Hillsborough piece in The Observer on Sunday

[Verbal]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009 ... -survivors

Pretty harrowing.

[blurred]

It was an excellent piece, including input from one of my friends who I see regularly at the match (the ex-wife, Angie).

It's the ambulance man's comments that get me, though. Just a selection here, for those who don't click on the link:

"As we pulled up a policeman came to my window and said: "You can't go on the pitch, they're still fighting." A senior ambulance officer came to the door, and it was him who put the horns on. We said: "The policeman says they're fighting - we can't go on." And he said: "I don't give a f*ck who's told you you can't go on. You get on that pitch and you don't stop until you get to the end."

"There were 44 ambulances waiting outside the stadium - that means 80-odd staff could have been inside the ground. But they weren't allowed in. There was no fighting!"

"The Taylor inquiry was told my ambulance never got on to the pitch: it would've contradicted evidence given in another case. But I was there, in the police CCTV videos. All these questions they would have had to ask me are key to the mismanagement of Hillsborough. If they had asked me, it would have been disastrous for the police and the ambulance services."

Couldn't find a larger picture (there was one in the Observer on Sunday), but seems to me like there was an ambulance on the pitch:



Absolute f*cking stitch-up from start to finish. It makes me angry.

[Raven]

It was an excellent piece, including input from one of my friends who I see regularly at the match (the ex-wife, Angie).

It's the ambulance man's comments that get me, though. Just a selection here, for those who don't click on the link:

"As we pulled up a policeman came to my window and said: "You can't go on the pitch, they're still fighting." A senior ambulance officer came to the door, and it was him who put the horns on. We said: "The policeman says they're fighting - we can't go on." And he said: "I don't give a f*ck who's told you you can't go on. You get on that pitch and you don't stop until you get to the end."

"There were 44 ambulances waiting outside the stadium - that means 80-odd staff could have been inside the ground. But they weren't allowed in. There was no fighting!"

"The Taylor inquiry was told my ambulance never got on to the pitch: it would've contradicted evidence given in another case. But I was there, in the police CCTV videos. All these questions they would have had to ask me are key to the mismanagement of Hillsborough. If they had asked me, it would have been disastrous for the police and the ambulance services."

Couldn't find a larger picture (there was one in the Observer on Sunday), but seems to me like there was an ambulance on the pitch:



Absolute f*cking stitch-up from start to finish. It makes me angry.

The worst bit is its so obvious to everyone and nothings ever been done about it.

[Raven]

This bit too from the same man

"I was the only professional ambulance attendant to reach the Leppings Lane, but I was written out of the disaster. I was given a commendation (which I ripped up), and I represented the South Yorkshire ambulance service at the memorial service, but I wasn't called to the Taylor inquiry. I didn't exist. You look at the Taylor report - I didn't exist. When I was interviewed by the West Midlands police I questioned the whole thing: why was I put in that position, you know? They didn't want that aired in court"

Sorry but even now I will admit this makes me angry and I had to give up reading that, I was as at Fulham that day and the sun was shining we had a great time but could not work out why the score was not coming in from that game, we then heard something on a car radio about people dieing and the match had been called off, it was not until we got home that we saw what had happened. I remember that night or one just after it standing in the local takeaway, the TV was on and covering the tragedy and looking around everyone standing waiting for their food looked shocked and some had tears in their eyes.....not ashamed to admit I was one.

[blurred]

The worst bit is its so obvious to everyone and nothings ever been done about it.

Not everyone, sadly. Hillsborough is used as a stick to beat Liverpool fans with, to beat Scousers with, to beat the pro-standing lobby with, to beat all football fans with... A lot of things are not 'obvious to everyone', and indeed, some of those that are 'obvious to everyone' are huge misconceptions. A lot of things have been learned post-Hillsborough, and a lot of improvements have been made, but I still think a great deal has been missed, and a proper and serious debate/re-examination is called for, to clarify the truth and to help people move forward.

[Raven]

The worst bit is its so obvious to everyone and nothings ever been done about it.

Not everyone, sadly. Hillsborough is used as a stick to beat Liverpool fans with, to beat Scousers with, to beat the pro-standing lobby with, to beat all football fans with... A lot of things are not 'obvious to everyone', and indeed, some of those that are 'obvious to everyone' are huge misconceptions. A lot of things have been learned post-Hillsborough, and a lot of improvements have been made, but I still think a great deal has been missed, and a proper and serious debate/re-examination is called for, to clarify the truth and to help people move forward.

Only bloody pathetic idiots and those who want to hide a lot of the truth.

You can clearly see the non existent ambulance here

http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/anne.shtm

[Hoboh]

The worst bit is its so obvious to everyone and nothings ever been done about it.

Not everyone, sadly. Hillsborough is used as a stick to beat Liverpool fans with, to beat Scousers with, to beat the pro-standing lobby with, to beat all football fans with... A lot of things are not 'obvious to everyone', and indeed, some of those that are 'obvious to everyone' are huge misconceptions. A lot of things have been learned post-Hillsborough, and a lot of improvements have been made, but I still think a great deal has been missed, and a proper and serious debate/re-examination is called for, to clarify the truth and to help people move forward.

No offence meant Blurred but just how do people move forward by dragging this up again?
Surely this was a tragic accident no one without the benefit of hindsight could have seen? there were contributing factors from all sides involved in that days events, no one really has clean hands, I doubt anything else other than spreading the proportion of blame to a different place will be learned for future crowd safety.
The dead should be allowed to rest in peace.

[Raven]

I think its called wanting justice!

[blurred]

Surely this was a tragic accident no one without the benefit of hindsight could have seen?

I'll stop you there and tell you you're wrong. There were problems at previous semi-finals at Hillsborough, in the Leppings Lane End, but lessons not learned. The stadium had an expired safety certificate, and questions were asked about its suitability before the match, as well as the allocation of the larger Kop end to the smaller following of Nottingham Forest, access to the pitch (as a method of escaping potential trouble) had been advocated after Bradford 4 years earlier, among other things. It was foreseeable. It was preventable.

there were contributing factors from all sides involved in that days events, no one really has clean hands, I doubt anything else other than spreading the proportion of blame to a different place will be learned for future crowd safety.

Yes, a large number of contributory factors came into play, and a large number of individuals from fans themselves, to individual policemen, the match commanders, the stadium management... The future of crowd safety is one of the things that Hillsborough has tainted, though - people seem to assume that standing caused Hillsborough, and that any return to standing would see a return to crowd deaths in grounds. This simply isn't the case. Football fans are treated on reputation and not on behaviour, and rational argument is lost amongst misinformed conclusions drawn from imperfect information. There should be a full and frank exchange of views on a number of subjects, but the ghost of Hillsborough still looms large over them, and a proper investigation and conclusion needs to be drawn on a number of issues. Yes, I believe there's a 'fight for justice' and that people should be held to account, but there's also wider implications. I also think that a thorough re-investigation would also serve to bring out the facts of what happened, rather than rumour, half-truth and misinformation that has been the case since.

The dead should be allowed to rest in peace.

When the coroner says that everyone was dead by 3.15pm, and there is more than one example of a person being alive well after that, how can you let the dead rest in peace, knowing that the truth about a large number of peoples deaths hasn't been heard? Why should Anne Williams accept that nothing could've been done to prevent her son's death because a coroner arbitrarily said he'd died over half an hour before he'd had his last breath? I don't want to paint it as 'how many other deaths have they covered up?', but more 'how many others could have been saved?' These fans died at the hands of the state, and they deserve a thorough investigation into how that was allowed to happen.

[BWFC_Insane]

Surely this was a tragic accident no one without the benefit of hindsight could have seen?

I'll stop you there and tell you you're wrong. There were problems at previous semi-finals at Hillsborough, in the Leppings Lane End, but lessons not learned. The stadium had an expired safety certificate, and questions were asked about its suitability before the match, as well as the allocation of the larger Kop end to the smaller following of Nottingham Forest, access to the pitch (as a method of escaping potential trouble) had been advocated after Bradford 4 years earlier, among other things. It was foreseeable. It was preventable.

there were contributing factors from all sides involved in that days events, no one really has clean hands, I doubt anything else other than spreading the proportion of blame to a different place will be learned for future crowd safety.

Yes, a large number of contributory factors came into play, and a large number of individuals from fans themselves, to individual policemen, the match commanders, the stadium management... The future of crowd safety is one of the things that Hillsborough has tainted, though - people seem to assume that standing caused Hillsborough, and that any return to standing would see a return to crowd deaths in grounds. This simply isn't the case. Football fans are treated on reputation and not on behaviour, and rational argument is lost amongst misinformed conclusions drawn from imperfect information. There should be a full and frank exchange of views on a number of subjects, but the ghost of Hillsborough still looms large over them, and a proper investigation and conclusion needs to be drawn on a number of issues. Yes, I believe there's a 'fight for justice' and that people should be held to account, but there's also wider implications. I also think that a thorough re-investigation would also serve to bring out the facts of what happened, rather than rumour, half-truth and misinformation that has been the case since.

The dead should be allowed to rest in peace.

When the coroner says that everyone was dead by 3.15pm, and there is more than one example of a person being alive well after that, how can you let the dead rest in peace, knowing that the truth about a large number of peoples deaths hasn't been heard? Why should Anne Williams accept that nothing could've been done to prevent her son's death because a coroner arbitrarily said he'd died over half an hour before he'd had his last breath? I don't want to paint it as 'how many other deaths have they covered up?', but more 'how many others could have been saved?' These fans died at the hands of the state, and they deserve a thorough investigation into how that was allowed to happen.

It changes fook all.

So it should be left in the past.

Have we had problems since? No.

So the lessons have been learned. I'm sick of hearing about Hillsborough. There are worse things happening in the world every day.

[blurred]

It changes fook all.

So it should be left in the past.

Have we had problems since? No.

So the lessons have been learned. I'm sick of hearing about Hillsborough. There are worse things happening in the world every day.

We being the UK? Yes. We're fortunate.

We being football fans? No.

There have been at least 182 deaths in all-seater stadia within the last decade, and so the mantra of 'all-seater stadia = safety' is plainly false. There are always lessons to be learned. There are plenty of near-misses. To assume that because we in England haven't had any more deaths that it is no longer a problem and doesn't deserve/require review and investigation is a pretty negligent stance, I have to say.

[Worthy4England]

It changes fook all.

So it should be left in the past.

Have we had problems since? No.

So the lessons have been learned. I'm sick of hearing about Hillsborough. There are worse things happening in the world every day.

We being the UK? Yes. We're fortunate.

We being football fans? No.

There have been deaths in all-seater stadia within the last decade, and so the mantra of 'all-seater stadia = safety' is plainly false. There are always lessons to be learned. There are plenty of near-misses. To assume that because we in England haven't had any more deaths that it is no longer a problem and doesn't deserve/require review and investigation is a pretty negligent stance, I have to say.

How many of the deaths in all seater stadia have been due to people sitting down, and how many of them occurred because people were doing other things than sitting down?

Where I'm trying to get to is whether these deaths in all-seater stadia are down to them being over-subscribed - too many people trying to get into too small a space - or whether they're down to hooly type activities...

[BWFC_Insane]

It changes fook all.

So it should be left in the past.

Have we had problems since? No.

So the lessons have been learned. I'm sick of hearing about Hillsborough. There are worse things happening in the world every day.

We being the UK? Yes. We're fortunate.

We being football fans? No.

There have been at least 182 deaths in all-seater stadia within the last decade, and so the mantra of 'all-seater stadia = safety' is plainly false. There are always lessons to be learned. There are plenty of near-misses. To assume that because we in England haven't had any more deaths that it is no longer a problem and doesn't deserve/require review and investigation is a pretty negligent stance, I have to say.

Fooking hell.

How can an investigation into Hillsborough prevent deaths in all seater stadiums?

[blurred]

How many of the deaths in all seater stadia have been due to people sitting down, and how many of them occurred because people were doing other things than sitting down?

Where I'm trying to get to is whether these deaths in all-seater stadia are down to them being over-subscribed - too many people trying to get into too small a space - or whether they're down to hooly type activities...

They were largely down to poor policing of people in seating areas, and lack of control of ingress and egress. Exactly the same as the substantive causes of Hillsborough as laid down in the Taylor Report.

[BWFC_Insane]

How many of the deaths in all seater stadia have been due to people sitting down, and how many of them occurred because people were doing other things than sitting down?

Where I'm trying to get to is whether these deaths in all-seater stadia are down to them being over-subscribed - too many people trying to get into too small a space - or whether they're down to hooly type activities...

They were largely down to poor policing of people in seating areas, and lack of control of ingress and egress. Exactly the same as the substantive causes of Hillsborough as laid down in the Taylor Report.

Evidence? I've not heard of any serious crushes in seating areas.

[blurred]

They were largely down to poor policing of people in seating areas, and lack of control of ingress and egress. Exactly the same as the substantive causes of Hillsborough as laid down in the Taylor Report.

Evidence? I've not heard of any serious crushes in seating areas.

First one off the top of my head is the incident in Ellis Park, in which 43 people were crushed to death. Turnstile operators allegedly allowed too many people in, a goal was scored, and the resultant surge forward cost people their lives.

The Official Report into the disaster.

The BBC's take on it

There was also the crowd disturbance in a match in Ghana where police fired tear-gas into the stand, resulting in 127 deaths due to the crush. Some exits had been locked in this instance, meaning supporters couldn't escape. Police officers here were charged with Manslaughter over the incident. There was no mention in this instance of the area being over-subscribed, as is alleged in the South African example above, however.

Think this is an African problem? Ask a United fan who was in Lille the other year if crowd crushes can occur in European all-seater stadia in the continent's premier competition. I think they'd say yes.

[enfieldwhite]

Remind me again, where's next year's World Cup being held?

[blurred]

Remind me again, where's next year's World Cup being held?

Indeed. But of course that's all in the past, there's no lessons to be learned.

[BWFC_Insane]

They were largely down to poor policing of people in seating areas, and lack of control of ingress and egress. Exactly the same as the substantive causes of Hillsborough as laid down in the Taylor Report.

Evidence? I've not heard of any serious crushes in seating areas.

First one off the top of my head is the incident in Ellis Park, in which 43 people were crushed to death. Turnstile operators allegedly allowed too many people in, a goal was scored, and the resultant surge forward cost people their lives.

The Official Report into the disaster.

The BBC's take on it

There was also the crowd disturbance in a match in Ghana where police fired tear-gas into the stand, resulting in 127 deaths due to the crush. Some exits had been locked in this instance, meaning supporters couldn't escape. Police officers here were charged with Manslaughter over the incident. There was no mention in this instance of the area being over-subscribed, as is alleged in the South African example above, however.

Think this is an African problem? Ask a United fan who was in Lille the other year if crowd crushes can occur in European all-seater stadia in the continent's premier competition. I think they'd say yes.

I mean the 182 deaths in seating areas in the UK.

Thats what matters because its our society that has learned the lessons.

Our policing at matches that has improved. We all know its not the same in every country.

The lessons have been learned here.

[fatshaft]

Remind me again, where's next year's World Cup being held?

Indeed. But of course that's all in the past, there's no lessons to be learned.

But the ongoing campaign has nothing to do with foreign stadia, but trying to pin blame on someone as being culpable for the accident of Hillsborough.

If you're now saying that the campaigners are actually going round the world trying to improve stadium safety, (as you admit there hasn't been a single death in the UK since) then fair play. I think however no such campaign exists.