Diving Arsenal Players - The Least Shocking Admission Ever

There ARE other teams(we'd have no-one to play otherwise) and here's where all-comers can discuss the wider world of football......

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Re: Diving Arsenal Players - The Least Shocking Admission Ev

Post by Abdoulaye's Twin » Wed Aug 17, 2016 6:01 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Why have they won the league, more than once and Arsenal haven't?
Wenger

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Re: Diving Arsenal Players - The Least Shocking Admission Ev

Post by Bruce Rioja » Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:04 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Bruce Rioja wrote: Chinney :lol:
Fine. Explain why then, in your own words Chelsea and Man City, two clubs well below Arsenal in the league table prior to their successes within the last decade have won the league multiple times in the same period that Arsenal haven't managed it?

Why have they won the league, more than once and Arsenal haven't?
You can't simply say that the reason they've won stuff is because they've spent money. You may believe that, but it can't be proved.
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Re: Diving Arsenal Players - The Least Shocking Admission Ev

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Aug 18, 2016 3:20 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Bruce Rioja wrote: Chinney :lol:
Fine. Explain why then, in your own words Chelsea and Man City, two clubs well below Arsenal in the league table prior to their successes within the last decade have won the league multiple times in the same period that Arsenal haven't managed it?

Why have they won the league, more than once and Arsenal haven't?
You can't simply say that the reason they've won stuff is because they've spent money. You may believe that, but it can't be proved.
I was asking you to explain why......in your own words those clubs suddenly started winning trophies.....it isn't that hard a question.

I mean it's pointless because it is fact that the reason they started doing well is because suddenly they had the money to go and buy the best players around. And did.

Money isn't a guarantee of success but as real academic studies have shown in football there is a correlation of about 70-80% between wage bill size and success, and further a large correlation between size of wage bill and overall spending.

It is very hard to suggest that money isn't a very significant factor, especially when Wenger himself believes it is.

Further IF you go down the road of saying money isn't everything then surely Wenger must be even shitter in that scenario....

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Re: Diving Arsenal Players - The Least Shocking Admission Ev

Post by Bruce Rioja » Thu Aug 18, 2016 3:30 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote: I was asking you to explain why......in your own words those clubs suddenly started winning trophies.....it isn't that hard a question.
It could be for many reasons, especially superior coaching and better recruitment. I've already given you the team of 92. You're claiming that expenditure = success and I'm saying that it simply isn't the case. Tell you what, you tell me, how did Allardyce's modestly assembled Bolton side's finish in the table when matched against the expensively assembled sides such as Newcastle, Leeds, Villa, Everton etc. A nice and easy one for you. ;)
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Re: Diving Arsenal Players - The Least Shocking Admission Ev

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Aug 18, 2016 3:39 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:
BWFC_Insane wrote: I was asking you to explain why......in your own words those clubs suddenly started winning trophies.....it isn't that hard a question.
It could be for many reasons, especially superior coaching and better recruitment. I've already given you the team of 92. You're claiming that expenditure = success and I'm saying that it simply isn't the case. Tell you what, you tell me, how did Allardyce's modestly assembled Bolton side's finish in the table when matched against the expensively assembled sides such as Newcastle, Leeds, Villa, Everton etc. A nice and easy one for you. ;)
Why are you putting words into my mouth? I haven't said that expenditure = guaranteed success. I've said there is a strong enough correlation between the two to suggest that whilst you will always have the odd side that confounds that, it is very hard to compete for the top trophies without similarly competing in the market for the best players. There are always going to be situations like Leicester that come about. But Leicester won't win this year. And probably won't win again in our lifetimes. Man City probably will, as will Chelsea etc...

My actual point was Arsenal charge their fans the most for tickets but aren't providing them the best players in return. And consequently or not, haven't had the success Arsenal fans want. One can with 100% certainty say they'd have had more chance of success if they'd bought the best players. Whether that is spending most money or not, it is also unarguable that Arsenal have not been buying the best players.

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Re: Diving Arsenal Players - The Least Shocking Admission Ev

Post by Prufrock » Thu Aug 18, 2016 3:39 pm

Not as well as they'd have done if he had had their budgets. Sure it's not the be all and end all, but all other things being equal (which in a comparison of Wenger spending vs him not) money usually wins.


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Re: Diving Arsenal Players - The Least Shocking Admission Ev

Post by thebish » Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:43 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Money isn't a guarantee of success but as real academic studies have shown in football there is a correlation of about 70-80% between wage bill size and success, and further a large correlation between size of wage bill and overall spending.

sooooooo.... we SHOULDN'T be getting those high wage earners off our books cos science shows us that we will win the league?
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Re: Diving Arsenal Players - The Least Shocking Admission Ev

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:50 pm

thebish wrote:
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Money isn't a guarantee of success but as real academic studies have shown in football there is a correlation of about 70-80% between wage bill size and success, and further a large correlation between size of wage bill and overall spending.

sooooooo.... we SHOULDN'T be getting those high wage earners off our books cos science shows us that we will win the league?
Well if you said to Parkinson that Spearing and Trotter, say are going and there isn't any money to replace them but don't worry we can sign a couple of pay as you play frees would you expect him to be happy with that and still have the same expectations for results?

Not some binary thing here. Money isn't the only factor otherwise nobody would bother watching.

But it is a big one especially the higher up the ladder you go where the differences become more extreme.

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Re: Diving Arsenal Players - The Least Shocking Admission Ev

Post by Bruce Rioja » Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:10 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote: Money isn't a guarantee of success but as real academic studies have shown in football there is a correlation of about 70-80% between wage bill size and success, and further a large correlation between size of wage bill and overall spending.
I'd missed this. "Real academic studies"? Over to you!
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Re: Diving Arsenal Players - The Least Shocking Admission Ev

Post by thebish » Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:26 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
thebish wrote:
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Money isn't a guarantee of success but as real academic studies have shown in football there is a correlation of about 70-80% between wage bill size and success, and further a large correlation between size of wage bill and overall spending.

sooooooo.... we SHOULDN'T be getting those high wage earners off our books cos science shows us that we will win the league?
Well if you said to Parkinson that Spearing and Trotter, say are going and there isn't any money to replace them but don't worry we can sign a couple of pay as you play frees would you expect him to be happy with that and still have the same expectations for results?

Not some binary thing here. Money isn't the only factor otherwise nobody would bother watching.

But it is a big one especially the higher up the ladder you go where the differences become more extreme.
you need to freshen up your spotters-guide to gentle joshery skillz! do I really have to put a winky-emoticon EVERY time??? :conf:
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Re: Diving Arsenal Players - The Least Shocking Admission Ev

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:29 pm

^^ Fairly sure it's been in a couple of Deloitte's and/or David Conn's analyses...Whilst there have been some "outliers" - including us, the correlation was pretty good between wage bill and final league table position...not sure they count as "academic"

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Re: Diving Arsenal Players - The Least Shocking Admission Ev

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:50 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:
BWFC_Insane wrote: Money isn't a guarantee of success but as real academic studies have shown in football there is a correlation of about 70-80% between wage bill size and success, and further a large correlation between size of wage bill and overall spending.
I'd missed this. "Real academic studies"? Over to you!
http://www.open.edu/openlearn/money-man ... s-football" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For example.

The author here has published a few papers looking wage bill and performance way back to the 90's and found a strong correlation.

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Re: Diving Arsenal Players - The Least Shocking Admission Ev

Post by Bruce Rioja » Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:08 pm

Doesn't prove anything, as I've mentioned. Prove it. That's what I asked you to do and you can't.
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Re: Diving Arsenal Players - The Least Shocking Admission Ev

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:15 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:Doesn't prove anything, as I've mentioned. Prove it. That's what I asked you to do and you can't.
Prove what? That there is a 90% correlation between wage spending and success? I've just done that.

And I've never claimed anything else. I've proven exactly what I have claimed.

You haven't. You've got to show me academic evidence that spending is irrelevant to the chance of success in top flight football.

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Re: Diving Arsenal Players - The Least Shocking Admission Ev

Post by Bruce Rioja » Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:27 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Bruce Rioja wrote:Doesn't prove anything, as I've mentioned. Prove it. That's what I asked you to do and you can't.
Prove what? That there is a 90% correlation between wage spending and success? I've just done that.

And I've never claimed anything else. I've proven exactly what I have claimed.

You haven't. You've got to show me academic evidence that spending is irrelevant to the chance of success in top flight football.
You haven't proved a fecking thing! You support Bolton Wanderers, is that correct? Has it not registered to you you how we've achieved beyond clubs that have spent considerably more on players? There's a pattern which supports you but there's no proof. Where's your proof? You haven't a shred. You haven't proved anything.
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Re: Diving Arsenal Players - The Least Shocking Admission Ev

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:38 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Bruce Rioja wrote:Doesn't prove anything, as I've mentioned. Prove it. That's what I asked you to do and you can't.
Prove what? That there is a 90% correlation between wage spending and success? I've just done that.

And I've never claimed anything else. I've proven exactly what I have claimed.

You haven't. You've got to show me academic evidence that spending is irrelevant to the chance of success in top flight football.
You haven't proved a fecking thing! You support Bolton Wanderers, is that correct? Has it not registered to you you how we've achieved beyond clubs that have spent considerably more on players? There's a pattern which supports you but there's no proof. Where's your proof? You haven't a shred. You haven't proved anything.
So you've got nothing then?

Another one bites the dust!

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Re: Diving Arsenal Players - The Least Shocking Admission Ev

Post by Bruce Rioja » Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:40 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Bruce Rioja wrote:
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Bruce Rioja wrote:Doesn't prove anything, as I've mentioned. Prove it. That's what I asked you to do and you can't.
Prove what? That there is a 90% correlation between wage spending and success? I've just done that.

And I've never claimed anything else. I've proven exactly what I have claimed.

You haven't. You've got to show me academic evidence that spending is irrelevant to the chance of success in top flight football.
You haven't proved a fecking thing! You support Bolton Wanderers, is that correct? Has it not registered to you you how we've achieved beyond clubs that have spent considerably more on players? There's a pattern which supports you but there's no proof. Where's your proof? You haven't a shred. You haven't proved anything.
So you've got nothing then?

Another one bites the dust!
What? The burden lies with you. IAre the questions too difficult for you again? Well, if you're too thick/soft to realise that........... hey ho. What a fecking cop out. :roll:

It's you that's bitten the dust.
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Re: Diving Arsenal Players - The Least Shocking Admission Ev

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:49 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Bruce Rioja wrote:
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Bruce Rioja wrote:Doesn't prove anything, as I've mentioned. Prove it. That's what I asked you to do and you can't.
Prove what? That there is a 90% correlation between wage spending and success? I've just done that.

And I've never claimed anything else. I've proven exactly what I have claimed.

You haven't. You've got to show me academic evidence that spending is irrelevant to the chance of success in top flight football.
You haven't proved a fecking thing! You support Bolton Wanderers, is that correct? Has it not registered to you you how we've achieved beyond clubs that have spent considerably more on players? There's a pattern which supports you but there's no proof. Where's your proof? You haven't a shred. You haven't proved anything.
So you've got nothing then?

Another one bites the dust!
What? The burden lies with you. IAre the questions too difficult for you again? Well, if you're too thick/soft to realise that........... hey ho. What a fecking cop out. :roll:

It's you that's bitten the dust.
I've proven the statistical correlation exists....which is all I ever needed to.

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Re: Diving Arsenal Players - The Least Shocking Admission Ev

Post by thebish » Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:48 pm

ner ner ner ner ner ner ner! :D
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Re: Diving Arsenal Players - The Least Shocking Admission Ev

Post by Hoboh » Thu Aug 18, 2016 10:22 pm

Lies, dammed lies and statistics.

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