have is that our players aren't good enough to keep it when under pressure so we just hoof it up the field.

Italy had a lot of joy with balls over the top for Balotelli, the difference was they controlled when they played them. They kept hold of the ball, made the pitch wide and then played shorter balls, often first time, around the corner, for Balotelli. 5 yard passes isn't the only way to win. Being good at football is.

I'd change the sentence in bold to read: " ..... the players we took weren't good enough to keep it under pressure.....".

I'm not convinced we have a systemic problem in English football - we do have problems when managers select 5 duffers from Liverpool and the likes of Milner as our supposed best.

[Lord Kangana]

Either way, a defence of the English system as it stands is an argument built on sand.

[BWFC_Insane]

I'm not sure that is necessarily true though. German football retains a tempo similar to the English game at the top level whilst having invested in the grass roots so that they produce technically brilliant players. Spain's best performance was the final where they stepped up the tempo. Barca are at their best when Messi and Iniesta go through the gears. It isn't so much 'style' as it is technique. The best players in the world wouldn't win things smashing it up Hart-Carroll because percentage wise you are playing a risk of giving the ball away far too often. You can win things playing at a high tempo with crosses into the box and technically gifted players. Look at the Rags from the nineties to now. Look at the German model. The problem we have is that our players aren't good enough to keep it when under pressure so we just hoof it up the field.

Italy had a lot of joy with balls over the top for Balotelli, the difference was they controlled when they played them. They kept hold of the ball, made the pitch wide and then played shorter balls, often first time, around the corner, for Balotelli. 5 yard passes isn't the only way to win. Being good at football is.

Think that's pretty much what I'm saying....better players needed rather than worrying so much about whether we match Spains style or play as you say a 'quicker more English' tempo.

[BWFC_Insane]

Either way, a defence of the English system as it stands is an argument built on sand.

Not defending the 'English system' but I guess really I'd like to know how you would change it, or what you'd change?

[Prufrock]

Either way, a defence of the English system as it stands is an argument built on sand.

Absolutely. It needs stressing though, that to improve, we don't have to introduce a system where everybody falls over all the time and we only ever make 5 yard passes. You might think that is obvious, but it's fecking depressing the size of the opposition to the move to 5 -a-side at U7, 7-a-side at 8s and 9s, 9-a-side potentially up to U13s. Plenty folk want 11 year old lads to play on a full size pitch, with full size nets and a full size ball at 11, because 9-a-side isn't 'proper football'.

[Lord Kangana]

Even Robbie "f*ckin hell, not Robbie Savage" Savage and Martin "waste of a good fart" Samuels have recognised the need to have small sided games at lower age levels, and introduce Futsal etc etc etc ad infinitum. It might be added, on top of that, that United, who are non-too-tardy at producing youth, actually encourage "selfishness" with the ball at a younger age, so that every player gets a feel for the ball and develops their skills.

[BWFC_Insane]

Even Robbie "f*ckin hell, not Robbie Savage" Savage and Martin "waste of a good fart" Samuels have recognised the need to have small sided games at lower age levels, and introduce Futsal etc etc etc ad infinitum. It might be added, on top of that, that United, who are non-too-tardy at producing youth, actually encourage "selfishness" with the ball at a younger age, so that every player gets a feel for the ball and develops their skills.

I think all of that will come through. Personally I think the make a real difference the changes have to be much wider and across society not just football and it's institutions.

The thing is though that ultimately you've got to get the clubs buying into it, and that's the bit nobody has an answer for. In today's game which clubs will be brave enough to be patient with younger players learning the game rather than look for quick fixes, which really we as fans demand.....

[Lord Kangana]

But it hasn't. Thats the whole point, just wishing and hoping it will happen is why our football is so shit. We've been doing it for years. It isn't a miracle of nature that other countries consistently outperform us.

[CrazyHorse]

I think all of that will come through. Personally I think the make a real difference the changes have to be much wider and across society not just football and it's institutions.

So ya reckon we're shite at every tournament because our society is broken? When did this forum become the Daily Mail website's comments section?

[Prufrock]

Even Robbie "f*ckin hell, not Robbie Savage" Savage and Martin "waste of a good fart" Samuels have recognised the need to have small sided games at lower age levels, and introduce Futsal etc etc etc ad infinitum. It might be added, on top of that, that United, who are non-too-tardy at producing youth, actually encourage "selfishness" with the ball at a younger age, so that every player gets a feel for the ball and develops their skills.

Unfortunately though, what Robbie Savage and Martin Samuel think doesn't actually make the blindest bit of difference to anyone anywhere (god, don't anyone tell them that, the poor lambs). The leagues our club is a member of have had a real fight to implement the changes, even at our club, which is quite a progressive 'we aren't necessarily interested in trophies for their own sake, rather we want good footballers at 16,17,18' in the younger age groups, have seen a big split.

At a meeting I was asked why I was for 9-a-side over the traditional 11 at U11s. The biggest argument against I was met with was 'well, when will they learn offside?' That's the culture that runs through our game. You have young kids at their most receptive, and instead of teaching them technique, how to attack, how to defend we want to line them up and teach them when to defend without even touching the ball.

I think it is getting better, but not quickly enough. We need more coaches who go beyond the basic level one. That we haven't got them isn't a criticism of the individual coaches. For the most part they are volunteers with 'proper' jobs as well who can't afford the time or money of the next level. The FA are trying to put on more 'modules' where coaches who want to go beyond level 1 (which is really box ticking and cone laying) but not up to level two. That is a good thing. Burton is a good thing. If we can get more PE teachers doing courses it will be a good thing (when I was at school the teams did a *bit* of training then a match, every one else just played a match).

The other thing is, and I think this is what BWFCi means about 'society', people often write off junior football, and schools football, with the assumption that the players involved will never make it as professionals, so it is unimportant. It's fine for the under 15s to smash it long blood and thunder no more than one touch coz they'll never play for England. The problem is that their kids might well be good enough, and if their younger days are spent with dad screaming 'get rid' and manager screaming 'get rid' then they aren't going to develop properly either.

[Montreal Wanderer]

The other thing is, and I think this is what BWFCi means about 'society', people often write off junior football, and schools football, with the assumption that the players involved will never make it as professionals, so it is unimportant. It's fine for the under 15s to smash it long blood and thunder no more than one touch coz they'll never play for England. The problem is that their kids might well be good enough, and if their younger days are spent with dad screaming 'get rid' and manager screaming 'get rid' then they aren't going to develop properly either.

In the 25 odd years I coached minor hockey only three kids made it to the highest professional level from our area (and I only coached one of them at novice). This doesn't make it unimportant in our society. Playing on a team teaches the kids important lessons in team work and spirit, responsibility, etc. as well as keeping them off the street corners causing trouble. It is true that the parents and coaches yell (in our case) different instructions, but the kids always told me they don't hear the parents when on the ice - just general background noise (and the arenas are very noisy). I would say society here supports minor athletics for a number of reasons, and have no false hopes of the child making it to the professional level.

[boltonboris]

The Bolton leagues have smaller sided games as a rule now. They only get to 11 a side at 14.

There was some study done showing that teams in leagues that had 7 a side then 9 a side got better results at 14 years upwards in regional and national tournaments than teams who'd always played 11 a side.

It's simple really. Less players on a pitch = more touches for each player.

[Prufrock]

Indeed. Think certain leagues also go 9-a-side without offside>9-a-side with offside>11-a-side. Still not 'proper football' for many though, frustratingly. You watch 10 year olds playing on full size pitches with full size nets and size 4 footballs and it is ridiculous. You have to get goal-kicks taken by the one with the biggest kick or you can't get out of your own box never mind half!

[Hoboh]

I think all of that will come through. Personally I think the make a real difference the changes have to be much wider and across society not just football and it's institutions.

So ya reckon we're shite at every tournament because our society is broken? When did this forum become the Daily Mail website's comments section?

When I joined

[CrazyHorse]

Top, top answer.