Tonight's Football

There ARE other teams(we'd have no-one to play otherwise) and here's where all-comers can discuss the wider world of football......

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun May 29, 2022 6:08 pm

Utterly abysmal from VAR again in the play off final. Clear pen not given to Huddersfield.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun May 29, 2022 6:12 pm

Two clear penalties now. This is genuinely ridiculous.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by truewhite15 » Sun May 29, 2022 6:16 pm

Not often I venture onto here, but here goes.

There have been two huge VAR calls in the last two days that I just do not understand in the least. I don't profess to be an expert on the rules of the game, but in 99% of cases I can see why a decision is made, even if I dont agree with it.

But last night, Benzema had a goal ruled out for offside. Yes, he was in an offside position, but the final two touches before the ball got to him were both by Liverpool players - one sending it away from Benzema and the other sending the ball straight to him. And yet, an offside call was made based on some nonsense about the Liverpool touches not being deliberate. It seemed a perfectly legitimate goal to me.

And then today, Toffolo has been booked for simulation having gone over in the box under a challenge from Colback. The replay clearly shows that Colback took Toffolo's foot from under him. Not only does VAR not give the penalty, the commentators are even saying it wasn't clear and obvious. But to me, it looked about as clear a penalty as you're likely to see.

Am I suddenly watching a different sport or something?

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun May 29, 2022 6:20 pm

truewhite15 wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 6:16 pm
the commentators are even saying it wasn't clear and obvious. But to me, it looked about as clear a penalty as you're likely to see.

Am I suddenly watching a different sport or something?
The commentators were what got me. No idea what they were watching. Clear as day penalty. "Very little contact"....he hit him hard enough to send one leg into the other. It's just an obvious foul.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun May 29, 2022 6:34 pm

All that being said, Forest are a club with genuine history and it'll be fun to see them back at the top table.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Prufrock » Sun May 29, 2022 6:42 pm

The one last night depends entirely on whether Valverde touched it (looked like he did to me, then on another like he didn't).

The deliberate playing of the ball thing is a nonsense and shouldn't exist, but with or without it that should be offside assuming Valverde touched it. It's the same as a shot coming back off the keeper when someone is offside.

The two just now are ridiculous. The first is as clear a penalty as you will ever see, and the second one is a pen too. I don't know what "clear and obvious" can mean if it isn't that.

And I'm convinced it's made things actively worse. Refs shy away from decisions because they like VAR is there, but then VAR does nothing.

Commentary was a nonsense on the first one. It's clear as day. Laughed out loud when they said check over. Thank feck that wasn't us.
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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun May 29, 2022 6:47 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 6:42 pm
And I'm convinced it's made things actively worse. Refs shy away from decisions because they like VAR is there, but then VAR does nothing.
If the ref hadn't booked him for diving they'd have given a pen. They cover for each other. It was such a bad call that they wanted to back him.

I'm sick to death of English officials. I wanted Forest to go up, but that was awful.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Harry Genshaw » Sun May 29, 2022 6:51 pm

Poor decisions but Huddersfield's approach to the game served them right, they're bloody awful to watch.
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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun May 29, 2022 6:54 pm

I thought the Benzema one was ok as it’s the rules. A ridiculous rule, but a rule. And they applied the rule correctly. And as said above I’m not sure it was clear whether VV touched it first…so yea…fair decision.

Today though I’m astounded. It looked a penalty in real time. And then on video it’s clear as day. The second one is also a penalty but they didn’t even bother reviewing it. Shocking.

A game with so much riding on it and video review only highlights how much of a failure it is.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by truewhite15 » Sun May 29, 2022 7:01 pm

But even if Valverde touched it, Konate got the second touch to push it away from Benzema. The only reason it got to the Madrid striker is because it then came off the knee of Fabinho. It just don't understand it at all. If it wasn't for the second Liverpool touch it's going up the opposite end of the pitch, so how can it be offside?

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun May 29, 2022 8:14 pm

truewhite15 wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 7:01 pm
But even if Valverde touched it, Konate got the second touch to push it away from Benzema. The only reason it got to the Madrid striker is because it then came off the knee of Fabinho. It just don't understand it at all. If it wasn't for the second Liverpool touch it's going up the opposite end of the pitch, so how can it be offside?
IF valverde touches it then he’s offside as he plays it forward regardless of what happens then.

The rules on offside are you are offside if the opposition accidentally play the ball…so whether you like that rule or not it was correctly applied.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Worthy4England » Sun May 29, 2022 8:14 pm

I don't think anyone is arguing the striker is in an offside position if his team mate passes to him? All the rule is saying (roughly) is that unless the defender has more intent around his actions than an involuntary deflection, then he's still offside....

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun May 29, 2022 8:34 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 8:14 pm
I don't think anyone is arguing the striker is in an offside position if his team mate passes to him? All the rule is saying (roughly) is that unless the defender has more intent around his actions than an involuntary deflection, then he's still offside....
I think the rule is that you are not offside if the opposition deliberately play the ball. If a defender with nobody hears falls over and knocks the ball to you in the process you are offside (if in an offside position) regardless of anything else or the lack of involvement from any of your teammates.

That’s my understanding.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Bruce Rioja » Sun May 29, 2022 8:41 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 5:33 pm
Bruce Rioja wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 4:53 pm
If that we're true then surely Madrid's goalkeeper wouldn't have been as busy as he was.
How many times in the game did you think, "Oh my god, how have they not scored there?"

Once? Twice?

Madrid played them so well that they first subbed Diaz off and then changed their shape to try and force it.
Liverpool had 24 shots, nine of which were on target. The highlights alone show Courtouis making seven saves from on-target Liverpool attempts.

I'd say that the statistics rather pooh pooh your opinion that the Madrid defenders had Liverpool's attackers on a butty.
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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun May 29, 2022 8:50 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 8:41 pm
Liverpool had 24 shots, nine of which were on target. The highlights alone show Courtouis making seven saves from on-target Liverpool attempts.

I'd say that the statistics rather pooh pooh your opinion that the Madrid defenders had Liverpool's attackers on a butty.
It's about shot management and how likely Liverpool are to score from those positions. I felt Real were pretty comfortable for most of the game, which is very impressive against Liverpool.

As I say, Diaz was subbed off. Salah barely showed up. Mane was the most useful of the three, but still didn't excel. We're talking about THE front three in Europe right now looking poor. That means the defenders have done a very tidy job.

Liverpool had more of the ball, more shots etc - but they were not particularly dangerous. Courtois was expected to make saves and did so. As I say, he maybe made two that required a quality goalkeeper.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Prufrock » Sun May 29, 2022 8:53 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 8:34 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 8:14 pm
I don't think anyone is arguing the striker is in an offside position if his team mate passes to him? All the rule is saying (roughly) is that unless the defender has more intent around his actions than an involuntary deflection, then he's still offside....
I think the rule is that you are not offside if the opposition deliberately play the ball. If a defender with nobody hears falls over and knocks the ball to you in the process you are offside (if in an offside position) regardless of anything else or the lack of involvement from any of your teammates.

That’s my understanding.
Not regardless of anything from your teammates. For the "deliberately played the ball thing" to be relevant you have to be offside to start with. Imagine Valverde gets a shot away there, Alisson saves it and it rebounds to Benzema. He's offside there, always has been, and rightly so. Or if a shot had just deflected off Fabinho. They brought in a stupid rule a couple of years ago where you're now *not* offside if instead of deflecting it, a defender is deemed to have deliberately played the ball. So if Fabinho had got in there and was trying to roll it out for a corner, or play it back to Alisson, it wouldn't be offside. Which is dumb, IMO.

Last night they were checking two things. First of all whether Valverde touched it, if he didn't there is no way Benzema could be offside (though the way numbnuts Walton explained it that wasn't clear), secondly, once happy Valverde had touched it, they had to decide if either Konate or Fabinho had deliberately played the ball, rather than a tackle or block. If they had, it wouldn't be offside.
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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun May 29, 2022 11:25 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 8:53 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 8:34 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 8:14 pm
I don't think anyone is arguing the striker is in an offside position if his team mate passes to him? All the rule is saying (roughly) is that unless the defender has more intent around his actions than an involuntary deflection, then he's still offside....
I think the rule is that you are not offside if the opposition deliberately play the ball. If a defender with nobody hears falls over and knocks the ball to you in the process you are offside (if in an offside position) regardless of anything else or the lack of involvement from any of your teammates.

That’s my understanding.
Not regardless of anything from your teammates. For the "deliberately played the ball thing" to be relevant you have to be offside to start with. Imagine Valverde gets a shot away there, Alisson saves it and it rebounds to Benzema. He's offside there, always has been, and rightly so. Or if a shot had just deflected off Fabinho. They brought in a stupid rule a couple of years ago where you're now *not* offside if instead of deflecting it, a defender is deemed to have deliberately played the ball. So if Fabinho had got in there and was trying to roll it out for a corner, or play it back to Alisson, it wouldn't be offside. Which is dumb, IMO.

Last night they were checking two things. First of all whether Valverde touched it, if he didn't there is no way Benzema could be offside (though the way numbnuts Walton explained it that wasn't clear), secondly, once happy Valverde had touched it, they had to decide if either Konate or Fabinho had deliberately played the ball, rather than a tackle or block. If they had, it wouldn't be offside.
This explains it as per my understanding and I’m not sure you are correct. I think based on the rules it doesn’t matter if Valverde touches it or not since the argument is Fabinho didn’t deliberately play the ball towards KB.

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/soccer/ ... in56rewfc2

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by truewhite15 » Sun May 29, 2022 11:47 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 11:25 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 8:53 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 8:34 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 8:14 pm
I don't think anyone is arguing the striker is in an offside position if his team mate passes to him? All the rule is saying (roughly) is that unless the defender has more intent around his actions than an involuntary deflection, then he's still offside....
I think the rule is that you are not offside if the opposition deliberately play the ball. If a defender with nobody hears falls over and knocks the ball to you in the process you are offside (if in an offside position) regardless of anything else or the lack of involvement from any of your teammates.

That’s my understanding.
Not regardless of anything from your teammates. For the "deliberately played the ball thing" to be relevant you have to be offside to start with. Imagine Valverde gets a shot away there, Alisson saves it and it rebounds to Benzema. He's offside there, always has been, and rightly so. Or if a shot had just deflected off Fabinho. They brought in a stupid rule a couple of years ago where you're now *not* offside if instead of deflecting it, a defender is deemed to have deliberately played the ball. So if Fabinho had got in there and was trying to roll it out for a corner, or play it back to Alisson, it wouldn't be offside. Which is dumb, IMO.

Last night they were checking two things. First of all whether Valverde touched it, if he didn't there is no way Benzema could be offside (though the way numbnuts Walton explained it that wasn't clear), secondly, once happy Valverde had touched it, they had to decide if either Konate or Fabinho had deliberately played the ball, rather than a tackle or block. If they had, it wouldn't be offside.
This explains it as per my understanding and I’m not sure you are correct. I think based on the rules it doesn’t matter if Valverde touches it or not since the argument is Fabinho didn’t deliberately play the ball towards KB.

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/soccer/ ... in56rewfc2
Which, if so, is perhaps the most absurd thing I've ever heard. So Benzema, even having been the last Real player to have touched the ball, would have been deemed offside in that situation even if all his team mates were having a piss-up in the other 18-yard box?

The law, or this specific interpretation of it, is wrong. It took two separate interventions from Liverpool players after the last Real touch for the ball to fall to Benzema. Take either of those interventions out, and the ball simply doesn't land with him.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by LeverEnd » Mon May 30, 2022 12:17 am

Toffolo was starting his dive before the contact was made. feck him. Lucky for the defender though.
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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Prufrock » Mon May 30, 2022 1:07 am

truewhite15 wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 11:47 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 11:25 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 8:53 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 8:34 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 8:14 pm
I don't think anyone is arguing the striker is in an offside position if his team mate passes to him? All the rule is saying (roughly) is that unless the defender has more intent around his actions than an involuntary deflection, then he's still offside....
I think the rule is that you are not offside if the opposition deliberately play the ball. If a defender with nobody hears falls over and knocks the ball to you in the process you are offside (if in an offside position) regardless of anything else or the lack of involvement from any of your teammates.

That’s my understanding.
Not regardless of anything from your teammates. For the "deliberately played the ball thing" to be relevant you have to be offside to start with. Imagine Valverde gets a shot away there, Alisson saves it and it rebounds to Benzema. He's offside there, always has been, and rightly so. Or if a shot had just deflected off Fabinho. They brought in a stupid rule a couple of years ago where you're now *not* offside if instead of deflecting it, a defender is deemed to have deliberately played the ball. So if Fabinho had got in there and was trying to roll it out for a corner, or play it back to Alisson, it wouldn't be offside. Which is dumb, IMO.

Last night they were checking two things. First of all whether Valverde touched it, if he didn't there is no way Benzema could be offside (though the way numbnuts Walton explained it that wasn't clear), secondly, once happy Valverde had touched it, they had to decide if either Konate or Fabinho had deliberately played the ball, rather than a tackle or block. If they had, it wouldn't be offside.
This explains it as per my understanding and I’m not sure you are correct. I think based on the rules it doesn’t matter if Valverde touches it or not since the argument is Fabinho didn’t deliberately play the ball towards KB.

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/soccer/ ... in56rewfc2
Which, if so, is perhaps the most absurd thing I've ever heard. So Benzema, even having been the last Real player to have touched the ball, would have been deemed offside in that situation even if all his team mates were having a piss-up in the other 18-yard box?

The law, or this specific interpretation of it, is wrong. It took two separate interventions from Liverpool players after the last Real touch for the ball to fall to Benzema. Take either of those interventions out, and the ball simply doesn't land with him.
No, Valverde has to have touched it. Everything in that article is on the assumption that he did.

Current offside rule (the selective quoting by eg Walton and that article is confusing people):

"A player in an offside position at the moment the ball is played or touched by a team-mate is only penalised on becoming involved in active play by:

interfering with play by playing or touching a ball passed or touched by a team-mate or

interfering with an opponent by:

-preventing an opponent from playing or being able to play the ball by clearly obstructing the opponent’s line of vision or

-challenging an opponent for the ball or

-clearly attempting to play a ball which is close when this action impacts on an opponent or
making an obvious action which clearly impacts on the ability of an opponent to play the ball
or

gaining an advantage by playing the ball or interfering with an opponent when it has:
rebounded or been deflected off the goalpost, crossbar or an opponent
been deliberately saved by any opponent

A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball, including by deliberate handball, is not considered to have gained an advantage, unless it was a deliberate save by any opponent
"

If Valverde doesn't touch it he can't be offside. I mean, obviously, though I can see how the coverage hasn't helped. First Valverde touches it (first condition, in bold). Then Benzema is offside if he gains an advantage if he plays the ball, which he does. But the final para says he doesn't gain an advantage (so isn't offside) if a Liverpool player has deliberately played the ball, which they decided he didn't.

Your point is different, and has the virtue of making sense even if I don't agree with it. Benzema is offside when Valverde touches it. That's always been the case as far as I can remember. This new added bit (they final para) might have saved them if Fabinho had meant to pass to someone but Benzema had cut it out.
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