Tonight's Football

There ARE other teams(we'd have no-one to play otherwise) and here's where all-comers can discuss the wider world of football......

Moderator: Zulus Thousand of em

User avatar
TANGODANCER
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 43133
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:35 pm
Location: Between the Regency and the Rubaiyat and forever trying to light penny candles from stars.

Re: Tonight's Football

Post by TANGODANCER » Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:30 pm

My comments on Southgate were based on the last couple of (obviously experimental) games, not his general managing ability which is fine. We will have to learn to play against Peaky Blinder bully boy sides and stop leaving holes at the back that a Sherman tank could get through. ( Take a lesson from Hungary)We also need somebody other than Saka out wide. Teams are fast, aggressive and fit today and we can only hope our manager is confident he knows the score.

I'd be having a word with Sterling too about his work ethic; he seems a bit reluctant to sally forth, and there's touch of live hand-grenade about his desire to part with the ball so quick. In previous games he was almost unplayable. Just comments.
Si Deus pro nobis, quis contra nos?

User avatar
Prufrock
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 23959
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:51 pm

Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Prufrock » Thu Jun 16, 2022 4:38 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:02 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:55 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:02 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:27 pm
Potter every day of the week for me. If not yeah, I'm struggling too.
I see him in the same mould as Gareth. Probably a brilliant coach and knows how to get the best out of players but are either genuine winners? Not sure.

Southgate was a Modric and penalty shootout away from winning. Closer than I expected.
I just don't see any evidence at all that Southgate is a brilliant coach. I don't think he gets the tactical side at all. He's Owen Coyle.

Potter on the other hand has got a great tune out of that Brighton squad, their main, really only, issue is scoring goals and that's almost all quality. Maupay and Welbeck...

I don't really buy the winner argument, not that it isn't important just that it's impossible to tell for the vast majority of managers who just don't have the option.

As I've said, I recognise this is largely opinions, but we should have beaten Croatia and Italy IMO. They're one of games, you can lose either, but I was never ever convinced we were set up to give us our best chance, rather than hanging in and hoping to get through. Sure we scored early in both games, but that can hardly be a disadvantage. Proper team keep the ball then and go on and win.

Croatia for example figured out we couldn't defend down both sides due to the shape, and passed us off the pitch. 2v1 down one side, through Modric and Rakitic to 2v1 on the other. From about the 15th minute. Was obvious, and we did nothing.
And I think it’s very easy to pick managers tactically. I mean we could go on all day about Evatt getting things wrong and not fixing them and give me a few months and I probably will.

But I’m not as convinced that it’s major tactical failings as just players not quite getting over the line in massive games against very good sides.

Two tournaments where we’ve done well and vastly better than any in the preceding two decades for me is evidence he’s doing more, much more, right than wrong.

Losing to Iceland then losing on penalties to Italy in a final is not an improvement but a monumental one.
Oh he's better than Roy sure. Roy was a disaster. Gareth isn't that, I'm just frustrated in that in peak Harry Kane we have a golden chance and should have gone that bit better.

I'm not sure e.g. losing a semi final (you should have won) is *vastly* better than losing two QF shoot outs either (especially when your opponents in the QF were Sweden not Portugal)

I'm not even sure getting to a final past Ukraine and Denmark meets "vast" either, tbh.
In a world that has decided
That it's going to lose its mind
Be more kind, my friends, try to be more kind.

User avatar
BWFC_Insane
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 36009
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:07 pm

Re: Tonight's Football

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Jun 16, 2022 6:06 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 4:38 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:02 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:55 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:02 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:27 pm
Potter every day of the week for me. If not yeah, I'm struggling too.
I see him in the same mould as Gareth. Probably a brilliant coach and knows how to get the best out of players but are either genuine winners? Not sure.

Southgate was a Modric and penalty shootout away from winning. Closer than I expected.
I just don't see any evidence at all that Southgate is a brilliant coach. I don't think he gets the tactical side at all. He's Owen Coyle.

Potter on the other hand has got a great tune out of that Brighton squad, their main, really only, issue is scoring goals and that's almost all quality. Maupay and Welbeck...

I don't really buy the winner argument, not that it isn't important just that it's impossible to tell for the vast majority of managers who just don't have the option.

As I've said, I recognise this is largely opinions, but we should have beaten Croatia and Italy IMO. They're one of games, you can lose either, but I was never ever convinced we were set up to give us our best chance, rather than hanging in and hoping to get through. Sure we scored early in both games, but that can hardly be a disadvantage. Proper team keep the ball then and go on and win.

Croatia for example figured out we couldn't defend down both sides due to the shape, and passed us off the pitch. 2v1 down one side, through Modric and Rakitic to 2v1 on the other. From about the 15th minute. Was obvious, and we did nothing.
And I think it’s very easy to pick managers tactically. I mean we could go on all day about Evatt getting things wrong and not fixing them and give me a few months and I probably will.

But I’m not as convinced that it’s major tactical failings as just players not quite getting over the line in massive games against very good sides.

Two tournaments where we’ve done well and vastly better than any in the preceding two decades for me is evidence he’s doing more, much more, right than wrong.

Losing to Iceland then losing on penalties to Italy in a final is not an improvement but a monumental one.
Oh he's better than Roy sure. Roy was a disaster. Gareth isn't that, I'm just frustrated in that in peak Harry Kane we have a golden chance and should have gone that bit better.

I'm not sure e.g. losing a semi final (you should have won) is *vastly* better than losing two QF shoot outs either (especially when your opponents in the QF were Sweden not Portugal)

I'm not even sure getting to a final past Ukraine and Denmark meets "vast" either, tbh.
Not sure I’m with you on ‘should have’. In both games we came up against teams with more experience and more proven quality. Modric, Rakitic etc. how many games were Italy unbeaten and their know how was immense. Both games we came close, especially against Italy. You could change manager and those games be entirely the same. Or worse.

You can cite peak Kane who if we are honest looked jaded by the end of each tournament but I’d say look at the midfield we had to get to the final. It was not great. Not by international standards. There are areas we are absolutely weaker in than others and I think we were up there in the euros right up there. And lost on penalties.

I’m not some massive Southgate fan. But most of the criticism of him seems harsh in the context of the failures England have endured over the years. Much of it also seems politically motivated which also raises the heckles. I don’t think he’s the best manager to ever walk the earth and there are better by far. But international football requires a different skill set to club stuff and I think he’s probably better suited than many.

User avatar
Prufrock
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 23959
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:51 pm

Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Prufrock » Thu Jun 16, 2022 10:59 pm

I totally accept "should have" is an opinion. But I do stand by it.

Your etc on Croatia is doing a lot. Modric, Rakitic and *maybe* Vrsjalko would have got into that England team. Perisic since converted to a WB but...yeah. We should have won that game. France won the final comfortably.

Italy, I said through the tournament and maintain they weren't great. They haven't qualified for the world cup. They had a very good manager and had a good run, but they were beatable. Swap managers in that final and I think England win. Absolutely nothing up top at all.

In both games we took an early lead and went back in our shell. He just doesn't *get it* in the teams he picks.. It's very Owen Coyle. Talk a good game and sometimes it comes off by fluke but he doesn't have the underlying understanding to know why.
In a world that has decided
That it's going to lose its mind
Be more kind, my friends, try to be more kind.

User avatar
BWFC_Insane
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 36009
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:07 pm

Re: Tonight's Football

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri Jun 17, 2022 12:08 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 10:59 pm
I totally accept "should have" is an opinion. But I do stand by it.

Your etc on Croatia is doing a lot. Modric, Rakitic and *maybe* Vrsjalko would have got into that England team. Perisic since converted to a WB but...yeah. We should have won that game. France won the final comfortably.

Italy, I said through the tournament and maintain they weren't great. They haven't qualified for the world cup. They had a very good manager and had a good run, but they were beatable. Swap managers in that final and I think England win. Absolutely nothing up top at all.

In both games we took an early lead and went back in our shell. He just doesn't *get it* in the teams he picks.. It's very Owen Coyle. Talk a good game and sometimes it comes off by fluke but he doesn't have the underlying understanding to know why.
We should have beaten Germany in 96 but didn’t. We were in effect an inch away. That’s international football. That’s tournament football. You can argue should have done this or that or tactics. I think you often overrate English players vs the teams we face. That Italy side were unbeaten in a ridiculous time for a reason. They had an outstanding defence, the experience and know how to get results. I said through the tournament that was what I feared more as England were a younger side with less know how and more players who would find the really biggest games more difficult than Italy and their levels of experience would.

The final for me was less about tactics and more about experience vs energy. England lacked the experience and know how but had energy, when that ran out it became tougher.

I think it’s obvious where Southgate’s limitations and blind spots are. But much of the criticism has turned out to be a bit overblown. Grealish a good example. Why isn’t he playing him…and we now know why, because he’s not the saviour people pretended he was going to be and certainly Guardiola came to the same conclusion about trusting him or not in big games.

I don’t even particularly like Southgate. I just think that having watched England a long time it’s unlikely there is anyone who would do significantly better. We went through a generation of supposed superstars and didn’t get close. We were a couple of penalty kicks away.

User avatar
Mar
Icon
Icon
Posts: 5123
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:23 pm
Location: Bolton

Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Mar » Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:58 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:36 pm
That Eriksson didn't get that group of players beyond the QF in 2006 marks him down as having been an absolute Charlatan, for me.

When Rooney got sent off I remember thinking - here we go, this is why Eriksson's England manager and I'm not. We're down to ten, we need someone with pace to burn who can tire their defenders out; this is where Eriksson gives us all a massive V and get's to say "I told you so" afterwards by bringing on the hitherto unheard of kid, Theo Walcott (selected for his pace, let's not forget).

Oh no, no, no. Eriksson took Joe Cole off and stuck Peter Crouch on instead. fecking genius :roll:
Bringing Theo Walcott should've been a sackable offence in itself. Clearly England managers shouldn't be left to their own devices and they should have someone helping them out to save them from their selves. Hoddle not bringing game changers like Gascoigne & Le Tissier, Eriksson brining Walcott, Capello's approach on locking down the players and now Southgate and his tactical deficiencies mid to late game.

I like Southgate. I like what he's done off the pitch and how he's brought the players, the media, etc. together. He's worked wonders, but he's not the be-all solution that we need. I would like him to acknowledge that and get some help tactically. No point everyone relying upon Southgate when the match starts. For me Southgate has done his job well before the game and we mustn't forget that.

Lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Bad results don't turn us bad overnight, but we are missing something, and without addressing that, i'm fairly certain the narrative that Southgate has worked ever so hard on will shift against him.

User avatar
Bruce Rioja
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 38742
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:19 pm
Location: Drifting into the arena of the unwell.

Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Bruce Rioja » Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:29 am

Mar wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:58 pm
Hoddle not bringing game changers like Gascoigne & Le Tissier
From memory, Hoddle decided to take Rob Lee instead of Gascoigne. Rob fecking Lee!
May the bridges I burn light your way

User avatar
TANGODANCER
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 43133
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:35 pm
Location: Between the Regency and the Rubaiyat and forever trying to light penny candles from stars.

Re: Tonight's Football

Post by TANGODANCER » Fri Jul 01, 2022 10:00 pm

England under 19s' won the Euros trophy, beating Israel 3-1 after extra time.. Not necessarily the best side, but that's football. Good side Israel so well done England for never giving us and taking our chances. :oyea:

England women beat Switzerland 3-1 last night in a friendly. Well done them too.
Si Deus pro nobis, quis contra nos?

Gooner Girl
Legend
Legend
Posts: 8560
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:18 pm
Location: Mid Sussex

Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Gooner Girl » Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:58 pm

Winning start for England at the euros tonight. Goal scored by none other then Gunner Beth Mead.

User avatar
TANGODANCER
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 43133
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:35 pm
Location: Between the Regency and the Rubaiyat and forever trying to light penny candles from stars.

Re: Tonight's Football

Post by TANGODANCER » Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:22 pm

Gooner Girl wrote:
Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:58 pm
Winning start for England at the euros tonight. Goal scored by none other then Gunner Beth Mead.

Beth Mead is usually good, ( apart from having four shots that Grandma Clampett could have saved) but I'm a bit less than enhanced by a few other things:

Against a physical side it's little use playing five feet nothing Fran Kirby. Should have put Jill Scott in midfield. Okay, she might have nutted the ref, but she's fully committed and can score goals.

Nikita Paris, though no giant, is useful on the wing. Lucy Bronze signing for Barcelona made me wonder if she has a no fifty-fifty ball challenge clause in her contract. Talented though she is, he doesn't seem to want the ball since she went Spanish. Not sure if she's a full back or a wing back, but she isn't shining right now. She made Millie work twice as hard by keep passing back.

Magic Millie Bright, on the other hand, is dazzling. Everything started from her and she attacked and defended like the star she is (she plays for Chelsea, by the way..) Player of the match for me. Go Millie.

England won 1-0, but certainly weren't dominant, although Mary Earps had to make only two decent saves all game, and will have to do better if they want the Euro trophy.
Si Deus pro nobis, quis contra nos?

boltonboris
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 13988
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:27 pm

Re: Tonight's Football

Post by boltonboris » Thu Jul 07, 2022 5:11 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:22 pm
Gooner Girl wrote:
Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:58 pm
Winning start for England at the euros tonight. Goal scored by none other then Gunner Beth Mead.

Beth Mead is usually good, ( apart from having four shots that Grandma Clampett could have saved) but I'm a bit less than enhanced by a few other things:

Against a physical side it's little use playing five feet nothing Fran Kirby. Should have put Jill Scott in midfield. Okay, she might have nutted the ref, but she's fully committed and can score goals.

Nikita Paris, though no giant, is useful on the wing. Lucy Bronze signing for Barcelona made me wonder if she has a no fifty-fifty ball challenge clause in her contract. Talented though she is, he doesn't seem to want the ball since she went Spanish. Not sure if she's a full back or a wing back, but she isn't shining right now. She made Millie work twice as hard by keep passing back. Probably just a temporary lull as she's usually a classy player.

Magic Millie Bright, on the other hand, is dazzling. Everything started from her and she attacked and defended like the star she is (she plays for Chelsea, by the way..) Player of the match for me. Go Millie.

England won 1-0, but certainly weren't dominant, although Mary Earps had to make only two decent saves all game, and will have to do better if they want the Euro trophy.
I went watching this and apart from 3 minutes at the start and the last 3 minutes, I thought England were well on top. Final let them down after good play and wing-play.

Amazin how much more the ball is in play than the mens game.

I do believe though, that they should play on slightly smaller pitches (puts tin hat on)
"I've got the ball now. It's a bit worn, but I've got it"

User avatar
TANGODANCER
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 43133
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:35 pm
Location: Between the Regency and the Rubaiyat and forever trying to light penny candles from stars.

Re: Tonight's Football

Post by TANGODANCER » Fri Jul 08, 2022 10:44 pm

Watched Spain and Germany win their Women's Euro games against Finland and Denmark respectively. Both well impressive and England will have to play well to get past either later. Both sides adopted aggressive rough-house bullying tactics and we'll have to do the same if we want to win. Wolf-pack defending and high energy attacking are the order of the day. Faint-heart never won fair lady...Oh, er is that right? :shock:
Si Deus pro nobis, quis contra nos?

User avatar
TANGODANCER
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 43133
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:35 pm
Location: Between the Regency and the Rubaiyat and forever trying to light penny candles from stars.

Re: Tonight's Football

Post by TANGODANCER » Sun Jul 10, 2022 8:49 pm

Denmark and Iceland drew 1-1 in the Women's Euros. France running rings round the Italians; 4-0 up at half time.
Si Deus pro nobis, quis contra nos?

User avatar
TANGODANCER
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 43133
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:35 pm
Location: Between the Regency and the Rubaiyat and forever trying to light penny candles from stars.

Re: Tonight's Football

Post by TANGODANCER » Sun Jul 10, 2022 10:03 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Sun Jul 10, 2022 8:49 pm
Denmark and Iceland drew 1-1 in the Women's Euros. France running rings round the Italians; 4-0 up at half time.
Finished 5-1 as the Italians played better, but not well enough. Worth watching for Valentina Giacinti. First saw her 3/4 year ago? . Lovely. :D
Si Deus pro nobis, quis contra nos?

User avatar
Harry Genshaw
Legend
Legend
Posts: 9097
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:47 pm
Location: Half dead in Panama

Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Harry Genshaw » Sun Jul 10, 2022 10:26 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Sun Jul 10, 2022 10:03 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Sun Jul 10, 2022 8:49 pm
Denmark and Iceland drew 1-1 in the Women's Euros. France running rings round the Italians; 4-0 up at half time.
Finished 5-1 as the Italians played better, but not well enough. Worth watching for Valentina Giacinti. First saw her 3/4 year ago? . Lovely. :D
Don't be shoving your heterosexual lifestyle down my throat :D
"Get your feet off the furniture you Oxbridge tw*t. You're not on a feckin punt now you know"

User avatar
TANGODANCER
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 43133
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:35 pm
Location: Between the Regency and the Rubaiyat and forever trying to light penny candles from stars.

Re: Tonight's Football

Post by TANGODANCER » Sun Jul 10, 2022 10:57 pm

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Sun Jul 10, 2022 10:26 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Sun Jul 10, 2022 10:03 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Sun Jul 10, 2022 8:49 pm
Denmark and Iceland drew 1-1 in the Women's Euros. France running rings round the Italians; 4-0 up at half time.
Finished 5-1 as the Italians played better, but not well enough. Worth watching for Valentina Giacinti. First saw her 3/4 year ago? . Lovely. :D
Don't be shoving your heterosexual lifestyle down my throat :D
:lol:
Si Deus pro nobis, quis contra nos?

User avatar
TANGODANCER
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 43133
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:35 pm
Location: Between the Regency and the Rubaiyat and forever trying to light penny candles from stars.

Re: Tonight's Football

Post by TANGODANCER » Mon Jul 11, 2022 7:39 pm

England v Norway. What's past counts for naught, it's about now. Come on Lionesses' .
Si Deus pro nobis, quis contra nos?

User avatar
TANGODANCER
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 43133
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:35 pm
Location: Between the Regency and the Rubaiyat and forever trying to light penny candles from stars.

Re: Tonight's Football

Post by TANGODANCER » Mon Jul 11, 2022 8:49 pm

Six nil up at half time. Dazzling display by the Lionesses. Wasn't sure how good Norway were, but... :oyea: :oyea: :oyea: :oyea: :oyea: :oyea:
Si Deus pro nobis, quis contra nos?

User avatar
TANGODANCER
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 43133
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:35 pm
Location: Between the Regency and the Rubaiyat and forever trying to light penny candles from stars.

Re: Tonight's Football

Post by TANGODANCER » Mon Jul 11, 2022 10:00 pm

Finished 8-0 at a canter. Mary Earp, the England keeper touched the ball once second half. We won't score eight past Spain, France or Germany, but keep focus and play like this and anything's possible. Well done. :oyea:
Si Deus pro nobis, quis contra nos?

Gooner Girl
Legend
Legend
Posts: 8560
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:18 pm
Location: Mid Sussex

Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Gooner Girl » Mon Jul 11, 2022 11:07 pm

I actually missed it as at the pub this evening but I gather it was a bit of a drubbing. Another 3 for Mead. Tougher matches to come. Son wanted to go to this one as in Brighton but we couldn’t get tickets.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 34 guests