Tonight's Football

There ARE other teams(we'd have no-one to play otherwise) and here's where all-comers can discuss the wider world of football......

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Bruce Rioja
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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Bruce Rioja » Thu May 27, 2021 11:00 am

I have one of these rather inexplicable dislikes of David de Gea. As soon as I see him I long for him to make an absolute tvvat of himself. I don't rate him as a keeper anywhere near as highly as he gets praised, and last night I even had that feeling of 'yes, fecking chuffed, you nice person' when he missed his penalty :D
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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Burnden Paddock » Thu May 27, 2021 1:21 pm

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 8:42 am
Great to see them lose, even if my coverage of the penalties was watching some butch lass on SSN watching the game, and then supposedly telling us viewers what was going on. This consisted of "Go on Luke/Fred/Marcus" etc. How much she was paid for such expert analysis, one can only wonder. She looked crestfallen when Utd lost though. Cheered me up even more!!
You should have heard the wholly independent comments of Ferdinand, Scholes and Hargreaves! :roll:

Scholes pre-match - 'Villarreal finished 7th in a very poor La Liga. This should be a comfortable win for United.' :lol:

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu May 27, 2021 1:37 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 11:00 am
I have one of these rather inexplicable dislikes of David de Gea. As soon as I see him I long for him to make an absolute tvvat of himself. I don't rate him as a keeper anywhere near as highly as he gets praised, and last night I even had that feeling of 'yes, fecking chuffed, you nice person' when he missed his penalty :D
I think he's pretty rubbish and I've no idea why he's rated so highly. The Villareal keeper didn't seem very good either.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat May 29, 2021 9:19 pm

Guardiola has had an absolute mare tonight. Playing folk out of position, no holding player in midfield. No idea what he’s thinking.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Prufrock » Sat May 29, 2021 10:09 pm

He does it in every big game. We're just living in a simulation where he's trying to beat himself over and over again.
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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by CrazyHorse » Sat May 29, 2021 10:09 pm

Thoroughly enjoyed this tonight. Watching City fans in tears never ever gets old.

I've heard Noel Gallagher on the radio no less than sixteen times today telling me they'll win this game nine times out of ten. Wonder how many times I'll hear the gobshite tomorrow?
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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat May 29, 2021 10:21 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 10:09 pm
He does it in every big game. We're just living in a simulation where he's trying to beat himself over and over again.
It was madness. Move Foden and De Bruyne to play Sterling. No idea what he was thinking. Best team in the country all season so let’s try and make it harder.

In fairness I’d say Chelsea are probably perfectly set up to play City.

Also no without doubt that Kante is the best midfield player the premiership has ever seen. And by some distance. If I could sign any player in football he’d be absolutely top of the list. Outstanding player.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Harry Genshaw » Sat May 29, 2021 10:29 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 10:21 pm
Also no without doubt that Kante is the best midfield player the premiership has ever seen. And by some distance. If I could sign any player in football he’d be absolutely top of the list. Outstanding player.
The best destroyer certainly and every team needs one but give me a David Silva any day.
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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sat May 29, 2021 11:14 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 9:19 pm
Guardiola has had an absolute mare tonight. Playing folk out of position, no holding player in midfield. No idea what he’s thinking.
I think he wanted to try and nullify Kante and Mount by bypassing the centre of the pitch and holding possession in wide areas, isolating defenders and letting Sterling and Mahrez do their thing. It's why he brought Sterling back in, because he's better one-on-one, and also why he brought Zinchecko in, because he wanted to avoid having the leftback moving into the centre and get murdered by Kante.

Was the dumbest thing I have ever seen him do in management. He handed the best midfielder on earth the entire centre of the pitch and let Mount drop off whenever he wanted. Madness.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Bruce Rioja » Sun May 30, 2021 8:45 am

I struggle to see how anyone becomes earnestly passionate about a game which is effectively two spoiled kits getting their train sets out!
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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun May 30, 2021 8:50 am

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 10:29 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 10:21 pm
Also no without doubt that Kante is the best midfield player the premiership has ever seen. And by some distance. If I could sign any player in football he’d be absolutely top of the list. Outstanding player.
The best destroyer certainly and every team needs one but give me a David Silva any day.
I mean both at their peak for sure would be amazing. But Silva gives you moments and whatever. Kante is the equivalent of two players and wins you cups. City’s array of midfield attacking talent were outplayed by Angolo and it’s why he’s just so so good. It’s also in my view the most critical area on the pitch. It’s why MJ Williams was crucial for us. The protection you afford your defence from that midfield area in modern football is in my view the determinant of success or failure.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Prufrock » Sun May 30, 2021 1:01 pm

You don't like football right :D

Kante is incredible. Probably the best of that type of player there has ever been but destroying is so much easier than creating. He does it to an unbelievable level and deserves all the praise be gets for performances last night (and he does it consistently on the big stage) but if someone said you can have Kante or de Bruyne (just as an example, Silva, Gerrard, Scholes etc) you'd be wrong to take Kante.

What do you do absolutely have to have is one of those players.

I think the mistake was half not playing Rodri (it isn't Gundogan's best role but he's done it before) but the knock on effect of picking Sterling (who was awful and looks a shadow of himself right now) and moving Foden. He's been unbelievable off the left and now he's genuinely quick he has to become a forward. He played well enough in there but hardly got in a position to hurt Chelsea.
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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun May 30, 2021 1:48 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Sun May 30, 2021 1:01 pm
You don't like football right :D

Kante is incredible. Probably the best of that type of player there has ever been but destroying is so much easier than creating. He does it to an unbelievable level and deserves all the praise be gets for performances last night (and he does it consistently on the big stage) but if someone said you can have Kante or de Bruyne (just as an example, Silva, Gerrard, Scholes etc) you'd be wrong to take Kante.

What do you do absolutely have to have is one of those players.

I think the mistake was half not playing Rodri (it isn't Gundogan's best role but he's done it before) but the knock on effect of picking Sterling (who was awful and looks a shadow of himself right now) and moving Foden. He's been unbelievable off the left and now he's genuinely quick he has to become a forward. He played well enough in there but hardly got in a position to hurt Chelsea.
See I disagree. Nobody doubts De Bruyne or any of those other players. It’s not an if/or scenario.

But for me the player that is most critical is that role NGolo plays and he does it better than anyone I’ve ever seen. His pitch coverage is superb. He’s not just a sitter he can cover for two players.

Nobody says you can stick him in without players to do other role BUT last night as an example City undoubtedly had the better attacking midfield BUT didn’t win because Chelsea had the best player in the most crucial position. Pep messed up but still. Kante is world class. For me if you want my view on why England haven’t won anything since 66 it’s because we can’t face up to al These great teams having great players like Kante doing that job, and instead end up picking an average player who gets in because he can ‘sometimes look graceful stroking a 60 yard ball’ or end up picking Gerrard and Lampard together. You can see the problem with Wmglish fans who have taken our lack of technical ability historically and distorted it into something that prevents us from being effective.

Bolton are the classic last season. Full of good attacking midfield types at the start but nobody who can do the job of filling the midfield hole. MJ comes in and immediately sorts it. That role for me is the hardest and most critical to effectively fill on the pitch. Apart from perhaps goalscorer.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Prufrock » Sun May 30, 2021 1:56 pm

Aye because at no point in the last decade have we suffered from having a bunch of try hard clogging destroyers and no quality in the final third.
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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun May 30, 2021 2:03 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Sun May 30, 2021 1:56 pm
Aye because at no point in the last decade have we suffered from having a bunch of try hard clogging destroyers and no quality in the final third.
We’ve not had a shortage of good midfield players. You’ve named three of them. Now we’ve got Foden and Mount but who is our Dunga? Every team has one. A world class destroyer. We’ve gone down the rabbit hole of saying ‘nah that’s not football’ whilst the rest of the world laughs at us.

Our problem for me has rarely been a lack of midfield quality it’s been the balance that’s never been right.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Worthy4England » Sun May 30, 2021 2:19 pm

Weren't we 4th in last WC and runners up in European Nations? Not a winning return, but hardly rest of world laughing at us, either.

As for Kante, great player but City have still managed to win more against Chelsea in last couple of years than the other way round (and yes you could shorten that to last 5 and find Chelsea with 4-1 advantage, but Kante's been playing a lot longer than that). I agree Guardiola got it wrong last night, entirely.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Prufrock » Sun May 30, 2021 6:09 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun May 30, 2021 2:03 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Sun May 30, 2021 1:56 pm
Aye because at no point in the last decade have we suffered from having a bunch of try hard clogging destroyers and no quality in the final third.
We’ve not had a shortage of good midfield players. You’ve named three of them. Now we’ve got Foden and Mount but who is our Dunga? Every team has one. A world class destroyer. We’ve gone down the rabbit hole of saying ‘nah that’s not football’ whilst the rest of the world laughs at us.

Our problem for me has rarely been a lack of midfield quality it’s been the balance that’s never been right.
I meant Bolton.

England suffered for a long time without that player absolutely, I said above that you need one. In Rice and Henderson I think we have good enough modern equivalents, and you certainly need one, but that's the relatively easy bit. We're agreed on balance, I'm not suggesting we go and play 12 attacking midfielders, I'm just saying that's the hard bit.

Let's say we're picking a team from scratch. You've just picked up Kante for free, and I've got Dr Bruyne. I can go and get a Hojbjerg or similar for £15m last summer. De Bruyne and Hojbjerg are wiping the floor with Kante and any midfielder on earth you can pick up for £15m.
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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun May 30, 2021 8:02 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Sun May 30, 2021 6:09 pm
Let's say we're picking a team from scratch. You've just picked up Kante for free, and I've got Dr Bruyne. I can go and get a Hojbjerg or similar for £15m last summer. De Bruyne and Hojbjerg are wiping the floor with Kante and any midfielder on earth you can pick up for £15m.
I'm not sure that's a particularly good way to figure that out. If you are just picking players out as fantasy football then Messi is technically available on a free, so he can have Messi for free with Kante and spend his 15m on hookers and cocaine.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Prufrock » Sun May 30, 2021 8:20 pm

"Technically" is doing a lot of work there, I'm talking about market value. There's a reason attacking players cost more than defenders, and attacking midfielders more than defensive ones.
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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun May 30, 2021 9:04 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Sun May 30, 2021 8:20 pm
"Technically" is doing a lot of work there, I'm talking about market value. There's a reason attacking players cost more than defenders, and attacking midfielders more than defensive ones.
Hojbjerg's market value was what it was not just because he was a defensive mid, it was also because he was playing for Southampton and in the last year of his contract. His value now is a lot more than £15m.

Generally I agree with you that players like De Bruyne will always have more value to teams than players like Kante, even though I think Kante is a better player in terms of the history of the game. I just don't think Hojberg is a good example of what's typical here and if we're picking out the most favourable transfers to use as examples, then he gets Messi.

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