Liverpool Worst Fans in Europe

[Soldier_Of_The_White_Army]

I have a theory (as pxss weak as it is) and that's that the Greek organisers panicked when they heard of the airport strike that kept thousands of Milan supporters stranded. They flapped worrying that there would be huge gaps in the crowd at a major final in their country, and slacked off checking tickets hoping to fill the stadium. They didn't care what colour shirt the person had on, as long as the stadium was full.

Like I say, weak!

[Batman]

Very

[walkingdownthemannyroad]

If I recall a previous thread, the guy went (or so he said).

Scousers win arguments through belligerence rather than using their wits.

When did he win the argument??????????????

Like I said he puts up a passionate defense,but there have been a few sc**se on radio five today,(who actually went,) admitting their own fans were out of order.

[finlayson]

I blame Boris Johnson and Juventus.

[walkingdownthemannyroad]

I blame Boris Johnson and Juventus.

Never to keen to support a t*ry,but Boris got it spot on.

[blurred]

"Blurred", puts up a passionate and spirited defense of his own fans, but has omited to tell us all one thing.....................

Was he there????

I suspect not,because then he could have told us exactly what happened that night,how come thousands of genuine ticket holders could not get in,when the ground was all ready full of sc**ser,(not Milan.........strange that.)

If I recall a previous thread, the guy went (or so he said).

'The guy' did indeed go to Athens, with a bona fide ticket. I paid £43 for the privelege of the worst thing I have ever experienced at a football stadium, and that includes having coins, bottles, etc rained down upon us at Roma in 2001 and then being baton charged by the Italian police.

If you want to read some of my views on the matter, WDTMR, then find the 10 page or so thread on the European Cup Final. That will tell you how so many people managed to get in to the stadium. My opinion is not one borne out of blind loyalty - check the other thread and you'll find that I have called elements of our support out there 'scum' among other things for some of what went on in Athens.

I find it strange, however, that you're able to deride my position by saying that I didn't go, whereas you seem to imply that you're more well versed of the facts even though it appears you have little more than a passing interest in a quick spot of scouse-bashing. Even if I hadn't gone, wouldn't I be exposed to more first-hand evidence and accounts from my friends/colleagues/fellow posters on reds sites?

Anyway, this is most tiresome. I'll not bother in future - independent thought and questioning what you're fed is obviously expecting a little too much from some on here. I'll leave you to your little cosy clichés and narrow-minded views.

[finlayson]

A mate of mine was a steward at Ewood and he said the worst fans they had were Liverpool.
Trying to get 2 through on one ticket, nicking from the concessions, racial abuse of catering staff, damage to toilets etc.

[Bruce Rioja]

"Blurred", puts up a passionate and spirited defense of his own fans, but has omited to tell us all one thing.....................

Was he there????

I suspect not,because then he could have told us exactly what happened that night,how come thousands of genuine ticket holders could not get in,when the ground was all ready full of sc**ser,(not Milan.........strange that.)

If I recall a previous thread, the guy went (or so he said).

'The guy' did indeed go to Athens, with a bona fide ticket. I paid £43 for the privelege of the worst thing I have ever experienced at a football stadium, and that includes having coins, bottles, etc rained down upon us at Roma in 2001 and then being baton charged by the Italian police.

If you want to read some of my views on the matter, WDTMR, then find the 10 page or so thread on the European Cup Final. That will tell you how so many people managed to get in to the stadium. My opinion is not one borne out of blind loyalty - check the other thread and you'll find that I have called elements of our support out there 'scum' among other things for some of what went on in Athens.

I find it strange, however, that you're able to deride my position by saying that I didn't go, whereas you seem to imply that you're more well versed of the facts even though it appears you have little more than a passing interest in a quick spot of scouse-bashing. Even if I hadn't gone, wouldn't I be exposed to more first-hand evidence and accounts from my friends/colleagues/fellow posters on reds sites?

Anyway, this is most tiresome. I'll not bother in future - independent thought and questioning what you're fed is obviously expecting a little too much from some on here. I'll leave you to your little cosy clichés and narrow-minded views.

Blurred, did you, or did you not rush two ticketless fans through the turnstiles with you? At what point did you turn to your friends and say "Hey, it's one ticket per entry, guys, remember Hillsborough?"
How dare you blame the authorities. You see, if 17,000 (or whatever) tickets were sold to each club, then they'd geared up to deal with that many plus a number of chancers. You saying that they'd under-staffed for the Liverpool contingent just shows how many shitbags follow Liverpool. Or are you a club that dwarfs Milan?

[communistworkethic]

Now the little shithouse has turned round 180 degrees and is leaking the propaganda so that UEFA can absolve themselves of any portion of the blame for Athens.

The only thing UEFA screwed up on is not assuming the worst when Liverpool made the final. They should have had Navy Seals taking your tickets and CIA agents monitoring the crowd. But you would have thought that was unfair, right? If UEFA somehow screwed up the ticket security features, or security in general, why is all the noise coming from Liverpool and not Milan? Are Liverpool fans more unethical, or just bigger whiners?

You'd think they would have gotten the point after an indefinite European ban, but it looks like it didn't take. Time for another one?

Yep, get the most corrupt organisation on the planet checking the tickets.

Great idea!

The labour party??

[blurred]

Blurred, did you, or did you not rush two ticketless fans through the turnstiles with you? At what point did you turn to your friends and say "Hey, it's one ticket per entry, guys, remember Hillsborough?"
How dare you blame the authorities. You see, if 17,000 (or whatever) tickets were sold to each club, then they'd geared up to deal with that many plus a number of chancers. You saying that they'd under-staffed for the Liverpool contingent just shows how many shitbags follow Liverpool. Or are you a club that dwarfs Milan?

I 'rushed' no people through the turnstiles - I and one of my friends with whom I was entering the stadium were aware of two people behind me who were ticketless and I did nothing to alert the authorities to them. I presented my ticket for inspection where appropriate (I think it was checked twice out of six 'checks'), and they managed to waltz past all the ticket checks unmolested behind us - not that I think it would have done much good had we tried to alert the authorities to them, but yes, I was complicit in the entry of at least 2 people to the OAKA stadium without tickets if you wish to phrase it that way.

At what point have I pointed out that they were understaffed, Mr Rioja? In the Champions League Final thread I went to pains to point out that the police were in Athens in greater number than they were at the FA Cup Final, which means that per-head of supporter (85k + tickets at Wembley as opposed to 65k + tickets in Athens) there were appreciably enough staff there to deal with that number of fans. How many people managed to get in to Wembley without a ticket? Or with a duplicate or fake ticket? I'd imagine that answer to be pathetically small, because there were competent authorities, checks and infrastructure to deal with a crowd of football supporters.

And in terms of support and travelling numbers, yes, Liverpool absolutely and easily dwarf Milan, as we do just about every other continental European team. The Italians just do not travel in European football, and to be honest attendance even in domestic footie in Italy is comparatively pathetic. Milan returned tickets to both Istanbul and Athens finals because they could not sell them.

The reason I 'dare' blame the authorities (in part, not in entirety, as I have consistently said that a portion of Liverpool fans are to blame for some shameful scenes) is because at any ground in this country, at any professional level, it is impossible to get in without a f*cking ticket. I would and do have no sympathy with people who would have come back from Athens saying that they couldn't bunk in, or who were refused entry with a forged ticket - that's how the system is supposed to work.

My point is this - various people that I know got in to the OAKA stadium with the below three pieces of paper - one is a genuine ticket bought through the club, one is a fans' information leaflet, and one is a boarding card from that mornings flight. Can you tell which one it is?







You can? Well, then, you are obviously too competent to be a steward in Athens.

Can I ask you (or anyone on the board) to answer these questions honestly:

How would you imagine that you could attempt to get in to the Reebok without a piece of paper that looked anything like a ticket?
Would you fancy your chances at getting in with a colour photocopy of a ticket that lacked some official form of identity (whether it's a barcode/embossed silver hologram - I forget which is your weapon of choice at Bolton)?
Would you say that such a thing is in any way possible?
Would you say that it was possible for 500, or even more people, to do this for a Premiership game?

And, if you were to change the Reebok in the above example for Anfield, Fratton Park, Portman Road, Valley Parade, Gigg Lane or even Spotland would the answer be substantively any different?

[communistworkethic]

Now I wasn't there so perhaps someone could answer me these questions...

How many tickets did milan get?
How many Rossonera travelled to athens?
How many of them travelled without tickets?
How many italians bought or sold tickets as/from touts?
How many tried to get in to the ground without tickets and/or with fakes/bus tickets etc?
How many of them stole tickets from there fellow fans?
How many of them have complained about the organisation?

Just wondering like, you know, to get a balanced picture.

[blurred]

Now I wasn't there so perhaps someone could answer me these questions...

How many tickets did milan get?
How many Rossonera travelled to athens?
How many of them travelled without tickets?
How many italians bought or sold tickets as/from touts?
How many tried to get in to the ground without tickets and/or with fakes/bus tickets etc?
How many of them stole tickets from there fellow fans?
How many of them have complained about the organisation?

Just wondering like, you know, to get a balanced picture.

1 - The same amount as Liverpool, give or take - both sides got a fraction under 17,000 allocated.
2 - My personal estimate would be at somewhere between 20 and 25,000.
3 - Going on the above estimate, a few thousand.
4 - Impossible to tell, although in the 'neutral' sections in the centres of the main stands (ie not behind the goals) the numbers of reds and rossonera were mixed, so I would put the estimates of what I saw at 'hundreds'. There were Milan fans celebrating in where I was stood in the second half, which was still in the area of Liverpool's allocation.
5 - I do not have a clue, although it seemed to me that there were more than the allocated number in their end, from what I and others could see, although there was by no means the same crowding that occurred in our end.
6 - I do not have a clue - the thefts that were occurring in the city, however, were being perpetrated by Liverpool fans, Milan fans and locals alike.
7 - I do not know - I do know of some fans who entered around the Milan end where bottlenecks and organisational chaos were as they were that I experienced. As for the wider organisation, Milan would have less need to complain given that they were allocated the metro to return to the airport, and had the use of the terminal, whereas the Liverpool fans had to wait hours to be bussed, and had the use of a tent in a car-park. This is something else that I've not touched on here, as I felt it would detract from the point that is of more interest to most people, ie the policing and stewarding and organisational side of matches abroad. Also, may I ask you to bear in mind the obvious point, which is that you are English and are subject to an English media. May I also point out the other obvious point, namely that 'they won'. Istanbul was largely a shambles, and glossed over mostly on the fact that we emerged victorious. Concerns were raised and points were made, but I imagine these were largely lost on most peoples' conciousness because of the celebrations.

[communistworkethic]

of course !! the italians were just as bad, it's just that because they won they chose not to mention it, all those who had their tickets nicked, or didn't get in because their ticketless mates got in, couldn't give a stuff about missing the game becase they won.

No all the issues were down to the victimisation of the Liverpool fans, oh I see now.


Does it ever cross your mind that this "we're not to blame, they picked on us, we woz robbed" repeated ad infinitum just adds to the dislike of Liverpool and its fans? That if you've been involved in incidents like this once, then ok people can accept you're innocent. Twice then maybe you're unlucky. But when it's 3 or 4 times then people rightly begin to stop and say, "it's not coincidence any more" especially when you all harp on about Hillsboro and how it's a tragedy and you were the victims of the police but you think nothing yourselves of acting in such a way to create situations that could replicate the disaster. No, of course not, it's easier to be a victim isn't it? Maybe if you weren't such hypocrites you'd have some credibillity and warrant just a touch of sympathy.

UEFA collate a dosier over 4 years, not that one game, not 4 weeks and you all blame them. Maybe they have some fault in Athens but what about the rest of the last 4 years. Liverpool fans are saying this report is jsut to gloss over UEFA's mistakes in Athens. What? They started compiling 4 years ago just in case they messed up in 2007?? Conspiracy theory up there with 9/11 that one.

Having the Kop sing that crappy song doesn't nake you good fans, despite what the sycophancy of the BBC's commentators might suggest. It's time Liverpool fans stopped making excuses and looked long and hard at themselves and got their own house in order before pointing the finger elsewhere.

[blurred]

What is it with people and straw-man tactics on here?

I'm not claiming that the dossier was collated or created with the express purpose of concealing mistakes in the future should they happen - I claimed that it was a PR move from UEFA to leak this to Reuters/others at this time because it serves their purpose, and that they're being hypocritical feck* in the process given all that's been said about us in the past (not just in the last few years, but also in the days leading up to the final). Why bother leaking this info if none of the events are or were worthy of a sanction at the time, and if none of the events in Athens are worthy of such actions? Because it serves their purpose of hiding their own dramatic short-comings in this and other instances. Why take the unprecedented (and baffling) step to brandish a set of supporters 'the worst in Europe', when previously we've been lauded for our good behaviour?

Come on, Commie - I know you're an argumentative feck* but I also know there's some brains in there in amongst all the anti-scouse bile and bravado - you must be bright enough to see this for the somewhat cynical and ham-fisted hatchet job that it is? Or do you disagree with every word I've said?

Yes, there are those of our support who have to look at their own actions - and I've condemned them and will continue to do so.

There were so many things wrong with the final, from our side, from UEFA's side, from the Greek authorities' side. Why should we get our house in order at any different pace to UEFA? If Liverpool fans (or any fans) are exploiting weaknesses in the system, which is easier (and more likely) to happen - for the club to stop people exploiting them, or for simple, straightforward and proper procedures to be put in place to not allow them to do this?

Unfortunately it's very difficult to stop robbing c*nts from getting on planes and going wherever we go in Europe, or to stop pissed-up nobheads abusing locals or police - it happens in a minority in every side who travel across Europe, and national teams as well. Oftentimes it's nothing to do with the football itself, but gets blanketed along with those who have gone for nothing more than a few beers and a game of footie (which with all teams is usually a vast, vast majority).

[H. Pedersen]

Blurred, it seems your message to UEFA is (to quote Animal House) "You ****ed up, you trusted us." The obvious solution here is for UEFA to add extra security measures for any game involving Liverpool, and to charge Liverpool fans more accordingly. Would that work for you?

[blurred]

Blurred, it seems your message to UEFA is (to quote Animal House) "You ****ed up, you trusted us." The obvious solution here is for UEFA to add extra security measures for any game involving Liverpool, and to charge Liverpool fans more accordingly. Would that work for you?

I would be happy with UEFA having something that bordered on adequate measures for their games. Something like, oh I don't know, turnstiles perhaps. Would that be too much to ask for at a football game? I mean, they've only been in use in football stadia just about everwhere for, what, 100 years?

If they are going to strangle the supply of tickets for the competing teams by siphoning off large amounts of tickets for their f*cking 'UEFA family' then they have to be aware they are going to create problems over desperate fans trying to get in, or paying daft money, or trying fakes.

Oh, and holding matches at stadia that aren't fit to host football matches is a mistake UEFA have made before. I pray they don't make it again.

[finlayson]

Liverpool fans don't seem to be able to accept that they were monitored for a long period and have been caught out. If Liverpool fans behaved themselves for the last 4 years UEFA wouldn't have a stick to beat them with.

Candle light vigil and multi-faith ceremony at the cathedral tonight to pray for the end of this terrible injustice, and mourn any chicken remains found over the past week.

[communistworkethic]

I'll pick these two points up...

Come on, Commie - I know you're an argumentative feck but I also know there's some brains in there in amongst all the anti-scouse bile and bravado - you must be bright enough to see this for the somewhat cynical and ham-fisted hatchet job that it is? Or do you disagree with every word I've said?

First off I asked for some facts to provide balance, something you weren't capable of and proved so with your response to my initial question, instead you gave opinion. I started by asking to see both sides, that wasn't argument was it? You gave a biased viewed, which I questioned quite validly.

Your attempts to suggest that not to see beyond the fascia of events would make me a bit thick is laughable. It seems that this is exactly what Liverpool fans are failing to do themselves about their own activities, and for the purposes of this issue I am going to lump you all together, especially as the likes of you who don't fall in to the scally category have aided and abetted in creating dangerous situations in Athens. The fact you didn't stop and think, "this could be another hillsboro", is the biggest indictment of your actions I can imagine. You didn't act in a responsible manner, therefore adding to an already poor situation. Did you stop and think that by helping your mates in without tickets fans who'd travelled 1500 miles with tickets wouldn't get in? You bring shame on the name of the club and you are not one of the scallies you suggest are this minority that caused a few issues, it instead being at the feet of UEFA.

UEFA's file may have a bunch of incidents that in themselves are not too serious but they add up. No other club has a record that is as bad and files were compiled on each. In football, you can get booked or sent off for a series of inocuous challenges each of which don't warrant action but when added together show a pattern, I think it's a worthwhile analogy to consider while you're pleading "conspiracy".

I'm not anti-scouse, I am part scouse, I'm anti-self-pitying-failing-to-have-any-introspection-Liverpool fans.

Unfortunately it's very difficult to stop robbing c*nts from getting on planes and going wherever we go in Europe, or to stop pissed-up nobheads abusing locals or police - it happens in a minority in every side who travel across Europe, and national teams as well. Oftentimes it's nothing to do with the football itself, but gets blanketed along with those who have gone for nothing more than a few beers and a game of footie (which with all teams is usually a vast, vast majority).

It's a minority which cause problems? Given that the estimates are that twice as many Liverpool fans travelled as had tickets I can't help but think that doesn't stand up in the Athens scenario. I'd also question it just generally, going back to the previous point, you apparently don't fall in to the "minority" yet you helped people in with no tickets. You are as guilty, if not more guilty than the one who gets pissed and abuses a copper, of creating a dangerous situation in the ground.

Has it not occured to you that had only those with tickets (fake or real) turned up at the ground, then there would not have been as many problems? Reports vary between 1,000 and 5,000 Liverpudlians at the ground who didn't get in for one reason or another. Had those chancers, who you helped, not turned up then perhaps it wouldn't have seemed so shambolic.

It's time for you to stop blaming everyone else. You, and that's you personally and Liverpool fans generally, have to stop pointing the finger. Some contrition is more than over due. If the supposedly educated, intelligent Liverpool fans can't act in a decent manner why should the scallies, of whom we don't expect that much anyway?

[TANGODANCER]

[quote="communistworkethic"] oes it ever cross your mind that this "we're not to blame, they picked on us, we woz robbed" repeated ad infinitum just adds to the dislike of Liverpool and its fans? That if you've been involved in incidents like this once, then ok people can accept you're innocent. Twice then maybe you're unlucky. But when it's 3 or 4 times then people rightly begin to stop and say, "it's not coincidence any more" especially when you all harp on about Hillsboro and how it's a tragedy and you were the victims of the police but you think nothing yourselves of acting in such a way to create situations that could replicate the disaster. No, of course not, it's easier to be a victim isn't it? Maybe if you weren't such hypocrites you'd have some credibillity and warrant just a touch of sympathy.

In the words of Auric Goldfinger: "Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, three times is enemy action!"

[blurred]

First off I asked for some facts to provide balance, something you weren't capable of and proved so with your response to my initial question, instead you gave opinion. I started by asking to see both sides, that wasn't argument was it? You gave a biased viewed, which I questioned quite validly.

I've provided fact and opinion on the questions that you asked - educated opinion, mind, given that I was there and saw the events unfold with my own eyes, which is more than anyone else on these boards (bar that other Liverpool fan who posted in the other thread). There were Milan fans in the Liverpool end, there were mixed bunches of supporters in the 'neutral' areas - whether these were balloted tickets, tickets for locals or UEFA corporates that had been sold on I couldn't tell you, but there were scores or indeed hundreds of fans of each club in these areas.

Your attempts to suggest that not to see beyond the fascia of events would make me a bit thick is laughable. It seems that this is exactly what Liverpool fans are failing to do themselves about their own activities, and for the purposes of this issue I am going to lump you all together, especially as the likes of you who don't fall in to the scally category have aided and abetted in creating dangerous situations in Athens.

This is not what I am implying, or even talking about - I was asking whether you thought it was mere coincidence that Mr Gaillard/UEFA decided to leak this dossier 3 days before it came out and label us as 'the worst fans in Europe' when they had some covering to do. It was a handy PR trick from UEFA, who have a vested interest in creating a press storm about Liverpool fans being 'the worst', because it helps to hide their own shortcomings.

UEFA's file may have a bunch of incidents that in themselves are not too serious but they add up. No other club has a record that is as bad and files were compiled on each. In football, you can get booked or sent off for a series of inocuous challenges each of which don't warrant action but when added together show a pattern, I think it's a worthwhile analogy to consider while you're pleading "conspiracy".

The 'conspiracy' I'm pleading is that UEFA are being two-faced, and the timing of this leak, not the contents of the dossier itself. If, however, as is suspected, that the events contained within are of no greater a nature than robbing a few CL flags after the game (which disappeared from all parts of the stadium, including Milan's), or some other minor public order offences, then it seems laughable to label us as 'the worst fans in Europe', when we've been nothing but lauded publicly over the last 5 years or more.

It's a minority which cause problems? Given that the estimates are that twice as many Liverpool fans travelled as had tickets I can't help but think that doesn't stand up in the Athens scenario.

Yes. There were, at commonly accepted estimates, up to 40,000 Liverpool fans in Athens. Did 20,000 of them create problems? No. Therefore I'd put to you that it is comfortably in the minority of Liverpool fans that cause problems. Of the 8,000 or so who went to Barcelona, how many caused problems? 4,000? No. If one of the incidents at which UEFA are so upset is 100 flags going missing, even if these were each taken by an individual, that's still an overwhelmingly huge minority of Liverpool fans causing problems. I'd imagine that the other 'incidents' are of a similar, small-scale nature.

Has it not occured to you that had only those with tickets (fake or real) turned up at the ground, then there would not have been as many problems? Reports vary between 1,000 and 5,000 Liverpudlians at the ground who didn't get in for one reason or another. Had those chancers, who you helped, not turned up then perhaps it wouldn't have seemed so shambolic.

Yes, of course it has. I can't put a number to those who got in without tickets (real or fake), but I'd say it was easily in the hundreds.

It's time for you to stop blaming everyone else. You, and that's you personally and Liverpool fans generally, have to stop pointing the finger. Some contrition is more than over due. If the supposedly educated, intelligent Liverpool fans can't act in a decent manner why should the scallies, of whom we don't expect that much anyway?

If you'd care to visit any of the Liverpool fora, you will see that there are countless threads on there about behaviour at games, people who shamed the club, how to combat/self-police games next season and all manner of things. Once again you speak of things that you do not know - there is introspection going on among the Liverpool fanbase, and enough outrage to dwarf that that has been seen on here. But that is not really the topic for debate on here, given that this is about whether Liverpool are 'the worst fans in Europe' - if you want I'll go and dig up any number of comments from Liverpool fans that'd entirely support your view, expressing outrage, etc.