Hillsborough Disaster

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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by Verbal » Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:55 pm

Unsurprisingly this dominates the front pages tomorrow. http://twitpic.com/photos/suttonnick#type=gallery" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Notably absent from the Telegraph's front page. Mentioned on the Express's, but they went with some migrant-baiting instead.
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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by Lord Kangana » Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:57 pm

Surprisingly enough that was also the Expresses's' front page today too.
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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by Verbal » Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:51 am

PM's statement yesterday

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6c3gvAoqnM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by Lord Kangana » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:50 am

The Telegraph reports thusly:
It has long been established that the police's loss of control, and specifically the decision to open an exit gate and allow Liverpool fans into an already over-crowded central terrace, caused the disaster.

In the aftermath, however, police blamed drunk and ticketless fans, an account that has now been comprehensively and definitively exposed as a deliberate attempt to shift the blame
I hadn't appreciated that the official findings had already found the Police culpable. Indeed, the narrative I always heard was that it was the fans fault, and that is what was being fought against.

As for the second paragraph, one can't help wondering exactly what the breadth and depth of the cover-up was. Intriguingly, someone on the radio this evening (sadly I forget who) mentioned that Bernard Ingham (whilst the PM's press secretary, and notoriously no wishy-washy shrinking violet and one assumes no lover of football fans or scousers given the government he was working for) had briefed the PM that he felt the South Yorkshire force's version of events sounded incredibly far fetched and indicated a cover-up. Indeed, this may have been the PM's own view.

Complicity? Political expediency? Returns of favours after Police help during the Miner's Strike of '84? Laxity? Or just not true? Why would a PM ignore such a briefing? (if, indeed, it ever happened). If anything these findings are going to pose as many questions as answers....
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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:09 am

Just on a secondary note. I wouldn't wipe my arse with the Sun: my shit is far too good to waste on that rag.
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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by CAPSLOCK » Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:48 am

thebish wrote:
blurred wrote:
CAPSLOCK wrote:blurred

Do you, or do you not, accept that fans played a part in the tragedy?

Not the poor dead buggers at the front
What do you mean 'played a part'? Do you mean 'were culpable'?
I think he means - were there any Liverpool fans there - and their presence would then equate to some measure of blame... :roll:
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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by blurred » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:32 am

Lord Kangana wrote:The Telegraph reports thusly:
It has long been established that the police's loss of control, and specifically the decision to open an exit gate and allow Liverpool fans into an already over-crowded central terrace, caused the disaster.

In the aftermath, however, police blamed drunk and ticketless fans, an account that has now been comprehensively and definitively exposed as a deliberate attempt to shift the blame
I hadn't appreciated that the official findings had already found the Police culpable. Indeed, the narrative I always heard was that it was the fans fault, and that is what was being fought against.
Genuine question - do you see why Scousers have been 'banging on about this for years' and decided not to just 'let it go'? The initial report into the disaster laid the blame squarely at the feet of the Police and the stadium, and yet Liverpool fans were continually met by 'you killed your own fans' and the media narrative of hooligans, pissed-up, late-arriving, ticketless fans for more than 20 years since the facts came to light and the myths were dispelled. Not to mention the botched inquests into their deaths and the terrible way it was all handled by the police (questioning grieving parents about how much their 10 year old daughters had drank, taking blood alcohol levels from all the deceased, etc).

Most of what came into the public domain yesterday through the report was well known to Liverpool fans and anyone who'd read up on the disaster/seen the Taylor report. Hopefully now people will actually understand a little more what went on.
Lord Kangana wrote:As for the second paragraph, one can't help wondering exactly what the breadth and depth of the cover-up was. Intriguingly, someone on the radio this evening (sadly I forget who) mentioned that Bernard Ingham (whilst the PM's press secretary, and notoriously no wishy-washy shrinking violet and one assumes no lover of football fans or scousers given the government he was working for) had briefed the PM that he felt the South Yorkshire force's version of events sounded incredibly far fetched and indicated a cover-up. Indeed, this may have been the PM's own view.

Complicity? Political expediency? Returns of favours after Police help during the Miner's Strike of '84? Laxity? Or just not true? Why would a PM ignore such a briefing? (if, indeed, it ever happened). If anything these findings are going to pose as many questions as answers....
That quote came, I believe, some time after the Taylor Report. Ingham's initial notorious quote to the press upon his visit to Hillsborough in the days after the disaster was that it was caused by 'a tanked-up mob', because that's what SYP were briefing him about. I agree though that there are still a lot more questions left to be answered, particularly about the role of government (notwithstanding that Sir Irvine Patnick MP was the source of a lot of the briefing to SYP about shifting the blame onto the fans).

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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by jaffka » Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:09 am

blurred why are dodging answering the questions put to you?

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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by blurred » Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:12 am

jaffka wrote:blurred why are dodging answering the questions put to you?
Which one(s)? CAPSLOCK asked me something, I responded and he's yet to reply to that. If I've missed anything else point it out.

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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by jaffka » Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:44 am

blurred wrote:
jaffka wrote:blurred why are dodging answering the questions put to you?
Which one(s)? CAPSLOCK asked me something, I responded and he's yet to reply to that. If I've missed anything else point it out.
I suggest that you read back then

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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by blurred » Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:51 am

jaffka wrote:
blurred wrote:
jaffka wrote:blurred why are dodging answering the questions put to you?
Which one(s)? CAPSLOCK asked me something, I responded and he's yet to reply to that. If I've missed anything else point it out.
I suggest that you read back then
My apologies
jaffka wrote: :hang:

why are you here?

why not go to some doom mongering scouse forum where you can all be blameless?
The answer to both is just to specifically annoy you, obviously. Glad I could help.

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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by jaffka » Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:59 am

What is your purpose then?

Regardless of what has been released, I still believe that drunken lout scouse fans rushing were responsible. Just like others on here.

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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by bobo the clown » Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:06 am

Lord Kangana wrote:Indeed, but last time I checked unfortunately even people you dislike are entitled to justice.
Bugger ....... that's bad news.

Are you sure ?
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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by blurred » Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:09 am

jaffka wrote:What is your purpose then?
Because I've been here for years (longer than you, as it happens), and have posted on a number of topics, met a number of good people and continue to dip into the community and chat about whatever when my time allows.
jaffka wrote:Regardless of what has been released, I still believe that drunken lout scouse fans rushing were responsible. Just like others on here.
Well then you, and they, are wrong. Every investigation into Hillsborough has reviewed CCTV footage, taken witness statements into account and in the most recent case evaluated 450,000 documents from more than 80 organisations. They have concluded that your assertion is false. Not possible. Wrong. Untrue.

You have (presumably) read nothing or very little about the disaster. Academics, judges and independent panels have read thousands of pages of evidence and listened to hundreds and thousands of accounts, and have all come to the same conclusion.

You can continue to hold your view if you wish, but that makes you (and anyone else like you) an unthinking moron, unwilling to accept facts that are presented to you.

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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by Raven » Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:10 am

As someone who has followed this with some interest I find some of the comments above distasteful, ill informed and at times down right ignorant. I think Blurred’s comments are mainly accurate and as a Liverpool fan (and if I remember correctly having some involvement in fans groups/bodies) its not surprising some of his/her posts are quite passionate (and whether they were there at the time or even old enough to remember it is irrelevant), whereas other posts come across as vitriolic rantings – for instance someone posted they hate scousers…how the hell can you say that, do you know every scouser out there?

As I said I have followed this and at the time I found it very upsetting and distressful (and still do). As far as I could make out it was clear that certain things were hidden, people in charge were incompetent beyond words , some of the nonsense spouted at the time and still now is pathetic – for example fans without tickets, turning up late or some a bit worse for drink….like that never happened before and I bet it still goes on. Have those making comments about people causing the crush as they were still trying to in, get ever in been in this situation? I have (and nearly once ended up on a tube track) and those at the back don’t know what’s going on ahead. The fault clearly lies ultimately with those in charge and the attempt at how much they tried to hide this has even astounded me and I wonder how far up did it really go, deep down I believe it went right to the top and that info may be still be being kept from us ….what else did the people in charge lie about at the time and still do about other matters

As for the newspaper article, sums up that piece of crap and the apology has come too late and is just empty words due to that fact that the real truth is coming out

Why shouldn’t they now go for justice, after all those in charge have got away with it for years and got away with breaking the actual law by changing evidence etc.

Not sure I will post here anymore due to the nature of some of the posts above, no great loss I know but after all we are all football fans no matter our allegiances but what went on at Hillsborough was disgusting and those vilified and lied about at the time were not to blame, some of them should still be with us and people should have more respect.
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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by CrazyHorse » Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:15 am

Raven wrote:Not sure I will post here anymore due to the nature of some of the posts above, no great loss I know but after all we are all football fans no matter our allegiances but what went on at Hillsborough was disgusting and those vilified and lied about at the time were not to blame, some of them should still be with us and people should have more respect.
Seriously? You're quitting the site because one or two other members have a different view to yours?
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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by truewhite15 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:16 am

Forgive me for wading into this discussion. I've sorta skim-read the reports, my knowledge on the subject is pretty sparse though. I do have one question.

The problem, as it were, were that too many people were getting into the centre pens, am I right? So much so that a crush was developing OUTSIDE as well as inside, hence why the police opened the emergency exits to let people IN through them. But the outer pens were, at this stage, still relatively sparsely populated?

If all the above quotes are correct, why couldn't the 'Pool fans who pushed in at the back of the centre pens see that a crush was developing, and redirect their steps to the outer pens, where there would be more room...?

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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by ohjimmyjimmy » Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:17 am

Raven wrote:As someone who has followed this with some interest I find some of the comments above distasteful, ill informed and at times down right ignorant. I think Blurred’s comments are mainly accurate and as a Liverpool fan (and if I remember correctly having some involvement in fans groups/bodies) its not surprising some of his/her posts are quite passionate (and whether they were there at the time or even old enough to remember it is irrelevant), whereas other posts come across as vitriolic rantings – for instance someone posted they hate scousers…how the hell can you say that, do you know every scouser out there?

As I said I have followed this and at the time I found it very upsetting and distressful (and still do). As far as I could make out it was clear that certain things were hidden, people in charge were incompetent beyond words , some of the nonsense spouted at the time and still now is pathetic – for example fans without tickets, turning up late or some a bit worse for drink….like that never happened before and I bet it still goes on. Have those making comments about people causing the crush as they were still trying to in, get ever in been in this situation? I have (and nearly once ended up on a tube track) and those at the back don’t know what’s going on ahead. The fault clearly lies ultimately with those in charge and the attempt at how much they tried to hide this has even astounded me and I wonder how far up did it really go, deep down I believe it went right to the top and that info may be still be being kept from us ….what else did the people in charge lie about at the time and still do about other matters

As for the newspaper article, sums up that piece of crap and the apology has come too late and is just empty words due to that fact that the real truth is coming out

Why shouldn’t they now go for justice, after all those in charge have got away with it for years and got away with breaking the actual law by changing evidence etc.

Not sure I will post here anymore due to the nature of some of the posts above, no great loss I know but after all we are all football fans no matter our allegiances but what went on at Hillsborough was disgusting and those vilified and lied about at the time were not to blame, some of them should still be with us and people should have more respect.
Don't get this bit.
Either they did or they didnt?
And by saying this phrase you are unfortunately perpetuating the exact 'myth' you are attempting to dispell.

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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by jaffka » Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:25 am

blurred wrote:
jaffka wrote:What is your purpose then?
Because I've been here for years (longer than you, as it happens), and have posted on a number of topics, met a number of good people and continue to dip into the community and chat about whatever when my time allows.
jaffka wrote:Regardless of what has been released, I still believe that drunken lout scouse fans rushing were responsible. Just like others on here.
Well then you, and they, are wrong. Every investigation into Hillsborough has reviewed CCTV footage, taken witness statements into account and in the most recent case evaluated 450,000 documents from more than 80 organisations. They have concluded that your assertion is false. Not possible. Wrong. Untrue.

You have (presumably) read nothing or very little about the disaster. Academics, judges and independent panels have read thousands of pages of evidence and listened to hundreds and thousands of accounts, and have all come to the same conclusion.

You can continue to hold your view if you wish, but that makes you (and anyone else like you) an unthinking moron, unwilling to accept facts that are presented to you.
In all the time I have been here, I dont recall seeing you post much in other areas, it always seems to be banging the same old sh*te.

As I said earlier, my views of scouse fans is not good, that is from my own personal experience.

The track record of misbehaviour will never change my view, that Liverpool fans who were drunk and riotous were the ones responsible for this incident. Quote all the crap that you want but my view is that, it will never be changed.

Oh and btw if I am a moron for that, well you are...your not worth the ban!

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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by coffeymagic » Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:25 am

One of my relatives is in the GMP.

They regularly act as a 'monitor' at those mock up emergency recreations the emergency services are so keen on.

Despite what the image is of a 'coherent, methodical and practical approach to dealing with riots/seiges/bomb blasts/gas attacks or Brazilians going about their daily business' they say that behind the scenes it's often a shambles and a lesson in buck-passing and blame dodging.

Every minor decision being passed up the chain of command through fear of reprisals to a mid-thirties guy at the top who's more interested in setting up a 'control centre' so he can collate information leads to confusion and indecision.

If Charles Menedez was a terror threat why wasn't he stopped at the end of his path? Why did the authorities wait till he was on a crowded tube train before filling him full of lead?

Because no one will make a decision.

I imagine, AND YES THIS IS ALL CONJECTURE that at the time the officers in charge were indecisive and slow to react leading to panic, a great mistake and that in turn lead to ..well the rest is history.

That's a mistake, a total error of judgement and a failing of those in charge.

The fact that then then sort to cover up that mistake is a true outrage.

Smear campaigns against fans, blaming drunks and ticketless supporters and generally lying like rats before retiring on nice big pensions is nothing short of disgusting.

Of course no one is to blame for anything these days and I'm sure that no prosecutions will be brought against those who quite simply sort to pervert the course of justice.

If that was you or me we'd be in prison by now.

And for the record I can not STAND LFC, it's fans or my brother-in-law.

Still doesn't mean they deserved to die and have their memory besmirched for over 20 years.

I'm glad the report has come out with the conclusions it has and hope that the families involved can move on to the next stage in dealing with the loss of their loved ones.

RI in a bit more P.

edit - pressed 'submit' too soon.
Last edited by coffeymagic on Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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