Hillsborough Disaster

[jaffka]

I dont see anyone blaming the poor fans who died, nor the ones already in the ground in good order and timely fashion.

[blurred]

Forgive me for wading into this discussion. I've sorta skim-read the reports, my knowledge on the subject is pretty sparse though. I do have one question.

The problem, as it were, were that too many people were getting into the centre pens, am I right? So much so that a crush was developing OUTSIDE as well as inside, hence why the police opened the emergency exits to let people IN through them. But the outer pens were, at this stage, still relatively sparsely populated?

Too many people were getting into pens 3 and 4, which is where the crush occurred. The emergency gates that were opened were by the turnstiles outside the ground, because there were thousands of people still outside who were unable to get into the ground (because there were only 7 turnstiles to allow 10,000 people to enter, the filter systems weren't in place, etc etc). The side pens were still relatively sparsely populated.

If all the above quotes are correct, why couldn't the 'Pool fans who pushed in at the back of the centre pens see that a crush was developing, and redirect their steps to the outer pens, where there would be more room...?

Largely because the layout of the Leppings Lane End effectively funnels everyone towards the central pens once you get through the turnstiles. The signage to the rest of the stand was minimal, and because the police didn't close off access to the central pens as they should have when they became full, directing people either side. Opening the gate wouldn't necessarily have led to the disaster if the police had done so, but directed everyone to the side of the stands when they did. It's one of a catalogue of causes that conspired to lead to the worst possible outcome.

Also you couldn't see the front of the pens from the tunnel that leads up to Pens 3 and 4, so you wouldn't have been aware of what was happening in front of you and just how dangerously packed pens 3 and 4 were.

[thebish]

Did anybody ask you to stick your unwanted beak in?

I didn't realise this was an invitation-only thread..

(if so - I missed the bit where you were invited to stick your proud-not-to-have-botherered-reading-the-facts-but-make-up-your-own-version-of-events beak in)

[blurred]

I imagine, AND YES THIS IS ALL CONJECTURE that at the time the officers in charge were indecisive and slow to react leading to panic, a great mistake and that in turn lead to ..well the rest is history.

It's not conjecture, it's a matter of record. David Duckenfield, the (inexperienced) match commander on the day, admitted that he 'froze' and didn't know what to do.

[ohjimmyjimmy]

Did anybody ask you to stick your unwanted beak in?

I didn't realise this was an invitation-only thread..

(if so - I missed the bit where you were invited to stick your proud-not-to-have-botherered-reading-the-facts-but-make-up-your-own-version-of-events beak in)

Oh yeah, i got one, it said 'RSVP' so i passed it on to Robin Van Persie...
(thought the extra 'S' was his middle name initial )

[thebish]

Did anybody ask you to stick your unwanted beak in?

I didn't realise this was an invitation-only thread..

(if so - I missed the bit where you were invited to stick your proud-not-to-have-botherered-reading-the-facts-but-make-up-your-own-version-of-events beak in)

Oh yeah, i got one, it said 'RSVP' so i passed it on to Robin Van Persie...
(thought the extra 'S' was his middle name initial )

[truewhite15]

Forgive me for wading into this discussion. I've sorta skim-read the reports, my knowledge on the subject is pretty sparse though. I do have one question.

The problem, as it were, were that too many people were getting into the centre pens, am I right? So much so that a crush was developing OUTSIDE as well as inside, hence why the police opened the emergency exits to let people IN through them. But the outer pens were, at this stage, still relatively sparsely populated?

Too many people were getting into pens 3 and 4, which is where the crush occurred. The emergency gates that were opened were by the turnstiles outside the ground, because there were thousands of people still outside who were unable to get into the ground (because there were only 7 turnstiles to allow 10,000 people to enter, the filter systems weren't in place, etc etc). The side pens were still relatively sparsely populated.

If all the above quotes are correct, why couldn't the 'Pool fans who pushed in at the back of the centre pens see that a crush was developing, and redirect their steps to the outer pens, where there would be more room...?

Largely because the layout of the Leppings Lane End effectively funnels everyone towards the central pens once you get through the turnstiles. The signage to the rest of the stand was minimal, and because the police didn't close off access to the central pens as they should have when they became full, directing people either side. Opening the gate wouldn't necessarily have led to the disaster if the police had done so, but directed everyone to the side of the stands when they did. It's one of a catalogue of causes that conspired to lead to the worst possible outcome.

Also you couldn't see the front of the pens from the tunnel that leads up to Pens 3 and 4, so you wouldn't have been aware of what was happening in front of you and just how dangerously packed pens 3 and 4 were.

Thanks. And fair enough, the police should have closed off the access to pens 3 and 4. It does seem, however, odd that the fans kept pouring into those centre pens of their own accord, regardless of the architectural design of the Leppings Lane End. I've seen clips of the event, and the stand was so incredibly packed. Surely this congestion must have funnelled back onto the "concourse", people struggling to get up the steps, etc? Therefore, wouldn't it be an act of instinct, of self-preservation, that the fans towards the back would decide to go towards the outer pens?

I seem to remember seeing people in the upper tiers pulling supporters to safety, surely indicating that they found it impossible to turn around and simply head back down the steps to the concourse; the only reason for this must have been supporters trying, still, despite the obvious crush, to push their way into the centre pens, no?

[ohjimmyjimmy]

Forgive me for wading into this discussion. I've sorta skim-read the reports, my knowledge on the subject is pretty sparse though. I do have one question.

The problem, as it were, were that too many people were getting into the centre pens, am I right? So much so that a crush was developing OUTSIDE as well as inside, hence why the police opened the emergency exits to let people IN through them. But the outer pens were, at this stage, still relatively sparsely populated?

Too many people were getting into pens 3 and 4, which is where the crush occurred. The emergency gates that were opened were by the turnstiles outside the ground, because there were thousands of people still outside who were unable to get into the ground (because there were only 7 turnstiles to allow 10,000 people to enter, the filter systems weren't in place, etc etc). The side pens were still relatively sparsely populated.

If all the above quotes are correct, why couldn't the 'Pool fans who pushed in at the back of the centre pens see that a crush was developing, and redirect their steps to the outer pens, where there would be more room...?

Largely because the layout of the Leppings Lane End effectively funnels everyone towards the central pens once you get through the turnstiles. The signage to the rest of the stand was minimal, and because the police didn't close off access to the central pens as they should have when they became full, directing people either side. Opening the gate wouldn't necessarily have led to the disaster if the police had done so, but directed everyone to the side of the stands when they did. It's one of a catalogue of causes that conspired to lead to the worst possible outcome.

Also you couldn't see the front of the pens from the tunnel that leads up to Pens 3 and 4, so you wouldn't have been aware of what was happening in front of you and just how dangerously packed pens 3 and 4 were.

Thanks. And fair enough, the police should have closed off the access to pens 3 and 4. It does seem, however, odd that the fans kept pouring into those centre pens of their own accord, regardless of the architectural design of the Leppings Lane End. I've seen clips of the event, and the stand was so incredibly packed. Surely this congestion must have funnelled back onto the "concourse", people struggling to get up the steps, etc? Therefore, wouldn't it be an act of instinct, of self-preservation, that the fans towards the back would decide to go towards the outer pens?

I seem to remember seeing people in the upper tiers pulling supporters to safety, surely indicating that they found it impossible to turn around and simply head back down the steps to the concourse; the only reason for this must have been supporters trying, still, despite the obvious crush, to push their way into the centre pens, no?

I dont think it necessarily means people were still pushing or surging, more that you'd be so penned in that unless you could get a message to everyone in turn to move backwards then, short of pushing your way out (which aint gonna happen) then either you get pulled out or find some other way to get out and quick.

[blurred]

Thanks. And fair enough, the police should have closed off the access to pens 3 and 4. It does seem, however, odd that the fans kept pouring into those centre pens of their own accord, regardless of the architectural design of the Leppings Lane End.

The "quotes" are all from the Taylor Report.

There were "no conspicuous signs" to other parts of the stadium, no direction by police to other parts of the ground, and the "obvious" access point which simply read 'standing' above it lead almost all to believe that this was the only route to the terraces. Police had rejected the idea of filling the pens successively and "hoped" that supporters "would find their own level".

At the previous year's semi final the police had "successfully" redistributed fans to the side pens and closed access to the central pens.

Duckenfield admitted that the idea of closing access to the pens "didn't cross his mind" despite noting that they were already full by 2:30pm.

I've seen clips of the event, and the stand was so incredibly packed. Surely this congestion must have funnelled back onto the "concourse", people struggling to get up the steps, etc? Therefore, wouldn't it be an act of instinct, of self-preservation, that the fans towards the back would decide to go towards the outer pens?

There were no steps up to the pens from a concourse, rather an unlit tunnel that led down to them (from where you couldn't see what was happening in front of you). The tunnel, by the by, was steeper than should have been allowed by the Green Guide, and one of the many reasons why Hillsborough did not have a valid safety certificate.

I seem to remember seeing people in the upper tiers pulling supporters to safety, surely indicating that they found it impossible to turn around and simply head back down the steps to the concourse; the only reason for this must have been supporters trying, still, despite the obvious crush, to push their way into the centre pens, no?

There was a police announcement in the lead-up to kick off for fans in the central pens to move forward. By 2:30pm many of the fans in the central pens had lost voluntary control of their own movement. This is compounded by the decision to neither delay kick-off, nor close access to the pens. Again, either of these things could have alleviated the suffering of those involved and allowed people to get out of already over-full standing areas. But because access wasn't shut off, people continued to head down the "obvious" route to the standing terrace, compounding the mistake.

[jaffka]

This is where the bullsh*t is, people cannot go anywhere but still push, but they are not at fault, bollox

[coffeymagic]

This is where the bullsh*t is, people cannot go anywhere but still push, but they are not at fault, bollox

If you're in a tunnel and there are thousand behind you you can't very well turn around and start pushing the other way can you?

I've been lifted off my feet before in crowds, there's nothing you can do. I imagine it was horrific for everyone caught up in the 'herd' that day.

Are you saying that you could have just stepped aside?

Perhaps you could 'spiderman' yourself up the wall to safety?

[truewhite15]

Thanks. And fair enough, the police should have closed off the access to pens 3 and 4. It does seem, however, odd that the fans kept pouring into those centre pens of their own accord, regardless of the architectural design of the Leppings Lane End.

The "quotes" are all from the Taylor Report.

There were "no conspicuous signs" to other parts of the stadium, no direction by police to other parts of the ground, and the "obvious" access point which simply read 'standing' above it lead almost all to believe that this was the only route to the terraces. Police had rejected the idea of filling the pens successively and "hoped" that supporters "would find their own level".

At the previous year's semi final the police had "successfully" redistributed fans to the side pens and closed access to the central pens.

Duckenfield admitted that the idea of closing access to the pens "didn't cross his mind" despite noting that they were already full by 2:30pm.

I've seen clips of the event, and the stand was so incredibly packed. Surely this congestion must have funnelled back onto the "concourse", people struggling to get up the steps, etc? Therefore, wouldn't it be an act of instinct, of self-preservation, that the fans towards the back would decide to go towards the outer pens?

There were no steps up to the pens from a concourse, rather an unlit tunnel that led down to them (from where you couldn't see what was happening in front of you). The tunnel, by the by, was steeper than should have been allowed by the Green Guide, and one of the many reasons why Hillsborough did not have a valid safety certificate.

I seem to remember seeing people in the upper tiers pulling supporters to safety, surely indicating that they found it impossible to turn around and simply head back down the steps to the concourse; the only reason for this must have been supporters trying, still, despite the obvious crush, to push their way into the centre pens, no?

There was a police announcement in the lead-up to kick off for fans in the central pens to move forward. By 2:30pm many of the fans in the central pens had lost voluntary control of their own movement. This is compounded by the decision to neither delay kick-off, nor close access to the pens. Again, either of these things could have alleviated the suffering of those involved and allowed people to get out of already over-full standing areas. But because access wasn't shut off, people continued to head down the "obvious" route to the standing terrace, compounding the mistake.

I understand that the police fecked up, Blurred. They should have closed the centre pens, they didn't. They should have delayed the kick-off while they sorted out the crush, they didn't. They should have opened the fences at the front, they didn't. The police play a major part in the disaster, and the supporters a relative minority.

But in all your responses, you seem to indicate that the Liverpool supporters were as sheep, blindly following, not a dash of common sense just being herded without any sense of individual thought. I contend that you are, in fact, doing them a disservice by this. Supporters descending the tunnel into the central pens MUST have seen some sort of danger ahead of them, they must have seen potential issues and discomfort. In that case, the only logical thing to do would be to turn around and try to find an alternative route into the stand, and if they had done so, they would surely have discovered the tunnels leading down into the side pens. Supporters in the centre pens were having to be rescued from the very middle of the stand by being pulled into the upper tier. The people behind them, and therefore closer to the entrance tunnel, must have seen that this was an issue, and therefore the logical move would be to turn around. That they didn't indicates one of two things. 1) That the supporters at the back failed to recognise the danger, despite the blazingly obvious signs around them or 2) there were still people trying to enter in the tunnel behind them, indicating a tremendous lack of sense.

It was a tragedy, and yes, there is a lot the police could have done to prevent or alleviate it. 96 people died that day, and they needn't have done had the police acted swiftly and properly. It was a terrible injustice that the police tried to foist all the blame off themselves, and I understand the happiness that that has been rectified. But surely the supporters themselves, not the poor souls at the front, but those at the back who failed to recognise the danger despite all the evidence of their own eyes, must accept some small portion of the blame?

[truewhite15]

This is where the bullsh*t is, people cannot go anywhere but still push, but they are not at fault, bollox

If you're in a tunnel and there are thousand behind you you can't very well turn around and start pushing the other way can you?

I've been lifted off my feet before in crowds, there's nothing you can do. I imagine it was horrific for everyone caught up in the 'herd' that day.

Are you saying that you could have just stepped aside?

Perhaps you could 'spiderman' yourself up the wall to safety?

But surely those people in the tunnel must have seen the potential trouble ahead?

[blurred]

But surely those people in the tunnel must have seen the potential trouble ahead?

It was unlit, and it was (too) steep. You couldn't see what was ahead, or reasonably have any expectation that the pen was already well above its capacity.

[truewhite15]

But surely those people in the tunnel must have seen the potential trouble ahead?

It was unlit, and it was (too) steep. You couldn't see what was ahead, or reasonably have any expectation that the pen was already well above its capacity.

The fact that the queue was moving incredibly slowly, or not moving at all, would be a clue to the stand being above capacity, no? As well as the inevitable one or two fighting against the tide, or shouting at the others to turn around?

[CrazyHorse]

I think the fact that 96 people died and many more were injured on that day suggests that the crowd couldn't see that there was a problem up ahead. Or more specifically even if they could they couldn't do anything to stop it.

[blurred]

But in all your responses, you seem to indicate that the Liverpool supporters were as sheep, blindly following, not a dash of common sense just being herded without any sense of individual thought. I contend that you are, in fact, doing them a disservice by this. Supporters descending the tunnel into the central pens MUST have seen some sort of danger ahead of them, they must have seen potential issues and discomfort. In that case, the only logical thing to do would be to turn around and try to find an alternative route into the stand, and if they had done so, they would surely have discovered the tunnels leading down into the side pens. Supporters in the centre pens were having to be rescued from the very middle of the stand by being pulled into the upper tier. The people behind them, and therefore closer to the entrance tunnel, must have seen that this was an issue, and therefore the logical move would be to turn around. That they didn't indicates one of two things. 1) That the supporters at the back failed to recognise the danger, despite the blazingly obvious signs around them or 2) there were still people trying to enter in the tunnel behind them, indicating a tremendous lack of sense.

It was a tragedy, and yes, there is a lot the police could have done to prevent or alleviate it. 96 people died that day, and they needn't have done had the police acted swiftly and properly. It was a terrible injustice that the police tried to foist all the blame off themselves, and I understand the happiness that that has been rectified. But surely the supporters themselves, not the poor souls at the front, but those at the back who failed to recognise the danger despite all the evidence of their own eyes, must accept some small portion of the blame?

You speak as if fans didn't do that. As if there weren't people who managed to turn back, or avoid the central pens. But of course not everyone did or could. I know personally of at least one person who'd been there previously, been involved in a crush, and so deliberately avoided the central tunnel and knew he could get round to the left by the North Stand. That prior knowledge saved his life.

The problem was that the crush was already well underway in the pens long before the police opened the outside gate. People were already dying. More fans headed for the central pens through the tunnel in the build up to kick off, from the entrance of which you could see the pitch but not the terraces, as the slope headed down to the front of the stand at too steep a rake). Many have commented that they lost their footing and were carried downhill just by weight of numbers. By that point they were no longer in control of their own actions, and were being carried into the ground without actually walking. Even if you got halfway down the tunnel and realised that something was wrong, you were fighting against the slope and the scores of people who had arrived in the minute or two it'd taken you to come to that conclusion who were walking in behind you. By that time, though, it was too late and you were already being lifted off your feet and into the crush.

Fans assumed that they could head down the tunnel and disperse across the terrace, not knowing that it was a caged section with no way out, because there was nothing to the contrary to indicate otherwise. If you hadn't been to recent games on the Leppings Lane End you wouldn't have known that the terrace had been sub-divided into pens as it was previously one big terrace.

The fact that the queue was moving incredibly slowly, or not moving at all, would be a clue to the stand being above capacity, no? As well as the inevitable one or two fighting against the tide, or shouting at the others to turn around?

The crush actually compounded the problems, too - as crush barriers gave way and spectators fell and were trampled, it meant that 'more space' was becoming available for people to fill. As you may or may not know with terraces there's always an ebb and flow, and as people gave way those at the back will have assumed that the terrace was just finding its natural space.

If you've ever got onto a packed tube train or been in a mosh pit you'll know that you can always squeeze another person into a confined space. People just get a bit more uncomfortable and get squashed together a bit more. Unfortunately, there were thousands too many in a confined space, and people were literally having the life squeezed out of them as more people came onto the terrace. There was nothing they could do.

Also, the fans were screaming at the police to open the gates at the front to allow the crush to ease. The fans were pulling their fellow supporters up into the stands above to get them out. The fans were scrambling over fences to get out. The fans were doing as much as they could, while the police stood and watched and did nothing to stop people entering the terrace, or to help them leave. At one point they called for reinforcements and dog-handlers at the front of the stand because they thought it was a pitch invasion, despite the 38 Spurs fans that were injured in the same way and the crushes that had developed at previous semi finals.

[CAPSLOCK]

Did anybody ask you to stick your unwanted beak in?

I didn't realise this was an invitation-only thread..

(if so - I missed the bit where you were invited to stick your proud-not-to-have-botherered-reading-the-facts-but-make-up-your-own-version-of-events beak in)

When the post is directly addressed to blurred, I really don't see why you felt it necessary to attempt to put words into my mouth

I said I won't be reading the report - after all, thats just the latest version of 'facts'

I've read enough on the matter to reach a conclusion...and been in enough situations that could've developed differently than they did

That conclusion points fingers at all sorts...including some fans of Liverpool

Some members of the FA

Some representatives of Sheff Weds

Some police

[truewhite15]

But in all your responses, you seem to indicate that the Liverpool supporters were as sheep, blindly following, not a dash of common sense just being herded without any sense of individual thought. I contend that you are, in fact, doing them a disservice by this. Supporters descending the tunnel into the central pens MUST have seen some sort of danger ahead of them, they must have seen potential issues and discomfort. In that case, the only logical thing to do would be to turn around and try to find an alternative route into the stand, and if they had done so, they would surely have discovered the tunnels leading down into the side pens. Supporters in the centre pens were having to be rescued from the very middle of the stand by being pulled into the upper tier. The people behind them, and therefore closer to the entrance tunnel, must have seen that this was an issue, and therefore the logical move would be to turn around. That they didn't indicates one of two things. 1) That the supporters at the back failed to recognise the danger, despite the blazingly obvious signs around them or 2) there were still people trying to enter in the tunnel behind them, indicating a tremendous lack of sense.

It was a tragedy, and yes, there is a lot the police could have done to prevent or alleviate it. 96 people died that day, and they needn't have done had the police acted swiftly and properly. It was a terrible injustice that the police tried to foist all the blame off themselves, and I understand the happiness that that has been rectified. But surely the supporters themselves, not the poor souls at the front, but those at the back who failed to recognise the danger despite all the evidence of their own eyes, must accept some small portion of the blame?

You speak as if fans didn't do that. As if there weren't people who managed to turn back, or avoid the central pens. But of course not everyone did or could. I know personally of at least one person who'd been there previously, been involved in a crush, and so deliberately avoided the central tunnel and knew he could get round to the left by the North Stand. That prior knowledge saved his life.

The problem was that the crush was already well underway in the pens long before the police opened the outside gate. People were already dying. More fans headed for the central pens through the tunnel in the build up to kick off, from the entrance of which you could see the pitch but not the terraces, as the slope headed down to the front of the stand at too steep a rake). Many have commented that they lost their footing and were carried downhill just by weight of numbers. By that point they were no longer in control of their own actions, and were being carried into the ground without actually walking. Even if you got halfway down the tunnel and realised that something was wrong, you were fighting against the slope and the scores of people who had arrived in the minute or two it'd taken you to come to that conclusion who were walking in behind you. By that time, though, it was too late and you were already being lifted off your feet and into the crush.

Fans assumed that they could head down the tunnel and disperse across the terrace, not knowing that it was a caged section with no way out, because there was nothing to the contrary to indicate otherwise. If you hadn't been to recent games on the Leppings Lane End you wouldn't have known that the terrace had been sub-divided into pens as it was previously one big terrace.

The fact that the queue was moving incredibly slowly, or not moving at all, would be a clue to the stand being above capacity, no? As well as the inevitable one or two fighting against the tide, or shouting at the others to turn around?

The crush actually compounded the problems, too - as crush barriers gave way and spectators fell and were trampled, it meant that 'more space' was becoming available for people to fill. As you may or may not know with terraces there's always an ebb and flow, and as people gave way those at the back will have assumed that the terrace was just finding its natural space.

If you've ever got onto a packed tube train or been in a mosh pit you'll know that you can always squeeze another person into a confined space. People just get a bit more uncomfortable and get squashed together a bit more. Unfortunately, there were thousands too many in a confined space, and people were literally having the life squeezed out of them as more people came onto the terrace. There was nothing they could do.

Also, the fans were screaming at the police to open the gates at the front to allow the crush to ease. The fans were pulling their fellow supporters up into the stands above to get them out. The fans were scrambling over fences to get out. The fans were doing as much as they could, while the police stood and watched and did nothing to stop people entering the terrace, or to help them leave. At one point they called for reinforcements and dog-handlers at the front of the stand because they thought it was a pitch invasion, despite the 38 Spurs fans that were injured in the same way and the crushes that had developed at previous semi finals.

Fair enough. Thank you. I confess, I'm a little too young to have ever been in a terrace, so you've just helped me understand the events a bit more.

[jaffka]

Did anybody ask you to stick your unwanted beak in?

I didn't realise this was an invitation-only thread..

(if so - I missed the bit where you were invited to stick your proud-not-to-have-botherered-reading-the-facts-but-make-up-your-own-version-of-events beak in)

When the post is directly addressed to blurred, I really don't see why you felt it necessary to attempt to put words into my mouth

I said I won't be reading the report - after all, thats just the latest version of 'facts'

I've read enough on the matter to reach a conclusion...and been in enough situations that could've developed differently than they did

That conclusion points fingers at all sorts...including some fans of Liverpool

Some members of the FA

Some representatives of Sheff Weds

Some police

This.

To try and ram down the throat of people that a large group of pi**ed up arseholes pushing had no blame in the incident, well for me you lose all credibility.