Tonight's Football

There ARE other teams(we'd have no-one to play otherwise) and here's where all-comers can discuss the wider world of football......

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu May 05, 2022 12:26 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 12:07 pm
Not really sure where to start on that, to be honest.

They could have bought Kane if they'd wanted him. They didn't want to pay the asking price when Haaland was available a year later.

You're trying to make a point in your favour, but it's actually an example of what I'm talking about - transfer strategy over years and not months.

Your point about Grealish gets kind of muddled. You said they didn't need him and then say he's flopped because he's not played as much as you might expect - but those two things are related. Guardiola takes time to get players used to how City play and Grealish was signed to facilitate a striker who isn't yet in being. He's currently behind forwards who have already been fully integrated into Pep's system. It's precisely the same thing Pep has been saying about Foden. Not that he isn't good enough, but that he needs to get used to the tactical expectations at City.

With Haaland likely to rock up, that will be different. They do need him and his integration will therefore be much quicker. Grealish and Haaland have been bought to play together. If they don't, then people can start talking about them wasting money on Grealish.

As things stand City are in pole to win the league one only fell short of a CL final by 2 minutes. Apparently that's a disaster and reveals a fatal flaw in their whole approach.

If your entire thing is that Grealish was too expensive. Yes. He's English. Teams have to have English players to meet the regs, so they pay way more than they might if they were foreign.
I couldn’t disagree more and I think you are over selling transfer strategy. If the transfer strategy is to pay three times what a bang average middle lower premiership table (at best) player is worth so you don’t have to sign anyone else for 6 years then that’s a success. But it patently isn’t that.

City had a chance once again to get over the line in the champions league and couldn’t. And the main reason they couldn’t is once again they hadn’t brought the world class players in the two key positions they could use one on nights like last night.

I’m not a city fan so frankly I’m not all that interested in the who is responsible of whether they are satisfied or any of that stuff.

Grealish was a mistake. You can talk about ‘next year’ all you want but they didn’t spend that money to wait another year for winning the big one that would propel the club to European heights. That’s what they want. And maybe they will sign Haaland and maybe they will get there next season. But if they don’t they’ve missed an absolutely golden opportunity this year. One that might never be quite so good.

Football is a series of fleeting opportunities that don’t last forever. In the best circumstances they might last a mini generation. But they will eventually fade out.

The bottom line is Grealish doesn’t have the quality to play in a side in the champions league. He didn’t, doesn’t have that ability, never showed it. And Guardiola might have got one wrong. I’m not a city fan so again I have no opinion as to what that means for them. He’s a fine manager. But it was a bad call.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by GhostoftheBok » Thu May 05, 2022 12:42 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 12:09 pm
I'm not sure about this bit! I think they might have been pretty pleased if they won it, maybe even in isolation, but I doubt anyone set the sole goal of "win the CL"....
The goal at City is to have a squad every season that had a chance of winning whatever competitions they are in and to actually win them over time.

City have never done anything in the market with the view of "We have to do it this year."

Chelsea? Yes. Utd? Yes (hahahahaha!). City? It's just not how they view squad building.

They are trying to avoid exactly what Insane described "fleeting moments" where you have a narrow window for success before a project ends. They want a squad that has settled, long term assets in it. It's what their entire recruitment set up is about.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu May 05, 2022 12:50 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 12:42 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 12:09 pm
I'm not sure about this bit! I think they might have been pretty pleased if they won it, maybe even in isolation, but I doubt anyone set the sole goal of "win the CL"....
The goal at City is to have a squad every season that had a chance of winning whatever competitions they are in and to actually win them over time.

City have never done anything in the market with the view of "We have to do it this year."

Chelsea? Yes. Utd? Yes (hahahahaha!). City? It's just not how they view squad building.

They are trying to avoid exactly what Insane described "fleeting moments" where you have a narrow window for success before a project ends. They want a squad that has settled, long term assets in it. It's what their entire recruitment set up is about.
You can’t avoid it. It’s impossible to avoid it. No side in history has avoided it. Short of rigging the game you enjoy it whilst you are on top but it will not ever, ever last forever.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by GhostoftheBok » Thu May 05, 2022 1:05 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 12:50 pm
You can’t avoid it. It’s impossible to avoid it. No side in history has avoided it. Short of rigging the game you enjoy it whilst you are on top but it will not ever, ever last forever.
They believe they can. Bayern believe they can.

It's increasingly how clubs are going. You recruit a squad to a pattern and you phase through players. You then recruit a coach for the squad, not players for the coach.

At the minute they seem to be doing pretty well.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu May 05, 2022 4:54 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 1:05 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 12:50 pm
You can’t avoid it. It’s impossible to avoid it. No side in history has avoided it. Short of rigging the game you enjoy it whilst you are on top but it will not ever, ever last forever.
They believe they can. Bayern believe they can.

It's increasingly how clubs are going. You recruit a squad to a pattern and you phase through players. You then recruit a coach for the squad, not players for the coach.

At the minute they seem to be doing pretty well.
At some point the money will run out. Or they have a bad managerial pick. And they will drop. You only need look at Man Utd. Best resourced side in history with two decades of unparalleled success. They thought it would never end. It did.

Football is about moments. It always will be. You can plan long term and should. But if you don’t take the opportunities as they come round you never will. If city fans had a choice between Kane and winning the champions league this season and three more years dominating the league they’d rightly choose the former.

They are of course doing exceptionally well and are a superb side. It’s a question for them of what could have been.

If bolton miss out on promotion next season for the lack of one type of player having signed others who were for the future but didn’t make an impact and suddenly the league gets harder with some big spenders the next season you can talk about long term plans. But in football it’s the here and now. If you miss out in the here and now tomorrow is unpredictable.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by GhostoftheBok » Thu May 05, 2022 5:13 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 4:54 pm
At some point the money will run out. Or they have a bad managerial pick. And they will drop. You only need look at Man Utd. Best resourced side in history with two decades of unparalleled success. They thought it would never end. It did.

If bolton miss out on promotion next season...
Like I said, Utd's transfer policy is of the type you think all clubs should follow and they're in the crap. City, Bayern and others believe they have a model that will make them less susceptible to the natural ebb and flow the game has traditionally had as coaches come in, mould a side to achieve set goals and then transition to a new project.

Bolton and City are utterly incomparable. League One transfers are nothing at all like those at elite clubs. The decision-making and the view of what a footballer is to a club are radically different. It's a really, really unhelpful way to try and look at City's transfer strategy.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu May 05, 2022 6:02 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 5:13 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 4:54 pm
At some point the money will run out. Or they have a bad managerial pick. And they will drop. You only need look at Man Utd. Best resourced side in history with two decades of unparalleled success. They thought it would never end. It did.

If bolton miss out on promotion next season...
Like I said, Utd's transfer policy is of the type you think all clubs should follow and they're in the crap. City, Bayern and others believe they have a model that will make them less susceptible to the natural ebb and flow the game has traditionally had as coaches come in, mould a side to achieve set goals and then transition to a new project.

Bolton and City are utterly incomparable. League One transfers are nothing at all like those at elite clubs. The decision-making and the view of what a footballer is to a club are radically different. It's a really, really unhelpful way to try and look at City's transfer strategy.
I mean good luck to them. But whatever you want to make out the plan is you can’t justify signing Grealish for the sort of fee they did. It’s just signing a player who isn’t good enough to play for you for far too much doesn’t help them in any way.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Worthy4England » Thu May 05, 2022 6:06 pm

I think we can live with deficiency's that exist with a 1st or 2nd place finish next year (so the same sort as has been suggested City has). I think it becomes more of a struggle to live with finishing 3rd - 7th. And would become much more of a test for the "project" finishing below 7th - given the target(s) Evatt has mentioned.

This year, despite us being "the best side in the Division" :-) my expectation didn't really move from 8th - 12th and we managed that. Had we been 13th or below, I might have started getting belligerent.

Next year - subject to how transfers pan out, I think we'll absolutely be targeting promotion, but that doesn't mean we won't have the odd brain-fart game. Every team has them, no matter who's on the playing staff. City's heaviest loss of the season was last night... :-)

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu May 05, 2022 6:33 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 6:06 pm
I think we can live with deficiency's that exist with a 1st or 2nd place finish next year (so the same sort as has been suggested City has). I think it becomes more of a struggle to live with finishing 3rd - 7th. And would become much more of a test for the "project" finishing below 7th - given the target(s) Evatt has mentioned.

This year, despite us being "the best side in the Division" :-) my expectation didn't really move from 8th - 12th and we managed that. Had we been 13th or below, I might have started getting belligerent.

Next year - subject to how transfers pan out, I think we'll absolutely be targeting promotion, but that doesn't mean we won't have the odd brain-fart game. Every team has them, no matter who's on the playing staff. City's heaviest loss of the season was last night... :-)
You can have whatever deficiencies you want if we win the league next season. But I’d counter that there are some deficiencies that will make doing that very hard.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Worthy4England » Thu May 05, 2022 6:43 pm

Yeah - when you look at the cluster at the top, they lost 8,9,10 to our 15. We lost 10 games before Jan, I think, and a further 2 on Jan 1 and Jan 11 - so despite a couple of "bad uns" after early Jan, like Burton (A), we were sorta ok after Jan...

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Worthy4England » Thu May 05, 2022 9:44 pm

Wycombe did to MKD what they did to us. Fair play to them, deserved winners on the night.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri May 06, 2022 9:19 am

Worthy4England wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 9:44 pm
Wycombe did to MKD what they did to us. Fair play to them, deserved winners on the night.
Very impressive I thought. Different game at fake Wimbledon of course but Wycombe defensively can be hard to break down.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by GhostoftheBok » Fri May 06, 2022 9:43 am

Hard to get away from the fact they played 20 minutes 10 v 11, though.

Wycombe were decent in their way, but MK were in the game. At that stage they were separated by a corner.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by GhostoftheBok » Fri May 06, 2022 9:50 am

What I will say is it's now really hard to see MK coming back. Wycombe are so well organised and really good at imposing their game on the opposition.

They're miles better at home than away, but even so.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Worthy4England » Fri May 06, 2022 10:18 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Fri May 06, 2022 9:43 am
Hard to get away from the fact they played 20 minutes 10 v 11, though.

Wycombe were decent in their way, but MK were in the game. At that stage they were separated by a corner.
Wycombe were on top from around minute 10, imo tbf. Did MKD muster a save in the first half? I like MKD, they'd be my preference to go up, but Wycombe did 'em. Tackled tough, the lad that got sent off, they pulled him into losing his head (although I wouldn't have given him a card for the first one) and the second was a decent interplay on the edge of the box.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by GhostoftheBok » Fri May 06, 2022 10:20 am

Worthy4England wrote:
Fri May 06, 2022 10:18 am
Wycombe were on top from around minute 10, imo tbf. Did MKD muster a save in the first half? I like MKD, they'd be my preference to go up, but Wycombe did 'em. Tackled tough, the lad that got sent off, they pulled him into losing his head (although I wouldn't have given him a card for the first one) and the second was a decent interplay on the edge of the box.
Oh, I agree with all that; but I think if it's 11 v 11 it ends 1-0 and MK go into the home leg far more confident than they will now.

Wycombe absolutely deserved the result.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Worthy4England » Fri May 06, 2022 10:22 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Fri May 06, 2022 10:20 am
Worthy4England wrote:
Fri May 06, 2022 10:18 am
Wycombe were on top from around minute 10, imo tbf. Did MKD muster a save in the first half? I like MKD, they'd be my preference to go up, but Wycombe did 'em. Tackled tough, the lad that got sent off, they pulled him into losing his head (although I wouldn't have given him a card for the first one) and the second was a decent interplay on the edge of the box.
Oh, I agree with all that; but I think if it's 11 v 11 it ends 1-0 and MK go into the home leg far more confident than they will now.

Wycombe absolutely deserved the result.
Yeah, but on another day, the one that hit the underside of the bar goes in and you're still 2-0. Had it been Bolton rather than MKD, I wouldn't have been complaining about the result....(Mind I might have mentioned set piece defending and a few other bits) :-)

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri May 06, 2022 10:29 am

The result was an accurate reflection of the game and the relative performances. Also tactically Aisnworth got it right as he very often does.

I’d describe MK Dons as powderpuff last night.

Second leg it can turn around but needs MK Dons to do a lot more on Sunday for that to happen.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by GhostoftheBok » Fri May 06, 2022 11:20 am

Wycombe have an away blip in them, but they're likely to score and if they do you'd have to think they'll not concede 3-4.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Worthy4England » Fri May 06, 2022 11:33 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Fri May 06, 2022 11:20 am
Wycombe have an away blip in them, but they're likely to score and if they do you'd have to think they'll not concede 3-4.
Aye - but they were still 4th in the "Away" table, they only lost 5 away all season...with MKD 9th in the "Home" table, they also lost 5 at home. Wycombe have lost 2 at MKD this season, both by an odd goal...

So taking everything into consideration, I'm non the wiser. :-)

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