4-4-2

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Puskas
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4-4-2

Post by Puskas » Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:45 am

Given that one of our former managers declared the 4-4-2 formation as dead some years ago, and a couple of eminent posters on this board seem to have sympathy with this view, I found this article interesting:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/20 ... xt-for-442

We are likely to play 4-4-2 in a fairly large proportion of our games next season - at least home games. And I would suggest we wouldn't be playing a high pressing game or use it as a stifling tactic.

If you like reading books, by the way (and I can't say I approve of that, if you do), many folk recommend Jonathan Wilson's (the article's author) "Inverting the pyramid" - a history of tactics and formations in football.
Although he is rather uncomplementary towards Charles Reep, questioning the reliability of his statistics...
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Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:51 am

If you have two really good dominant wingers and a centre forward partnership that is effective, coupled with two genuine dominating central midfield players ideally one who can tackle and one who can both tackle and pass, both athletic and capable of covering lots of ground, then 4-4-2 can be a very good system in the premiership.

However, if you don't have that for me the 4-3-3/4-5-1 system works a treat because of its flexibility!

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Post by boltonboris » Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:22 pm

In my book (not a written one!) 4-4-2 is fone with the personnel.. 2 dominant(ish) - 1 who can play comfortably with the ball at his feet, always willing to recieve a pass, without being dragged out of position. One of the Strikers has to a proper grafter and I don't just mean closing down 'keepers and getting a kicking off of defenders. But one who works the channels, drops deep looking for the ball and who can link up with a more static and clinical forward. Elmander and Klasnic would be ideal, but Klasnic aint an option any more(IMO)
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Post by Puskas » Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:28 pm

Indeed. On the other hand 4-3-3/4-5-1 isn't perfect. We played it well under Allardyce because we had lots of midfielders who would push forward and could score, alongside a striker who (I believe) was signed because we couldn't afford a goalscoring striker, so bought one who could bring these attacking midfielders into the game.

4-3-3-/4-5-1 becomes rather less effective if you don't have those midfielders - and since we got rid of Nolan/Stelios/Diouf etc, we haven't really. Taylor isn't mobile enough - not that I'm decrying him as lazy or slow, but he doesn't move around in the same way that the players I mentioned above did - shove him as part of a front three and he tends to stick out on the left. And he's our main goalscoring midfielder. Lee could possibly do it, along with someone else. Petrov? Not sure - he strikes me as a more "traditonal" winger. But maybe I've not seen enough of him.

Or then, of course, there's 4-2-3-1 in which Muamba and Davis protect the defenders, with (Wilshire(??)|M.Davies|Holden|A.N.Other), Petrov and Lee pushing forward supporting someone...
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Post by boltonboris » Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:38 pm

Puskas wrote:Indeed. On the other hand 4-3-3/4-5-1 isn't perfect. We played it well under Allardyce because we had lots of midfielders who would push forward and could score, alongside a striker who (I believe) was signed because we couldn't afford a goalscoring striker, so bought one who could bring these attacking midfielders into the game.

4-3-3-/4-5-1 becomes rather less effective if you don't have those midfielders - and since we got rid of Nolan/Stelios/Diouf etc, we haven't really. Taylor isn't mobile enough - not that I'm decrying him as lazy or slow, but he doesn't move around in the same way that the players I mentioned above did - shove him as part of a front three and he tends to stick out on the left. And he's our main goalscoring midfielder. Lee could possibly do it, along with someone else. Petrov? Not sure - he strikes me as a more "traditonal" winger. But maybe I've not seen enough of him.

Or then, of course, there's 4-2-3-1 in which Muamba and Davis protect the defenders, with (Wilshire(??)|M.Davies|Holden|A.N.Other), Petrov and Lee pushing forward supporting someone...
4-2-3-1 will be seen a lot in the coming seasons..
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Post by truewhite15 » Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:41 pm

I'm a fan of the 4-5-1 system, where a defensive midfielder sits just in front of the back four, just behind two hard-working but ball-playing central midfielders, two attacking wingers on the flanks and a strong striker up front. Essentially, what we used to play during the days of Allardyce. I'd argue that we do have the players to use this formation, with Lee and Petrov on the wings, Muamba as the DM and Sean Davis as one of the CMs. The other CM position would be given to whoever had proved themselves that week in training between Taylor, Holden, Mavies or Wilshere (if he comes back).
However, I'd argue that we wouldn't be playing so much a 4-4-2 next season as a 4-1-1-2-2, with Muamba just behind CM-X, the wingers just ahead of him, and the strikers of SKD and Elmander (or A.N. Other) doing what strikers do.

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Post by boltonboris » Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:45 pm

truewhite15 wrote:I'm a fan of the 4-5-1 system, where a defensive midfielder sits just in front of the back four, just behind two hard-working but ball-playing central midfielders, two attacking wingers on the flanks and a strong striker up front. Essentially, what we used to play during the days of Allardyce. I'd argue that we do have the players to use this formation, with Lee and Petrov on the wings, Muamba as the DM and Sean Davis as one of the CMs. The other CM position would be given to whoever had proved themselves that week in training between Taylor, Holden, Mavies or Wilshere (if he comes back).
However, I'd argue that we wouldn't be playing so much a 4-4-2 next season as a 4-1-1-2-2, with Muamba just behind CM-X, the wingers just ahead of him, and the strikers of SKD and Elmander (or A.N. Other) doing what strikers do.
I also, believe we have the players capable of playing 4-3-3 / 4-5-1. But it's clear we won't be playing these systems very often. Particularly at home
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Post by Worthy4England » Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:57 pm

boltonboris wrote:
truewhite15 wrote:I'm a fan of the 4-5-1 system, where a defensive midfielder sits just in front of the back four, just behind two hard-working but ball-playing central midfielders, two attacking wingers on the flanks and a strong striker up front. Essentially, what we used to play during the days of Allardyce. I'd argue that we do have the players to use this formation, with Lee and Petrov on the wings, Muamba as the DM and Sean Davis as one of the CMs. The other CM position would be given to whoever had proved themselves that week in training between Taylor, Holden, Mavies or Wilshere (if he comes back).
However, I'd argue that we wouldn't be playing so much a 4-4-2 next season as a 4-1-1-2-2, with Muamba just behind CM-X, the wingers just ahead of him, and the strikers of SKD and Elmander (or A.N. Other) doing what strikers do.
I also, believe we have the players capable of playing 4-3-3 / 4-5-1. But it's clear we won't be playing these systems very often. Particularly at home
I think last time we discussed this, there was some concensus that 4-5-1, that can move to 4-3-3 with some fluidity was fine (then again that could have been just the way I view it :-) ).

I think where people were having problems accepting 4-5-1 under Megson, was when it remained a very defensive 4-5-1, with little hope of turning defence into attack.

The Stoke game last season was a "classic" example.

A midfield of Steinsson, McCann, Muamba, Cohen and Taylor, doesn't really strike you as having too many people capable of providing the out-ball other than a lump up to Davo.

When we changed in the second half to replace Steinsson with Gardner and Muamba with Klasnic, we actually looked better going forwards as a 4-4-2, but looked at more risk at the back.

We didn't, in my opinion look like we could ever win the game with our initial set-up.

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Post by hisroyalgingerness » Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:25 pm

Our 4-5-1 was outplayed by many a 4-4-2 if memory serves :mrgreen:

4-4-2 for me is a game of pairs. A left flank, a right flank, two centre halfs, two midfielders and a strike partnership. You need strong relationships, understanding and clear objectives for those pairings. If they're hunting in a pack on a wing stopping a cross from coming in, it can be really effective, as can a devastating strike partnership. Not many of them now though in the days of squad rotation and 4-5-1.

The Guardian are fecking hypocrites by the wy. Plenty of time we've been harangued for our negative 4-5-1, til they realised every fooker played it.

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Post by Horza » Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:13 am

to be fair, direct 4-5-1 is pretty fookin dull. Ideally 4-2-3-1 is built around posession and lotsa nice little triangles.
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Post by bobo the clown » Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:00 pm

Horza wrote:to be fair, direct 4-5-1 is pretty fookin dull. Ideally 4-2-3-1 is built around posession and lotsa nice little triangles.
Yay !!!

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though my preference would be this one .... it's a bit less 'Arsenal'

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Post by Zulus Thousand of em » Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:52 pm

... and a bit more Masonic.
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