Hillsborough Disaster

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thebish
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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by thebish » Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:04 am

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
jaffka wrote:
thebish wrote:
jaffka wrote:
Now this is the point that someone else has made about you sticking your snecker in.

My point is, that I refuse to accept that the drunken lout Liverpool fans who clearly have a responsibility of this incident which was horrendous cannot be absolved. Which in my view some are saying.
:conf: dunno why you seem to think you have any more right to post on a thread than I have?? what is that all about?? This is a forum - if you want a private conversation with someone - then that's what the PM facility is for.. otherwise - I'm afraid it's open for us all to join in - that's kind-of what a forum is about!!

which drunken lout Liverpool fans are you thinking of?
obviously the ones that your not :roll:
Can I join in?
not if you haven't been invited by CAPS or Jaffka...
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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by CAPSLOCK » Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:11 am

To be honest, seeing as the wannabe scouser won't answer the question, you may as well answer for him, too

Do you accept the Liverpool fans should carry some blame for what happened

A simple yes or no will suffice
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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by thebish » Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:18 am

CAPSLOCK wrote:To be honest, seeing as the wannabe scouser won't answer the question, you may as well answer for him, too

Do you accept the Liverpool fans should carry some blame for what happened

A simple yes or no will suffice
no - assuming that by "what happened" you mean the deaths of 96 people and injuries to many more.
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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by blurred » Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:31 am

CAPSLOCK wrote:To be honest, seeing as the wannabe scouser won't answer the question, you may as well answer for him, too

Do you accept the Liverpool fans should carry some blame for what happened

A simple yes or no will suffice
I asked whether by 'played a part' you meant 'were culpable' - you didn't reply.

To answer that, were Liverpool fans were culpable for the deaths of 96 and injuries to more than 700 others? I'd say no. But don't take my word for it.

So would the Hillsborough Independent Panel that spent more than 2 years looking into 450,000 pieces of documentary evidence.

And so would Lord Justice Taylor who reviewed 3,776 written statements of evidence, 1,550 letters, 71 hours of video footage and listened to evidence of 174 witnesses.

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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by TANGODANCER » Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:08 pm

The sheer hypocracy of it all. The Sun, band-waggon jumping and blasting those to blame. What an absolute double-dyed rag of a paper this tripe sheet is. Wife insists she only gets it for the crosswords.
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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by CAPSLOCK » Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:10 pm

blurred wrote:
CAPSLOCK wrote:To be honest, seeing as the wannabe scouser won't answer the question, you may as well answer for him, too

Do you accept the Liverpool fans should carry some blame for what happened

A simple yes or no will suffice
I asked whether by 'played a part' you meant 'were culpable' - you didn't reply.
Sorry, missed that

I've just checked the definition of culpable and I disagree with Justice Taylor


Let's try 'do you accept the Liverpool fans should carry some blame for what happened'
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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by Big_Sharps » Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:39 pm

I do and CAPSLOCK is right.

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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by blurred » Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:50 pm

We're now getting into semantics. Blame/Culpability/Responsibility are all the same thing.

No, I don't think Liverpool fans were to blame. No, I don't think they were culpable. No, I don't think they were responsible for what happened.

Replace Liverpool fans with Tottenham fans in 1981. Were they to blame for the 38 injuries caused in a crush on the Leppings Lane that saw hundreds of them spill onto the pitch after the police opened a gater to avoid being crushed to death? No. Were the Leeds fans to blame for the crush outside in 1987 when the police delayed the kick off? No. Were the Liverpool fans to blame for the crush in 1988 that wasn't fatal? No. Did the police make the same failings on those days that they did in 1989? No.

Those failings in 1989, allied to a large number of other factors, led to a far greater disaster and ultimately to the scale of the loss of life. Football crowds, regardless of club affiliation, had found that the Leppings Lane was a dangerous place for a long time (and not just at semi-finals). The fact that nobody had died until 1989 was fortunate for those that'd been before.

There's nothing that I've seen in the various reports, accounts or footage that puts the blame on those who were there that day. They didn't act differently to fans in previous semi-finals, whether Liverpool fans or otherwise.
Last edited by blurred on Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:52 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by boltonboris » Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:32 pm

His asking "partly" FFS.. Your constant deflections are probably answering the question for him tbh.
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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by blurred » Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:38 pm

boltonboris wrote:His asking "partly" FFS.. Your constant deflections are probably answering the question for him tbh.
Point out in the conclusions of the Taylor Report, or the Independent Hillsborough Panel Report, where it says fans were partly to blame then. Go on. Or CAPSLOCK can do it. Or anyone.

Why do you presume such expert status of 'oh, the fans must've been partly to blame' when senior judges and independent panels have looked at it and studied it in the most detail and gone through hours of footage and testimony and hundreds of thousands of documents haven't found the fans at fault.

When any of the experts are willing to 'partly' blame fans, then I will too. But none of them are, and they know a hell of a lot more about it than me and you.

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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by boltonboris » Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:54 pm

You're being told exactly what you want to hear in order to try and put the whole thing to bed.
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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by dave1980 » Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:01 pm

Are you telling us that all 10,000 Liverpool fans in the Leppings Lane end behaved impeccably that day?

If so you are wrong and deep down, you know you are wrong.

It might only have been as little as 0.5% (50 people) of the fans, but there will have been some that "contributed" towards what was a tragic accident.

I wasn't there that day, hell I'm not even old enough to have experienced football in the 70's & 80's but I know full well that during that era the behaviour of a minority of all football fans was questionable.

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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by TANGODANCER » Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:45 pm

Hard to put the words blame and fault to something like this. The words tend towards indicating any of it was a deliberate act. It's all in retrospect. Police don't act unless there's something to act on. Solving a crime only happens after one's been committed. Not one person involved in any of it would have foreseen or wanted this sort of tragedy to happen.
The only real crime amongst it was the police lying and instituting a cover-up when they got the blame. Then again, who would readily accept the blame for ninety-odd people dying?
Buck-passing became rampant with everybody blaming everyone else. Total panic.

The venue was wrong, the gate situation was wrong, too many people trying to get into a space that wouldn't take them was wrong. Police decisions based on panic were wrong. Their actions after it happened were wrong because people had died and they were readily in line for the blame. They saw where it was all heading and lied about things because they didn't want the blame for the ninety-odd deaths. Who would? The last police chief was experienced and he wouldn't have allowed it to happen! How can that be stated as a truth?

Bottom line, it was an awful tragedy that happened because people were crushed to death by those behind them coming forward and there was nowhere to go. The police now have the blame, the fans are exonerated, heads will roll and it will end up costing somebody a fortune
in the name of justice. Let's hope it's done with. I'll offer a genuine R.I.P to the fans that died. They are free of any fault or blame for anything. The rest, who really knows?
The wisest and the best of men, nay, the wisest and best of their actions, may be rendered ridiculous by a person whose first object in life is a joke...Darcy. Pride and Prejudice.

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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by blurred » Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:07 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:The last police chief was experienced and he wouldn't have allowed it to happen! How can that be stated as a truth?
Because Duckenfield didn't implement the same safety measures that commanders had at previous years' games, namely the cordons around the ground to filter arrivals, the fact that kick-off had been delayed at Leeds' semi-final at the same venue 2 years before because of a build-up of crowds outside the turnstile area, the fact that they'd closed off entry to the central pens when they became full in 1988 to name just three.

It's hard to say for absolute certain, of course, but any one of those three measures (in fact, if they'd managed to do only one of them) would have gone a long way to preventing a huge loss of life on the day, notwithstanding the mistakes that were made before that and afterwards such as refusing to allow ambulances into the ground and the other operational mistakes.

The fact that they'd had effective crowd control measures in place at previous matches and had experience at the ground would make it a reasonably logical conclusion that an experienced match commander would've behaved differently, and would've saved at least part of the tragedy from occurring. If he'd managed two or three of the above, there might've been no deaths at all (that year).

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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by boltonboris » Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:16 pm

Lies= things you don't want to hear.

Gods honest truth = what you DO want to hear.
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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by CAPSLOCK » Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:12 pm

At this rate, SYP will be getting blamed for Heysel and that vile creature Shields before the weekend is out

Anyway, I'm leaving this thread now, cos opinions are so entrenched, no discussion is going to change anything

I'll end by saying nobody should ever die over a game of football

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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by jaffka » Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:59 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
jaffka wrote:
thebish wrote:
jaffka wrote:
Now this is the point that someone else has made about you sticking your snecker in.

My point is, that I refuse to accept that the drunken lout Liverpool fans who clearly have a responsibility of this incident which was horrendous cannot be absolved. Which in my view some are saying.
:conf: dunno why you seem to think you have any more right to post on a thread than I have?? what is that all about?? This is a forum - if you want a private conversation with someone - then that's what the PM facility is for.. otherwise - I'm afraid it's open for us all to join in - that's kind-of what a forum is about!!

which drunken lout Liverpool fans are you thinking of?
obviously the ones that your not :roll:
Can I join in?

Now, Mr. Jaffka I don't know you from Bogdan, but it would appear to me that your dialectical critique requires a certain amount of honing. :|
:conf:

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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by jaffka » Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:01 pm

thebish wrote:
jaffka wrote:
thebish wrote:
jaffka wrote:
Now this is the point that someone else has made about you sticking your snecker in.

My point is, that I refuse to accept that the drunken lout Liverpool fans who clearly have a responsibility of this incident which was horrendous cannot be absolved. Which in my view some are saying.
:conf: dunno why you seem to think you have any more right to post on a thread than I have?? what is that all about?? This is a forum - if you want a private conversation with someone - then that's what the PM facility is for.. otherwise - I'm afraid it's open for us all to join in - that's kind-of what a forum is about!!

which drunken lout Liverpool fans are you thinking of?
obviously the ones that your not :roll:
ahh - you mean some made up ones who were not there... I see!
In lala world where you live maybe

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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by Harry Genshaw » Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:17 pm

I find it bizarre that some folk are still trying to apportion some of the blame on the fans, when the very people that gave credence to that lie have all disassociated themselves from it :conf:
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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by jaffka » Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:32 pm

Because I for one am not in the spotlight in public life and having nothing to lose, that thing to lose those celebrating this is votes. Dont get too excited.

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