Hillsborough Disaster

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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by bobo the clown » Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:12 pm

Fair enough, as, of course not only have Lerpool fans got previous for turning up ticketless and rushing gates, but they have SUBSEQUENT also ...
At the 2007 UEFA Champions League Final trouble occurred after thousands of ticketless Liverpool supporters stormed the turnstiles, meaning some 2000 fans with genuine tickets were denied entry. Gaillard said that the problems were typical of the behaviour of some Liverpool supporters during the past four years, branding them the worst in Europe; despite earlier saying that both sets of supporters 'have a tradition of good behaviour'.

He accused Liverpool supporters of stealing tickets "out of the hands of children" and said "we know what happened in Athens and Liverpool fans were the cause of most of the trouble there". This was seen by some as UEFA attempting to avoid the blame for the disorganisation of the final, and they were accused by Richard Caborn as entering into the blame game. This also resulted in Gaillard being heavily criticised by Liverpool co-owner Tom Hicks.
William Gaillard, UEFA Coomunications chief remarked following the European Cup Final in Istanbul.
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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by Harry Genshaw » Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:17 pm

Surely no one can doubt after today that the Liverpool fans and the City as a whole suffered a great injustice that day?

160 odd changes to official records by the Police and an instruction that they were not to use the words chaos or any derivative in their report. The myth of drunk and ticketless fans finally laid to rest.

Liverpool may have a reputation amongst some as self pity city but it's that togetherness and that stubborn determination that led to todays events. The Chief Super calls it the biggest cover up in Policing history and Kelvin McKenzie apologies for 'The Truth' and what he now accepts as lies.

I dont give a flying one if some folk are after compensation. After seeing their loved ones killed, then blamed for over 20 years for a disaster in which they were totally blameless, then they deserve every penny. They also deserve legal redress from the corrupt officials that allowed this to happen.

RIP the 96.
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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by blurred » Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:18 pm

bobo the clown wrote:William Gaillard, UEFA Coomunications chief remarked following the European Cup Final in Istanbul.
Actually that was post-Athens.

Post-Istanbul he remarked 'Liverpool fans are wonderful people', and post-Dortmund in 2001 UEFA saw fit to give Liverpool the fans' of the year award. Of course, we've always been trouble, haven't we Mr Gaillard, that's why you commended us and gave us an award? That makes sense. Nothing at all to do with deflecting from the fact that Uefa had organised a final in a stadium that wasn't fit for purpose just like, I don't know, South Yorkshire police decided to deflect blame for their failings by blaming the fans?

Anyway, this isn't a thread about Gaillard, or Uefa, or Athens (which has its own peculiar circumstances). It's about Hillsborugh.

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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by blurred » Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:19 pm

Harry Genshaw wrote:Surely no one can doubt after today that the Liverpool fans and the City as a whole suffered a great injustice that day?
Of course they can, because it's much easy to be lazy and bash scousers than accept that what people have been campaigning for for 23 years might just have a shred of truth in it. And by shred of truth I mean a massive f*cking barrowload of truth.

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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by CrazyHorse » Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:49 pm

Wind your neck in blurred. Quit being all angry and telling folk to fck off.
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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by blurred » Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:55 pm

CrazyHorse wrote:Wind your neck in blurred. Quit being all angry and telling folk to fck off.
If people stop slandering and talking bollocks then I gladly will.

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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by CAPSLOCK » Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:04 pm

Soft arse

Anyway, so I understand

Now we (whining scousers) like what's being said, it now becomes truth

Is that how it works

As somebody who was around in the 80's I know how mobs of excitable lads behaved

No report that fully exonnerates LFC supporters is worth a toss, imo

Similarly, any report that absolves The FA, Sheff Wed and the emergency services of blame
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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by thebish » Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:20 pm

bobo the clown wrote: The police errors occured because of the late-comers, many pissed, a good number ticketless, who caused panic outside & the police & stewards wrongly, but for what they thought were good reasons & opened gates leading to the horrific crushing.

I haven't read the latest report - but is this their conclusion of what happened?

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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by Annoyed Grunt » Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:38 pm

thebish wrote:
bobo the clown wrote: The police errors occured because of the late-comers, many pissed, a good number ticketless, who caused panic outside & the police & stewards wrongly, but for what they thought were good reasons & opened gates leading to the horrific crushing.

I haven't read the latest report - but is this their conclusion of what happened?
It's been known for years that wasn't the cause at all.

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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by TANGODANCER » Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:52 pm

blurred wrote:
CrazyHorse wrote:Wind your neck in blurred. Quit being all angry and telling folk to fck off.
If people stop slandering and talking bollocks then I gladly will.
Bluured, respectfully, where you at Hillsboro that day? See, having met you, I doubt you were old enough to be there. If not, then you have no more right to comment than I have, and you might notice I'm not doing that, or telling anyone to fkcuk off. The tragedy happened and not a one on here regards it as anything but a tragedy, or is disrespecting those dead. What it wasn't is a deliberate happening on anyone's part. As such, now you have the truth of it, will it finally be put to bed?
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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by blurred » Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:58 pm

CAPSLOCK wrote:Soft arse

Anyway, so I understand

Now we (whining scousers) like what's being said, it now becomes truth

Is that how it works
No, because it's been known since the Taylor report that the cause of the disaster was the catastophic failure of police control. I say 'known', but that's not really the case, as one or two people in this thread have demonstrated. So many people continue to believe the lies spread by South Yorkshire police and large sections of the media. It's about the truth being brought to light in a forensic and open process. More than 400,000 documents have been analysed, and the conclusions of the report are there for all to read.

Every time someone repeats any of the 'tanked-up, late-arriving, ticketless' allegations they only go to show themselves as a lazy moron.

When even the moral vacuum that is Kelvin MacKenzie has decided to apologise, you might just need to take a look at yourselves if you still think that Liverpool fans were to blame, rather than the subject of a colossal and calculated cover-up by the upper echelons of the Police in an attempt to smear football fans and deflect blame away from themselves. I happen to think his apology isn't necessarily sincere, but that's beside the point. We know that they lied. We know that the environment into which they were put was unsafe. We know that the reactions and decisions made by those on the day were woefully inadequate and added to the death count. We know that they weren't given a proper inquest into their deaths. We know that the authorities conspired to pervert the course of justice.

Hopefully the rest of the country will wake up and realise the truth. Judging by the response of some, I won't necessarily hold my breath, but I'm thankful that the families have at least got some semblance of fair treatment today in the exposing of the horrific behaviour of those who were supposed to protect them 23 years ago.

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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by blurred » Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:09 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
blurred wrote:
CrazyHorse wrote:Wind your neck in blurred. Quit being all angry and telling folk to fck off.
If people stop slandering and talking bollocks then I gladly will.
Bluured, respectfully, where you at Hillsboro that day? See, having met you, I doubt you were old enough to be there. If not, then you have no more right to comment than I have, and you might notice I'm not doing that, or telling anyone to fkcuk off.
I don't see what difference it makes whether I was there or not. Why do you have to be present at an event to have an opinion on it? Did you have to be in Bogside in '72 to feel outraged at what happened on Bloody Sunday? Don't be absurd.
TANGODANCER wrote:The tragedy happened and not a one on here regards it as anything but a tragedy, or is disrespecting those dead.
Respectfully, I disagree. People continuously disrespect those dead, and those who survived, and not just on here.

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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by CAPSLOCK » Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:15 pm

Not having it

Why did the police open the gates

Devilment?

For a laugh?
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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by thebish » Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:17 pm

CAPSLOCK wrote:Not having it

Why did the police open the gates

Devilment?

For a laugh?
why does it have to be either of your options? could it not be because they made a massive mistake?

(and then covered it up by systematically blaming the fans?)

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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by jaffka » Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:18 pm

CAPSLOCK wrote:Not having it

Why did the police open the gates

Devilment?

For a laugh?
+1

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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by benn » Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:19 pm

bobo the clown wrote:The police errors occured because of the late-comers, many pissed, a good number ticketless, who caused panic outside & the police & stewards wrongly, but for what they thought were good reasons & opened gates leading to the horrific crushing.

It was a terrible error. Not planned murder. Subsequent cover-ups were poor & not acceptable, though I have to say understandable once the wrath of the media got going.
Bobo in answer to this and your prior question as to why? to my first post i would say that on many bwfc forums it has been popular and fashionable to degenerate the Liverpool people as to their involvement and "denial" into what happened. Indeed given the Taylor report and thousands of column inches written since I too have felt compelled to believe that they were complicit in the deaths of their own.

However on reflection when one looks at the facts and todays report it becomes clear that being drunk, ticketless or climbing over turnstiles had little contribution to the deaths at Hillsborough. Indeed most of those behavioural problems were present in 1946 at the Burnden disaster but I do not recall any negative press directed at the bolton or stoke fans that day.

Many Bolton fans in their angst towards the scousers bring up Heysel. I Would say to them that Bolton fans of the 70's and 80's were no different and I was in many a huge mob of Bolton in the 70's who "charged" the opposition fans on the terraces without a thought to the consequences, we were lucky we killed no one. As for ticketless, again me and my teenage mates in the 70s got into St James park, Elland Rd and the Baseball ground without tickets, for big sellout cup games by storming a turnstile, many a bolton fan did. So lets not be sanctimonious about this type of behaviour being typical of only scousers.

Today the truth came out. There were many political reasons for the cover up and why it succeeded but I am afraid today you are flogging a dead horse.
Last edited by benn on Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by Wandering Willy » Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:20 pm

blurred wrote:
CAPSLOCK wrote:Soft arse

Anyway, so I understand

Now we (whining scousers) like what's being said, it now becomes truth

Is that how it works
Every time someone repeats any of the 'tanked-up, late-arriving, ticketless' allegations they only go to show themselves as a lazy moron.
And yet you refuse to acknowledge the possibility that some "fans" contributed to the tragedy despite the utterly appalling behaviour of Liverpool fans throughout the eighties.

Anyone who disagrees is a moron?
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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by Harry Genshaw » Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:25 pm

It concerns me that some folk are letting their hatred of scousers, Liverpool or LFC cloud their usually sound judgement.

Where they were from or who they supported is irrelevant. They were football fans. It could easily have been any of us on here

I cant imagine watching a loved one die. Watching a loved one die in your arms at 4pm and then be told you're wrong as everyone was already dead by 3.15. Then be asked "Did he have a ticket?" or "was he drunk?". Who wouldn't be screaming at the injustice of that?

The Police & Coroners response to close ranks and look to blame the victims should concern us all as a society as it's still going on - the deaths of Jean Charles De Menezes and Ian Tomlinson immediately spring to mind.

No doubt mistakes were made that day by some Police officers who let the reputation of Liverpool fans & football fans in general, cloud their judgement. I think thats understandable. Whats unforgiveable is the Polices response afterwards.
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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by blurred » Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:31 pm

CAPSLOCK wrote:Not having it

Why did the police open the gates

Devilment?

For a laugh?
Read the Taylor Report. Seriously. The chain of causation is pretty long and complex. The 'simple' reason for opening the gates were because a dangerous crush was developing outside the ground in the bottleneck area of the Leppings Lane.

Why was that? Well, for a lot of reasons (and this isn't an exhaustive list, but some of the reasons I can come up with off the top of my head).

Because the police had refused requests to delay the kick-off to allow fans to enter more slowly and thus avoid some of the desperation of people to get in before kick-off.

Because the police hadn't set up filtering systems that had been in place at previous semi-finals at Hillsborough to manage the arrival of fans at the Leppings Lane end, leading to the crush outside.

Because the police didn't notice that the crush was building up in enough time to take any other course of action.

Because there weren't enough turnstiles at that end of the ground to deal with the number of fans it was required to admit.

Because Liverpool, despite having more fans, were given the 'wrong' end of the stadium, with far fewer turnstiles per number of tickets.

Because lessons hadn't been learned from previous events at the ground at which crushes had developed.

Because the match commander had no experience of events at the ground.

Because Police in the 1980s saw fans as hooligans rather than as fans.

Largely it was because the police in charge made a mistake, that they later compounded with other mistakes which they immediately tried to cover up with lies.

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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by boltonboris » Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:34 pm

You're missing one... It's do with people not having tickets, yet gaining entry to the stadium. Did this happen? Simple yes or no.
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