Hillsborough Disaster

[thebish]

Come on here telling people to f*ck off, oh yeah great way to get your point across.

You see Genshaw just like Caps I dont give a feck and had quite enough of this sh*te being pointlessly brought up.

I have a view which differs from what is trying to be rammed down my throat, having experienced scouse shi*te supporters up front and personal I refuse to believe that they are completely absoloved of any sin.

what exactly is your view then? what do you think caused those deaths?

are you claiming those deaths were caused by pissed fans? and/or ticketless fans - in sufficient quantities to explain what happened?

if so - why and on what basis/evidence are you claiming that or holding that view?

there may have been the odd drunk or ticketless fan about - big deal - but to the extent that this caused those deaths??? really??? is that your position??

[thebish]

why are you here?

why not go to some doom mongering scouse forum where you can all be blameless?

don't understand this - why shouldn't blurred be here? he's been a part of this forum on and off for years.

telling people to f*ck off for having the audacity to disagree with him and have their own view, read back...

I suspect blurred is big enough to accept that was a bit strong - it's probably no more abusive than the way he has been treated over this matter in the several times it has raised on this forum though...

[CAPSLOCK]

blurred

Do you, or do you not, accept that fans played a part in the tragedy?

Not the poor dead buggers at the front

[blurred]

blurred

Do you, or do you not, accept that fans played a part in the tragedy?

Not the poor dead buggers at the front

What do you mean 'played a part'? Do you mean 'were culpable'?

[thebish]

blurred

Do you, or do you not, accept that fans played a part in the tragedy?

Not the poor dead buggers at the front

What do you mean 'played a part'? Do you mean 'were culpable'?

I think he means - were there any Liverpool fans there - and their presence would then equate to some measure of blame...

[bobo the clown]

Almost 100 people died .... primarily from crush injuries. Fact
They were crushed by the weight of many other people. Fact
Those other people entered the area in too great a number in too short a time. Fact
They came in through gates which were opened on Police orders due to their perception that there was a dangerous crush outside the ground. Fact
The reason there were too many people there then was because too many people left it too late to arrive. Fact
Some goodly number of these late comers were pissed, and many were ticketless and intending to use a well-tried "rush the gate" tactic to forcably get in fo free. I believe to be a fact, many deny this.
This turned out to be a disasterous decision. Fact
This was not a malicious act, but a terrible error. Reasonable surmize.
The Police then went about illegally covering up their error. Fact
The people killed were utterly innocent. Fact
The people who caused the original issue are simply never mentioned. Fact

[blurred]

Those other people entered the area in too great a number in too short a time. Fact

If by 'the area' you mean Pens 3 and 4 then yes. If you mean the Leppings Lane End as a whole then it's not a fact.

The reason there were too many people there then was because too many people left it too late to arrive. Fact

No, not a fact, as has been addressed earlier in this thread.

Some goodly number of these late comers were pissed, and many were ticketless and intending to use a well-tried "rush the gate" tactic to forcably get in fo free. I believe to be a fact, many deny this.

Why do you believe this to be a fact? Do you have any evidence to back this assertion? The Taylor Report has dismissed the ticketlessness as a factor. It dismissed late arrival as a factor.

The people who caused the original issue are simply never mentioned. Fact

What is 'the original issue'? Are these the 'ticketless, drunk, deliberately late arriving fans' that have been dismissed by not only the Taylor Report but the Independent Panel who had access to 450,000 documents today?

[bobo the clown]

I shall spend the next 23 years campaigning for the new "truth" to be shown to be a load of soft-arsed drivel. Until then I shall seek 'Justice'. I feel confident that if I say it long enough & often enough it will eventually be proven to be true.

[blurred]

Good luck with that

[jaffka]

Come on here telling people to f*ck off, oh yeah great way to get your point across.

You see Genshaw just like Caps I dont give a feck and had quite enough of this sh*te being pointlessly brought up.

I have a view which differs from what is trying to be rammed down my throat, having experienced scouse shi*te supporters up front and personal I refuse to believe that they are completely absoloved of any sin.

what exactly is your view then? what do you think caused those deaths?

are you claiming those deaths were caused by pissed fans? and/or ticketless fans - in sufficient quantities to explain what happened?

if so - why and on what basis/evidence are you claiming that or holding that view?

there may have been the odd drunk or ticketless fan about - big deal - but to the extent that this caused those deaths??? really??? is that your position??

my view is that pi**ed scouse fans acting in a disordely near rioutous fashion forced the authorities to take action.

[jaffka]

Good luck with that

and I have signed up to that campaign and look forward to boring the ass off you

[jaffka]

why are you here?

why not go to some doom mongering scouse forum where you can all be blameless?

don't understand this - why shouldn't blurred be here? he's been a part of this forum on and off for years.

telling people to f*ck off for having the audacity to disagree with him and have their own view, read back...

I suspect blurred is big enough to accept that was a bit strong - it's probably no more abusive than the way he has been treated over this matter in the several times it has raised on this forum though...

I have not seen it.

[Harry Genshaw]

I shall spend the next 23 years campaigning for the new "truth" to be shown to be a load of soft-arsed drivel. Until then I shall seek 'Justice'. I feel confident that if I say it long enough & often enough it will eventually be proven to be true.

Bobo are you seriously suggesting that this new inquiry is flawed and there is a cover up preventing any criticism of the fans coming out?

Is it not possible that all the slurs directed at the fans that you have chosen to believe these last 23 years were just that? Slurs?

I don't see why an intelligent, normally reasonable chap, cant accept the word of 2 enquiries, the Prime Minister, the Chief of Sth Yorkshire Police and 450,000 documents that said the fans were not to blame.

[Lord Kangana]

The police errors occured because of the late-comers, many pissed, a good number ticketless, who caused panic outside & the police & stewards wrongly, but for what they thought were good reasons & opened gates leading to the horrific crushing.

Except the Taylor Report completely dismissed that idea, didn't it. There was also an accident on the motorway that day giving a legimate reason for many to be be late. This is from the Interim Report:

has become a fact of football life that fans do turn up at all-ticket matches without tickets. It is not possible to give an accurate figure or even a reliable estimate of the number without tickets on 15 April. Police estimates varied from about 200 to about 2,000. There were certainly frequent requests for tickets or "spares" during the hours before the build-up. Many of those warned off by the police were seen to return to the area. Some were hanging about on the bridge. Again, however, the police witnesses who most impressed me did not consider the number of ticketless fans to be inordinately large. This accords with two other sources of evidence.
201. First, there was a wide range of witnesses who observed inside the ground that the Liverpool end was at a late stage well below capacity save for pens 3 and 4. The north stand still had many empty seats and the wing pens were sparse. The match being a sell-out, there were clearly many ticket holders to come and they could account for the large crowd still outside the turnstiles. Had the Liverpool accommodation been full by 2.40 pm, one could have inferred that most or much of the large crowd outside lacked tickets.
202. Secondly, such figures as are available from the Club's electronic monitoring system and from analyses by the HSE suggest that no great number entered without tickets. They show that the number who passed through turnstiles A to G plus those who entered through gate C roughly equalled the terrace capacity figure of 10,100 for which tickets had been sold. The Club's record showed 7,038 passed through turnstiles A to G. However, the counting mechanism on turnstile G was defective, so the HSE did a study using the video film and projecting figures from the other turnstiles. This gave an assessment of 7,494, with a maximum of 7,644 passing through A to G. Again, using the video, the HSE assessed the number who entered the ground whilst gate C was open at 2,240 with a maximum of 2,480. Accordingly, the HSE's best estimate of the total entering through gate C and turnstiles A to G was 9,734 with a maximum of 10,124. I recognise that these can only be rough checks because, for example, some with terrace tickets were allowed through turnstiles 1 to 16 and there would be other similar factors which have not formed part of the assessment. Nevertheless, the figures do suggest that there was not a very significant body of ticketless fans in the crowd which built up.
....
208. I have already found that there was not an abnormally large number of fans without tickets on this occasion. With one or two exceptions, the police witnesses themselves did not subscribe to the "conspiracy" theory. I am satisfied that the large concentration at Leppings Lane from 2.30 pm to 2.50 pm did not arrive as a result of any concerted plan. There were, I accept, small groups without tickets who were willing to exploit any adventitious chance of getting into the ground. They, together with the minority who had drunk too much, certainly aggravated the problem faced by the police. But that main problem was simply one of large numbers packed into the small area outside the turnstiles.

Reading this thread has been quite alarming. Myths and prejudices still being perpetuated. Police were under prepared, yes. a few drunks, yes (as it says in the interim report up there ^ - also subquestions, was a) people turning up to games ticketless a common occurrence in the 80s and b) did Liverpool fans have a 'reputation' among police and other fans after Heysel?). A completel failure to communicate with fans or each other by the police, aye. All these factors exarcerbated the problem of congestion outside the turnstiles.

But criminal checks being done on victims, unnecessary and unrecorded blood-alcohol being taken on victims (alive and dead,) senior police figures editing and doctoring junior officers' reports intended for the Taylor Report to put the south yorkshire police in a more positive lgiht...this isn't something you can just dismiss. Even for the most ardent cynic it is sobering reading at the very least. It'll take a while to digest.

In a beautifully ironic twist, we can now label them all conspiracy theorists/looneys/anti-establishments/some other nonsense. After all, The Prime Minister says they're talking shite. So which infallible authority figure is wrong, The Prime Minister or The Police? (who themselves have apologised for what amounts to committing perjury). Perhaps we should lock them all up and throw away the key?

[Verbal]

Dunno. It's going to take ages for the data and stuff to be digested. Is there a realistic chance of trials?

I'm getting tired so will retire and return to this thread with fresh eyes tomorrow.

[bobo the clown]

I shall spend the next 23 years campaigning for the new "truth" to be shown to be a load of soft-arsed drivel. Until then I shall seek 'Justice'. I feel confident that if I say it long enough & often enough it will eventually be proven to be true.

Bobo are you seriously suggesting that this new inquiry is flawed and there is a cover up preventing any criticism of the fans coming out?

Is it not possible that all the slurs directed at the fans that you have chosen to believe these last 23 years were just that? Slurs?

I don't see why an intelligent, normally reasonable chap, cant accept the word of 2 enquiries, the Prime Minister, the Chief of Sth Yorkshire Police and 450,000 documents that said the fans were not to blame.

Well that logic would have closed the matter 23 years ago, now wouldn't it.

Plus ... I don't like Scousers.

[malcd1]

I personally think the main reason for this disaster was football itself. In the 1980's all football fans were treated no better than animals. Herded from coaches/trains to the stadium, shoved in a stand with high fences and herded back out again. All football fans were treated as hooligans. Football supporters were to blame for that reputation. Not all fans, just a minority.

Most football stadiums were a similar design. Free movement into different areas of a stand causing packed areas while some were virtually empty. The best positions were directly behind the goal and everyone wanted the best views. At Hillsborough the entire end was divided into small pens with no restriction of numbers in each. This sort of disaster had been waiting to happen due poor stadium design.

Then little pricks who pushed from the back every time there was a goalmouth incident. I can remember being pushed at least a dozen rows further down by a crowd surge from the back. Normally teenagers having a 'laugh'.

Then there are the police who made some really, really bad errors of judgement. Their culpability has been made considerably worse by trying to discredit the Liverpool fans, especially the ones who died and falsifying the statements.

Of course there will be other factors that wouldn't have helped such as the gates being opened to prevent a crush outside.

I think football has finally learnt from these mistakes but it normally takes a serious incident, such as Bradford, for anything to be done.

[jaffka]

I shall spend the next 23 years campaigning for the new "truth" to be shown to be a load of soft-arsed drivel. Until then I shall seek 'Justice'. I feel confident that if I say it long enough & often enough it will eventually be proven to be true.

Bobo are you seriously suggesting that this new inquiry is flawed and there is a cover up preventing any criticism of the fans coming out?

Is it not possible that all the slurs directed at the fans that you have chosen to believe these last 23 years were just that? Slurs?

I don't see why an intelligent, normally reasonable chap, cant accept the word of 2 enquiries, the Prime Minister, the Chief of Sth Yorkshire Police and 450,000 documents that said the fans were not to blame.

Well that logic would have closed the matter 23 years ago, now wouldn't it.

Plus ... I don't like Scousers.

I really dont see much to like about them.

[Lord Kangana]

Indeed, but last time I checked unfortunately even people you dislike are entitled to justice.

Otherwise I'd have already pissed on Kelvin MacKenzie just after I'd crushed him to death. But I can't. The massive cvnt*.


*Now a matter of public record.

[jaffka]

although i can say that scouse women are easy lays