Old Firm in the Premier League - really?

[Zulus Thousand of em]

So the mighty Rangers get gubbed 1-4 at home against a load of tram drivers and farmers whose side currently sits fourth in the Romanian League. Do they really think they can just waltz into the Premier League - or the "Atlantic League" for that matter?

Rola Cola 2 if they're lucky - if you ask me!

[fatshaft]

As ever, you're missing the point. It's not how good they are now, it's where they'd be with the addition of SKY money, and the potential they have. As you can imagine I have no love of the OF, but to suggest they couldn't compete in very short order is extremely niave.

Old Firm need to help improve the league they’re in

Mark McGhee

Published on 10 Oct 2009

The prospect that Celtic and or Rangers (I can’t remember anyone at Ibrox fantasising about it publicly) will one day play in the English Premier League has once again been raised.

Only by Peter Lawwell, it has to be said, and not by the chairman or chief executive of that league.

I would like to go on the record now and say that Aberdeen would also fancy playing in the English top flight and that we would appreciate Peter including us in any conversations that he might have regarding abdication.

I think all of the other clubs in Scotland would feel equally keen to have a crack down south. The millions that are on offer down there would be hard to resist for any of us.

I’m not sure, though, that the chairmen of West Ham, Wolves, Burnley and Portsmouth were all phoning round each other on hearing Peter’s comments suggesting that they do their best to expedite Celtic’s move. It would be like turkeys voting for Christmas.

On examination, what do Celtic have to offer the English Premier League?

Full houses and one of the best 
travelling supports in Britain, not a lot else. And the travelling support would be curtailed anyway by the fact that most matches are as good as sold out by home fans.

I think that Celtic talking publicly about this is rude and disingenuous to the rest of us. Peter said that no club other than Celtic or Rangers will win the SPL and that seems true at the moment, although his team didn’t win it last year any more than Aberdeen did so what are the criteria for being included in the application to defect? Clearly being champions is not one of them so Aberdeen tick that box. Perhaps winning a European trophy is one? Well Aberdeen were the last Scottish team to win a cup in Europe if I am not mistaken, so we tick that box. We would certainly sell out if the likes of Manchester United or Liverpool were coming to town. Another tick. Aberdeen don’t attract the 60,000 that Celtic do but we would extend our plans for our new stadium to accommodate the numbers that would be attending these matches. We would build a modern out-of-town stadium that would make Celtic’s hemmed-in Parkhead seem antiquated.

Under the present structure the Old Firm clubs will never get to play in England. Only some sort of independent breakaway group, which would probably include the European “super clubs”, would offer that possibility, but how would that work? Something like that would represent the final frontier in football. What would happen when the fans of those clubs tired of that competition? There would be nowhere else to go. It would be the end of the modern game.

A strong global game relies on strong national competitions. Most countries are similar to Scotland, and that includes England: only a few clubs have the resources to win the national competition. In the last 10 years only three clubs have won the English Premier League. That represents 15% of the clubs in that league. In Scotland’s case the figure is over 16%, which renders that argument spurious.

That the other clubs would be better off without the Old Firm is another opinion that is repeated. How they would be better off has never been explained to me. Automatic qualification for one of us into the Champions League seems like an attractive proposition but in the absence of the two Old Firm clubs Uefa would soon change that. How would it affect the national game? Would it lead to a British team and the loss of our national identity on the international stage? Eventually. Don’t Celtic care about protecting that, or do they put self-interest first?

Surely, rather than bleating on about something that will never happen, the two Glasgow giants should look closer to home and help address some of the problems facing Scottish football.

As finances are squeezed year on year we will be forced to source our new players from lower and lower down the leagues and from abroad. This process will erode the quality of the competition and Celtic and Rangers will increase their domination of the Scottish game. We have to look really seriously at the whole structure of our game if we are going to maintain any sort of standard in our competition. And like it or not Celtic and Rangers are, and are going to remain, a part of it. The Glasgow clubs have the power with the broadcasters and can drive the process. We need help now or our game will become irrelevant in the scheme of European leagues. The SPL will soon be viewed internationally on the same terms as The League of Ireland. Its status is important to Celtic and Rangers so there is self-interest in them contributing. Investors and sponsors as well as broadcasters and the media will lose interest if the quality of the competition is allowed to deteriorate much further.

[BWFC_Insane]

Aye but if we're going to invite two teams from a third world country who need a helping hand to be any good into the premiership, we might as well ask those Romanians!

[Worthy4England]

As ever, you're missing the point. It's not how good they are now, it's where they'd be with the addition of SKY money, and the potential they have. As you can imagine I have no love of the OF, but to suggest they couldn't compete in very short order is extremely niave.

Celtic have £72m Revenue at the moment and Rangers are reporting £33m for the half year end (so £66m projected). This is already more than all but 9 Premier League teams. So I think outside a fairly "elite" set of clubs in terms of money making, they're already there financially - just not in footballing terms.

[Zulus Thousand of em]

No, I haven't missed that point Fatshaft - but well done for reiterating it. Personally I don't want either set of bigots polluting the game south of the border.

It's about time you lot decided whether you are Scottish or British in most areas of life too, whilst we are on about it. Most Jocks come across as Scots when it suits them and then they can be all British when the shit hits the fan.

And it's no coincidence that the banking sector has been goosed since the Sweaties took control of most high street banking groups!!

And breathe...

[fatshaft]

No, I haven't missed that point Fatshaft - but well done for reiterating it. Personally I don't want either set of bigots polluting the game south of the border.

It's about time you lot decided whether you are Scottish or British in most areas of life too, whilst we are on about it. Most Jocks come across as Scots when it suits them and then they can be all British when the shit hits the fan.

And it's no coincidence that the banking sector has been goosed since the Sweaties took control of most high street banking groups!!

And breathe...

It is actually, you may not have noticed, but we are but one country, amidst a world of recession. And the reason that RBS and Bank of Scotland took over the like sof LLoyds and Nat West, is becasue they were a total shambles. And before you ask, I used to work in banking.

And again, it would be appreciated if the guffies did't compare the rest of us to the English an Irish wannabes from Glasgow.

[Bruce Rioja]

What's a guffie?

[boltonboris]

If we were to invite a couple of big clubs with large revenues into the premier league, we'd invite Newcastle and Leeds back in! They like everbody else should have to prove they are good enough, not just walk into the goldmine and get first dibs

[fatshaft]

What's a guffie?

the English equivalent of a sweatie

[dasher]

After the standard of behaviour from the Hibs fans guess they would need to review the fans side before they agreed to this. No idea if this is the norm in Scottish football but we can do without getting back to the rampaging mobs looking for a fight syndrome.

Presumably if they did invite them they would be looking at guaranteeing they didn't go down to the Championship for a few seasons in the same way they do in Rugby League

[Worthy4England]

If we were to invite a couple of big clubs with large revenues into the premier league, we'd invite Newcastle and Leeds back in! They like everbody else should have to prove they are good enough, not just walk into the goldmine and get first dibs

Correct - all that Sky money would sort it all out for them, as has been clearly demonstrated.

Whilst we're on the subject, I'm sure little owd Bolton would much prefer to get the Sky money that United get. Might even the playing field a bit.

But since that's not what the Prem is about, I'd rather Celtic and Rangers stayed exactly where they are in the SPL thanks.

[Bruce Rioja]

What's a guffie?

the English equivalent of a sweatie

Thank you, my friend. Dependable as ever.

Being as I know you to be of sound humour, here's Michael McIntyre's take on matters Caledonian.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1j31AnF1zs

[Hoboh]

No, I haven't missed that point Fatshaft - but well done for reiterating it. Personally I don't want either set of bigots polluting the game south of the border.

It's about time you lot decided whether you are Scottish or British in most areas of life too, whilst we are on about it. Most Jocks come across as Scots when it suits them and then they can be all British when the shit hits the fan.

And it's no coincidence that the banking sector has been goosed since the Sweaties took control of most high street banking groups!!

And breathe...

It is actually, you may not have noticed, but we are but one country, amidst a world of recession. And the reason that RBS and Bank of Scotland took over the like sof LLoyds and Nat West, is becasue they were a total shambles. And before you ask, I used to work in banking.

And again, it would be appreciated if the guffies did't compare the rest of us to the English an Irish wannabes from Glasgow.

Am I missing something here??? Lloyds rather stupidly took over and tried to bail out RBS wasn't it? and screwed themselves in the process!
Scotland should have independance? you would have been on the same boat as Iceland if you had!

[fatshaft]

What's a guffie?

the English equivalent of a sweatie

Thank you, my friend. Dependable as ever.

Being as I know you to be of sound humour, here's Michael McIntyre's take on matters Caledonian.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1j31AnF1zs

Saw trhat a couple of weeks ago - legal tender - had to laugh, how many times have I used that exact phrase myself

[fatshaft]

Am I missing something here??? Lloyds rather stupidly took over and tried to bail out RBS wasn't it? and screwed themselves in the process!
Scotland should have independance? you would have been on the same boat as Iceland if you had!

Well, tbh I'm not particularly interested in a banking argument if you must know. RBS took over NW, BoS took over Halifax, if Lloyds then took over HBOS, I won;t really be losing much sleep about my faulty memory of world banking.

[Bruce Rioja]

Saw trhat a couple of weeks ago - legal tender - had to laugh, how many times have I used that exact phrase myself

Two absolutely vital lessons that I've learned in terms of numismatic tendering are that they accept Ulster Bank notes at the Shell station on the A75 in Dumfries, and that they accept all Scottish notes at Westmorland Services on the southbound M6.

[Prufrock]

I have no problem with them joining the English leagues, just like we have some Welsh teams. If they want to do it though they can start at the bottom of the league pillar, not blag their way in undeserved to the top table.

[Jakerbeef]

I do think Scottish football is royally screwed if they did jump ship, and that their reasons would be in completely bad faith if they did.

But then (and I've been away for a bit so I don't know for sure) isn't there a divide between fans of the national team and old firm fans? It all got a bit petty with the boyd/boozegate incidents, which of course gave Rangers fans ammo to go after some sort of ridiculous Celtic bias in the national team? Typically shooting ourselves in the foot before anyone else has taken aim.

It would set the game back to let them join, as I'm 100% sure there would be all sorts of supporter trouble and racist stuff kicking off back and forth. The more I think about it- a completely mindless idea.

[fatshaft]

But then (and I've been away for a bit so I don't know for sure) isn't there a divide between fans of the national team and old firm fans? It all got a bit petty with the boyd/boozegate incidents, which of course gave Rangers fans ammo to go after some sort of ridiculous Celtic bias in the national team? Typically shooting ourselves in the foot before anyone else has taken aim.

Yes and no. You have a pretty reasonable number of fans of both sides who see themselves as Scottish and support the national team, you also have a reasonable number who see themselves as Irish/British and take great delight in flying the tricolour/union Jack at other grounds, and singing Irish songs/GSTQ/Rule Britannia.

As for the boozegate nonsense, the few Rangers fans I know or have heard expressing opinions, were totally against Boyd/Fergie/McGregor, and fully behind the actions taken by Burley and Watty Smith.

It would set the game back to let them join, as I'm 100% sure there would be all sorts of supporter trouble and racist stuff kicking off back and forth. The more I think about it- a completely mindless idea.

You are right to be worried.

While I would be fecking delighted to see them leave Scotland, as would nearly all fans of other teams up there, I don't see any real upside for England, the upside is all on the side of the Glasgow clubs. I just can't see who would vote this in?

[Jakerbeef]

As for the boozegate nonsense, the few Rangers fans I know or have heard expressing opinions, were totally against Boyd/Fergie/McGregor, and fully behind the actions taken by Burley and Watty Smith.

Ah, I must read too much of the Daily Record letters section.