Champions League Final

[Nozza]

To be honest blurred, most of us have eyes and ears and can formulate our own opionions, and in general Pool fans acted like shits.

No mention of bother around the Milan end..........none whatsoever.

It isn't the first time, and it won't be the last - I'm sure that the reason behind the peaceful home games has a lot to do with your daytripper support (ie Irish and Thai etc) that we always see when we travel over to your place, and perhaps it is the real knobheads who go away.

To criticise Pool fans for making the situation worse is one thing, but to then go on to admit to exacerbating it by turning a blind eye to folk jumping the gates is nothing short of ridiculous.
A terrible analogy would be to call Rooney a fat c*nt (justifiable), whilst chomping on a burger.

Let it drop

Kids, let this be a lesson. Never post when drunk.

[blurred]

I have great respect for you Blurred but if you - who are clearly educated and articulate - cannot see the difference and defend to the hilt the acts of these selfish idiots then no wonder tragedies will continue to occur at football grounds.

I'll attempt one more time to clarify my position on this (and it's hard for those of you who were not there, or have not been put in the position of an enormous fanbase with a small allocation to a huge final to contend with to understand).

I'm not saying that people have some sort of right to bunk in, or get in without paying - obviously you are given tickets for a reason, and I'm one of those yesterday who had his own legitimate ticket having been to sufficient games in Europe this year to guarantee that. If I'd not got in I'd naturally be fuming, but then I gathered there was likely to be all sorts of murder at the game yesterday so started to make my way into the stadium from two hours before kick off. What I'm saying is that at just about every football stadium I've ever visited, both in the Premiership and lower leagues in this country, and across Europe in the last 6 years or so, the chance of getting into the ground with no ticket = zero. The chances of getting in on a forged ticket = incredibly slim. Yesterday these changed to chance with no ticket = not bad, chance with forged ticket = almost guaranteed.

This is where my problem with yesterday lies. Notwithstanding the fact that the entrance procedures were so appalling that it took an hour to move what must've been maybe 600 yards from the metro station to the stadium. Even if you accept that 3,000 extra fans made it into the stadium (which would be towards the top end of the estimates I would say), that would only account for an extra 1,000 fans per hour attempting to gain access, or a whopping 16 or so extra a minute. The policing and security was inadequate, even if there were only the 17,000 getting in.

I think that people who try to force security points/turnstiles and create crushes outside stadia are absolute scum and I disassociate myself from them at every opportunity. Those who were stealing from other Liverpool fans (including someone who nicked one off my mate) are the scum of the earth. We have some absolute c*nts following our club, and it's seemingly getting worse since 2005 (in my opinion).

*****

Had there been a tragedy at the OAKA Stadium yesterday, then yes you would easily be able to look at how many fans inside the ground did not have tickets, and it would be easy to point the finger at these (as certain clubs' fans and sections of the media would be more than happy to do).

What I can guarantee (partly from having read the opinions of people who weren't there yesterday, including people on here) is that nobody would go back and think 'well, hang on, why aren't there 5,000 people without tickets at Anfield (or any other ground) every week?' Just how did these fans get in without a ticket? The demand exists for all Liverpool games already, whether they're Champions League or Premiership or FA Cup, because we're going to be building a 60odd thousand seater stadium in the coming years. Man United have got fans coming out of the rafters, but thousands of supporters do not get in there without a ticket every week.

Did you know there were more police at the stadium in Athens yesterday than were at the FA Cup final the other week, which per head of fan is even more impressive given the fact that Athens had over 20,000 fewer fans than Wembley, yet was there such chaos at this purpose designed football stadium? No.

Are any of you asking these questions? Possibly contemplating the catastrophic failures of the security arrangements that must have happened to have allowed this situation? Putting yourself in the position of turning up to the Reebok at 2.30 on a Saturday afternoon to be told 'sorry lads, stadium's full' while you're in possession of a match ticket purchased weeks before, legitimately from the ticket office, and then being tear-gassed?

Whatever your moral compass on touts, forgeries or trying to sneak under/over fences or blagging your way in, can you just think for a minute how on earth it was possible for thousands of illegitimate fans to get into a stadium with so many police, who had had weeks worth of notice of the sides who would be contesting it, and indeed years worth of notice that they would have to work out an effective method of controlling entry to the stadium?

Or is it easier to sit behind your keyboards and scouse-bash because it's just more convenient?

[Nozza]

Simple question Blurred.

Who is to blame:

Liverpool fans, Greek authorities, UEFA, or a combination?

Nee dodging the question.

[blurred]

Simple question Blurred.

Who is to blame:

Liverpool fans, Greek authorities, UEFA, or a combination?

Nee dodging the question.

A combination, without doubt, although a great deal of it would have been alleviated had the organisation (by which I mean the ticket and police checks, and the stadium itself) been better/more appropriate. The problem of fans rushing the checks etc would have happened wherever it was (assuming we would have had the small allocation problem), but at almost any other European stadium, ones that are specifically football stadia, there's no way that that many people would have got in without legitimate tickets.

[Nozza]

There ya gan. 8 pages of bickering, sorted in one post.

[blurred]

There ya gan. 8 pages of bickering, sorted in one post.

[Tombwfc]

I think that people who try to force security points/turnstiles and create crushes outside stadia are absolute scum and I disassociate myself from them at every opportunity. Those who were stealing from other Liverpool fans (including someone who nicked one off my mate) are the scum of the earth. We have some absolute c*nts following our club, and it's seemingly getting worse since 2005 (in my opinion).

I accept your views on the lack of security checks and all that, and i'm sure it was wank. But, i'm still not following where you draw the line between 'Happy go lucky chancer who got in with no ticket' and 'Thieving c*nts'. If your mates and others like them hadn't tried to get into the ground and cause what they knew would be an unsafe position, then there wouldn't have been fans with genuine tickets stood outside getting gassed. Therefore anyone who even tried to get in to the ground without ticket, played a part in robbing from their own, even if they weren't so direct as to physically take the tickets.

[blurred]

I accept your views on the lack of security checks and all that, and i'm sure it was wank. But, i'm still not following where you draw the line between 'Happy go lucky chancer who got in with no ticket' and 'Thieving c*nts'.

Because the authorities do not know that the scouse lad who presents his ticket has actually bashed in a kid or an arl fella outside the ground or earlier in town to get hold of it, and so will let him in on what is an actual, legitimate ticket. That's cuntish of the highest order on the person who beats up his own fan to take the ticket.

The authorities do know, however, that the person without a ticket, or with a fake ticket, has no right in the stadium and should be f*cked off at the first official checkpoint/turnstile at which he arrives. That's his prerogative and the risk he takes for climbing a fence to miss a police barricade or whatever, because he should then get caught at another checkpoint. He could be arrested for trying to gain entry to the ground without a ticket.

[sluffy]

I have great respect for you Blurred but if you - who are clearly educated and articulate - cannot see the difference and defend to the hilt the acts of these selfish idiots then no wonder tragedies will continue to occur at football grounds.

I'll attempt one more time to clarify my position on this (and it's hard for those of you who were not there, or have not been put in the position of an enormous fanbase with a small allocation to a huge final to contend with to understand).

I'm not saying that people have some sort of right to bunk in, or get in without paying - obviously you are given tickets for a reason, and I'm one of those yesterday who had his own legitimate ticket having been to sufficient games in Europe this year to guarantee that. If I'd not got in I'd naturally be fuming, but then I gathered there was likely to be all sorts of murder at the game yesterday so started to make my way into the stadium from two hours before kick off. What I'm saying is that at just about every football stadium I've ever visited, both in the Premiership and lower leagues in this country, and across Europe in the last 6 years or so, the chance of getting into the ground with no ticket = zero. The chances of getting in on a forged ticket = incredibly slim. Yesterday these changed to chance with no ticket = not bad, chance with forged ticket = almost guaranteed. This is where my problem with yesterday lies.

I think that people who try to force security points/turnstiles and create crushes outside stadia are absolute scum and I disassociate myself from them at every opportunity. Those who were stealing from other Liverpool fans (including someone who nicked one off my mate) are the scum of the earth. We have some absolute c*nts following our club, and it's seemingly getting worse since 2005 (in my opinion).

*****

Had there been a tragedy at the OAKA Stadium yesterday, then yes you would easily be able to look at how many fans inside the ground did not have tickets, and it would be easy to point the finger at these (as certain clubs' fans and sections of the media would be more than happy to do).

What I can guarantee (partly from having read the opinions of people who weren't there yesterday, including people on here) is that nobody would go back and think 'well, hang on, why aren't there 5,000 people without tickets at Anfield (or any other ground) every week?' Just how did these fans get in without a ticket? The demand exists for all Liverpool games already, whether they're Champions League or Premiership or FA Cup, because we're going to be building a 60odd thousand seater stadium in the coming years. Man United have got fans coming out of the rafters, but thousands of supporters do not get in there without a ticket every week.

Did you know there were more police at the stadium in Athens yesterday than were at the FA Cup final the other week, which per head of fan is even more impressive given the fact that Athens had over 20,000 fewer fans than Wembley, yet was there such chaos at this purpose designed football stadium? No.

Are any of you asking these questions? Possibly contemplating the catastrophic failures of the security arrangements that must have happened to have allowed this situation? Putting yourself in the position of turning up to the Reebok at 2.30 on a Saturday afternoon to be told 'sorry lads, stadium's full' while you're in possession of a match ticket purchased weeks before, legitimately from the ticket office, and then being tear-gassed?

Whatever your moral compass on touts, forgeries or trying to sneak under/over fences or blagging your way in, can you just think for a minute how on earth it was possible for thousands of illegitimate fans to get into a stadium with so many police, who had had weeks worth of notice of the sides who would be contesting it, and indeed years worth of notice that they would have to work out an effective method of controlling entry to the stadium?

Or is it easier to sit behind your keyboards and scouse-bash because it's just more convenient?

I'm not a scouse basher - indeed I do try my hardest not to bash anyone.

I will try and simplify my point of view the best I can.

If someone sets out intent to commit a crime and succeeds then is it the fault of the police that they did not stop them from doing it?

The fault lies with those intent to commit a crime - and doing it - surely?

People do not have a God given right to attend a match without a ticket - I'm sure you would agree - so why defend them when they do so illegally and simply blame the authorities for failing to stop them?

I don't know what the legal term is - your far better educated to know than I - but I would say that they are stealing. They have stolen into the ground to watch a match without paying. They know they are doing wrong - you know they are doing wrong - but you say it is the authorities fault for not stopping them!

Yes Liverpool is a very big club, yes they have lots of fans - and a vast amounts of them will not be able to get tickets to see the match legally - but to simply excuse the actions of those 'stealing' into the ground illegally - as saying the authorities should have stopped them is simply a lame excuse and quite frankly I believe you are in 'denial' as to the actual rights and wrongs of the Liverpool fans.

I would say this to any fan of any club - so I am not being selective over Liverpool.

You have recently posted an article above - about 'The Badge of Honour' some Liverpool fans endeavour to achieve by 'stealing' into games - and you agree that the article is true - yet you blame the authorities for allowing it to happen and excuse the perpetrators from blame!

I'm not saying you personally could have done much - if anything to prevent what went on, on the night - but I think you are very wrong in trying to excuse the fans who 'stole' into the ground by blaming the authorities in failing to prevent it from happening.

I wonder if you are actually being serious about this issue at all - surely all this just a great big wind up on your part?

[blurred]

You have recently posted an article above - about 'The Badge of Honour' some Liverpool fans endeavour to achieve by 'stealing' into games - and you agree that the article is true - yet you blame the authorities for allowing it to happen and excuse the perpetrators from blame!

Nope, I don't excuse them from blame. I think I read somewhere earlier today there were 120 or so arrests for people who were attempting to gain access to the stadium without a ticket. I'll give the police and the stewards a well done on that. Those fans deserved to be arrested, and deserve whatever punishment is meted out to them (not least the punishment of missing the match while being sat in clink).

I'll support any fan who is wrongly arrested, or sympathise with those who had genuine tickets and were locked out, but I also absolutely support the actions of the police in arresting people who were breaking the law, and at no point have I said that I don't. I've said throughout this thread that people without tickets should be f*cked off by stewards/police at the turnstiles. They don't belong in the ground.

[sluffy]

You have recently posted an article above - about 'The Badge of Honour' some Liverpool fans endeavour to achieve by 'stealing' into games - and you agree that the article is true - yet you blame the authorities for allowing it to happen and excuse the perpetrators from blame!

Nope, I don't excuse them from blame. I think I read somewhere earlier today there were 120 or so arrests for people who were attempting to gain access to the stadium without a ticket. I'll give the police and the stewards a well done on that. Those fans deserved to be arrested, and deserve whatever punishment is meted out to them (not least the punishment of missing the match while being sat in clink).

I'll support any fan who is wrongly arrested, or sympathise with those who had genuine tickets and were locked out, but I also absolutely support the actions of the police in arresting people who were breaking the law, and at no point have I said that I don't. I've said throughout this thread that people without tickets should be f*cked off by stewards/police at the turnstiles. They don't belong in the ground.

Thanks Blurred for your reply - just to make it clearer for me - I'm sorry if I do not fully understand you - but you are saying above - if I understand you correctly that -

120 people were arrested for trying to get into the game without a ticket - and that such fans as these deserved to be arrested - "they don't belong in the ground" - but yet earlier you were saying this -

There will be those who bought tickets and believed them to be genuine, which turn out to be forgeries. There will be those who bought cheap forgeries knowing full well their provenance but willing to chance it. There will be those who tried to chance their arm of sneaking in with no ticket to see if they could get through unchecked. I would condemn none of these aforementioned categories of people, because they are just trying to see their team in one of the biggest games of their lives, and there's no malice in their actions.

Surely the two statements are contradictory?

Either "they don't belong in the ground" or you "would not condemn" these said same people who (do not belong there!) and are simply in your own words are attempting to get into the ground - "trying to see their team"

Which do mean - you condemn them by saying 'they don't belong at the ground' - and at the same time you say you don't condemn them for trying to 'steal' into the ground to 'see their team'?

[boltonboris]

I was watching the news last night in which a pool fan was interviewed, he admitted to shunting through a fence, sneaking through a checkpoint, then finally scaling a wall. Whe asked if he felt guilty his response was "no, not at all, It wasn't my fault, it was UEFA's" Sums it all up for me, scum of the earth

[blurred]

Surely the two statements are contradictory?

Either "they don't belong in the ground" or you "would not condemn" these said same people who (do not belong there!) and are simply in your own words are attempting to get into the ground - "trying to see their team"

Which do mean - you condemn them by saying 'they don't belong at the ground' - and at the same time you say you don't condemn them for trying to 'steal' into the ground to 'see their team'?

I absolutely don't condemn the people who bought tickets in good faith thinking they were genuine that turned out to be fake. It serves them right for being greedy, perhaps, but that's the nature of the game.

I'd not condemn the man who tries with a forgery knowing full well that it is a fake. He has spent £X knowing that his chances of getting anywhere near the ground at any normal stadium is very, very small. If someone said to you 'here y'are, £20 for a shot at getting in to a Champions League Final if you're lucky' then you make that personal choice of whether or not to give it a shot, risking being turned away or getting arrested.

120 or so people made that chance, and got arrested for it. I'd've been all for another 1,000 people getting arrested/knocked back by the stewards. If you tried to get into the Reebok on a fake ticket you know that probably 99 times in 100 you'd get knocked back at the gate, but I wouldn't say you were a bad fan for trying to get in to the biggest game of your life and taking a risk. If you got arrested for it, well then you deserve that and know the risk.

The problem yesterday was that people were not just getting in on fake tickets, but getting in with no tickets at all. I'm going to try and scan some stuff in at work now to show how truly ridiculous the situation was on Wednesday.

[TANGODANCER]

So, to sum up then: AC Milan 2-Liverpool 0. About says it all?

[sluffy]

Surely the two statements are contradictory?

Either "they don't belong in the ground" or you "would not condemn" these said same people who (do not belong there!) and are simply in your own words are attempting to get into the ground - "trying to see their team"

Which do mean - you condemn them by saying 'they don't belong at the ground' - and at the same time you say you don't condemn them for trying to 'steal' into the ground to 'see their team'?

I absolutely don't condemn the people who bought tickets in good faith thinking they were genuine that turned out to be fake. It serves them right for being greedy, perhaps, but that's the nature of the game.

I'd not condemn the man who tries with a forgery knowing full well that it is a fake. He has spent £X knowing that his chances of getting anywhere near the ground at any normal stadium is very, very small. If someone said to you 'here y'are, £20 for a shot at getting in to a Champions League Final if you're lucky' then you make that personal choice of whether or not to give it a shot, risking being turned away or getting arrested.

120 or so people made that chance, and got arrested for it. I'd've been all for another 1,000 people getting arrested/knocked back by the stewards. If you tried to get into the Reebok on a fake ticket you know that probably 99 times in 100 you'd get knocked back at the gate, but I wouldn't say you were a bad fan for trying to get in to the biggest game of your life and taking a risk. If you got arrested for it, well then you deserve that and know the risk.

The problem yesterday was that people were not just getting in on fake tickets, but getting in with no tickets at all. I'm going to try and scan some stuff in at work now to show how truly ridiculous the situation was on Wednesday.

I think I understand what you are saying - but I'm still confused!

You seem to be saying that you don't blame anyone without a genuine ticket from trying to get into the ground - but - that once they are in that they don't belong there.

Isn't that like saying you don't blame anyone going 'armed' to commit a crime - but once they commit the crime then they are in the wrong?

If so - in English law at least - isn't going armed to commit a crime (say knowingly taking a forged ticket to try to gain entry to a match) a crime in itself?

[sluffy]

So, to sum up then: AC Milan 2-Liverpool 0. About says it all?

I think you must have left before the final whistle!

[blurred]

I think I understand what you are saying - but I'm still confused!

You seem to be saying that you don't blame anyone without a genuine ticket from trying to get into the ground - but - that once they are in that they don't belong there.

Isn't that like saying you don't blame anyone going 'armed' to commit a crime - but once they commit the crime then they are in the wrong?

If so - in English law at least - isn't going armed to commit a crime (say knowingly taking a forged ticket to try to gain entry to a match) a crime in itself?

Indeed it is a crime, and that is why people were arrested attempting to gain entry without genuine tickets, which I fully support. I don't blame anyone who takes that chance, because the systems are and should be in place to prevent it - they know that trying to get into the ground with a fake ticket is a criminal offence, and if they get arrested they are fully aware that that was a likely consequence of their actions.

In the same way (and perhaps to try and give you an example to aid your understanding of my position on the matter) I don't mind someone trying to bunk onto a train without paying - that's their decision and up to them, but I won't listen to their moans when the ticket inspector comes round and catches them and charges them full fare or any appropriate penalty instead of a cheaper ticket they could have bought at the station. You pays your money (or not), you takes your choice. Not everyone will bunk on a train, not everyone will try a fake ticket at the ground.

[Zulus Thousand of em]

Would you have listened to the moans if, God forbid, another 96 people got crushed to death because 1,000 fans without tickets attempted to blag it?

That's what does not stand up for me, I'm afraid. And that's taking into account UEFA and Greek incompetence, of which much was in evidence.

Scousers think they march to a different drum and normal rules don't apply to them, that's the bottom line.

[CrazyHorse]

In the same way (and perhaps to try and give you an example to aid your understanding of my position on the matter) I don't mind someone trying to bunk onto a train without paying - that's their decision and up to them, but I won't listen to their moans when the ticket inspector comes round and catches them and charges them full fare or any appropriate penalty instead of a cheaper ticket they could have bought at the station. You pays your money (or not), you takes your choice. Not everyone will bunk on a train, not everyone will try a fake ticket at the ground.

How about if said train derails because it is so overcrowded there is a weight distribution problem on a corner.
Would you then blame the train operator, the carriage designer, the ticket officer, the government and the British Transport Police?

[chris]

Blurred: What is the difference between a fan knowingly using a fake ticket to get in, and breaking into the UEFA offices to get a genuine one. I can't see any difference - both are effectively stealing money from UEFA - but would you do the latter?