Hillsborough Disaster

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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by thebish » Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:45 pm

CAPSLOCK wrote:Now Norman Bettison is telling lies...
I had you down as many things - but not as a member of the Mr Gullible McGullible's fluffy gullible bunny club...

anyway - his current view (as of today) is that Liverpool fans were "in no way to blame" for the disaster...
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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by jaffka » Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:46 pm

thebish wrote:
CAPSLOCK wrote:Now Norman Bettison is telling lies...
I had you down as many things - but not as a member of the Mr Gullible McGullible's fluffy gullible bunny club...

anyway - his current view (as of today) is that Liverpool fans were "in no way to blame" for the disaster...
does the Phil Thompson joke work with you?

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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by Harry Genshaw » Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:49 pm

jaffka wrote:Because I for one am not in the spotlight in public life and having nothing to lose, that thing to lose those celebrating this is votes. Dont get too excited.
Have you ever voted for Kelvin McKenzie then? :roll:
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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by jaffka » Fri Sep 14, 2012 8:12 pm

Harry Genshaw wrote:
jaffka wrote:Because I for one am not in the spotlight in public life and having nothing to lose, that thing to lose those celebrating this is votes. Dont get too excited.
Have you ever voted for Kelvin McKenzie then? :roll:
has your teddie been put back in the pram?

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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by Harry Genshaw » Fri Sep 14, 2012 8:56 pm

jaffka wrote:
Harry Genshaw wrote:
jaffka wrote:Because I for one am not in the spotlight in public life and having nothing to lose, that thing to lose those celebrating this is votes. Dont get too excited.
Have you ever voted for Kelvin McKenzie then? :roll:
has your teddie been put back in the pram?
I just can't compete with your reasoned & mature argument.
:lmfao:
I'm out!
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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by jaffka » Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:00 pm

Another one bites the dust then

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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by bw@bw » Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:24 pm

I have to say that this is the single most depressing thread I can recall on this site.
I have no love for Liverpool – City or Club, but some of the prejudice on this thread is quite disgusting.
I do worry that the Investigation committee are using hindsight and 2012 standards and mindsets in judging events in a different age. For example – in criticising the choice of Hillsborough – they are overlooking the fact that it was one of the most modern stadiums in the country – having been rebuilt in 1966 for the World Cup.
In a similar way – today’s obituary of Prof Sid Watkins – the medic who transformed Formula 1 safety – quotes examples of what was taken for granted then but which would horrify us now.
On the other hand – the decision to put the Liverpool fans in Leppings Lane rather than the Spion Kop (much bigger and better access) always did seem crazy.
However, it is the job of the public authorities to ensure public safety and to be accountable for their actions. I am sure that there are many more details uncovered in the report, and it is unfair to expect the rank and file officers to carry the can for all the actions / omissions. However the senior officers in South Yorkshire Police set about their job in such a way that they turned an awkward situation into a disaster – and the way they trained and managed their officers was more like an army of oppression – hit first and ask questions later. As a result, by reacting as they had been trained to do the rank and file officers made a bad situation much worse.
That was bad enough – but the subsequent cover up – collaborating to fabricate false evidence of their own and amend that of witnesses is almost beyond belief. Except that this was the 1980’s and our prime minister had turned the police into a political force – even (or especially) in the Socialist Republic of South Yorkshire – and encouraged them to believe they were above the law.
Nothing can bring the 96 back – and not much can be of comfort to their surviving families. But at the very least, public officials who lie in court and falsify evidence have to be charged with perjury, conspiracy and perverting the course of justice.
At least that should ensure that (for a while) our leaders understand that they will be held accountable for their actions and deliberate omissions – even if it takes over 20 years.
I lived in Sheffield for a number of years – and far from thinking that Liverpool fans were to blame my reaction was “There but for the grace of god go I” – it could have happened to any of us – the main thing that prevented it was that there was no chance of the Wanderers getting to such a big match in those days.
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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by malcd1 » Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:43 pm

bw@bw wrote:I have to say that this is the single most depressing thread I can recall on this site.
I have no love for Liverpool – City or Club, but some of the prejudice on this thread is quite disgusting.
I do worry that the Investigation committee are using hindsight and 2012 standards and mindsets in judging events in a different age. For example – in criticising the choice of Hillsborough – they are overlooking the fact that it was one of the most modern stadiums in the country – having been rebuilt in 1966 for the World Cup.
In a similar way – today’s obituary of Prof Sid Watkins – the medic who transformed Formula 1 safety – quotes examples of what was taken for granted then but which would horrify us now.
On the other hand – the decision to put the Liverpool fans in Leppings Lane rather than the Spion Kop (much bigger and better access) always did seem crazy.
However, it is the job of the public authorities to ensure public safety and to be accountable for their actions. I am sure that there are many more details uncovered in the report, and it is unfair to expect the rank and file officers to carry the can for all the actions / omissions. However the senior officers in South Yorkshire Police set about their job in such a way that they turned an awkward situation into a disaster – and the way they trained and managed their officers was more like an army of oppression – hit first and ask questions later. As a result, by reacting as they had been trained to do the rank and file officers made a bad situation much worse.
That was bad enough – but the subsequent cover up – collaborating to fabricate false evidence of their own and amend that of witnesses is almost beyond belief. Except that this was the 1980’s and our prime minister had turned the police into a political force – even (or especially) in the Socialist Republic of South Yorkshire – and encouraged them to believe they were above the law.
Nothing can bring the 96 back – and not much can be of comfort to their surviving families. But at the very least, public officials who lie in court and falsify evidence have to be charged with perjury, conspiracy and perverting the course of justice.
At least that should ensure that (for a while) our leaders understand that they will be held accountable for their actions and deliberate omissions – even if it takes over 20 years.
I lived in Sheffield for a number of years – and far from thinking that Liverpool fans were to blame my reaction was “There but for the grace of god go I” – it could have happened to any of us – the main thing that prevented it was that there was no chance of the Wanderers getting to such a big match in those days.
Probably the best comments on this thread.

I would just add that this was also the 1980's, the time of football hooliganism and large fences. All are contributing factors of the way policing of football matches was carried out in those days. I am glad thing have improved considerably, within the stadiums at least.
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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by Prufrock » Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:47 pm

This thread is so much fail it is untrue.

In my view the events up to the deaths were a horrendous tragedy. Nobody, not even SWP wanted 96 people to die that day. The best thing we can do is to try to go back over it to find out what went wrong and what can be done to stop it ever happening again. Clearly it seems organisational failings were the main cause. Even if you reject the evidence given that Liverpool fans caused the crush (and to reject evidence out of hand because you are contrary or prejudiced is not a triumph. Shouting 'I'm allowed my view' is correct - even idiots are allowed their idiocy, and I mean that sincerely) to blame the people at the back is very harsh. If there were to be a surge in a similar situation now (assuming one could arise, which I hope it couldn't) folk imagine the crowd would stop shoving forward. If they are correct (and having been in 'crush' situations at gigs and what not, I'm not sure it is that easy) the reason they would stop is because 96 people being crushed to death is printed on our consciousness. The Liverpool fans turned up that day to watch a football match.

The cover-up afterwards is truly appalling.

This isn't about compensation. It has long been accepted the failings that day were the Police's. If not in the entirety, then certainly enough to sue for damages. The two big cases in claiming for psychiatric harm come from Hillsborough. Any compensation claims have already been and gone. This is about public perception.
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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by Worthy4England » Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:05 am

Prufrock wrote:This thread is so much fail it is untrue.
Yup.

Although as some other poster said "with the benefit of hindsight" reports are generally way easier to write, than it is to sort out an unfolding event as it occurs.

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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by bw@bw » Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:12 am

Prufrock wrote:This thread is so much fail it is untrue.

In my view the events up to the deaths were a horrendous tragedy. Nobody, not even SWP wanted 96 people to die that day. The best thing we can do is to try to go back over it to find out what went wrong and what can be done to stop it ever happening again. Clearly it seems organisational failings were the main cause. Even if you reject the evidence given that Liverpool fans caused the crush (and to reject evidence out of hand because you are contrary or prejudiced is not a triumph. Shouting 'I'm allowed my view' is correct - even idiots are allowed their idiocy, and I mean that sincerely) to blame the people at the back is very harsh. If there were to be a surge in a similar situation now (assuming one could arise, which I hope it couldn't) folk imagine the crowd would stop shoving forward. If they are correct (and having been in 'crush' situations at gigs and what not, I'm not sure it is that easy) the reason they would stop is because 96 people being crushed to death is printed on our consciousness. The Liverpool fans turned up that day to watch a football match.

The cover-up afterwards is truly appalling.

This isn't about compensation. It has long been accepted the failings that day were the Police's. If not in the entirety, then certainly enough to sue for damages. The two big cases in claiming for psychiatric harm come from Hillsborough. Any compensation claims have already been and gone. This is about public perception.
For the Families and others in Liverpool it is about public perception.

But for me and millions of others it is about ensuring that anyone in public office has to stick to the law and their responsibilities and not try to ride roughshod over ordinary people.

There were no doubt lots of contributory factors to the disaster - there usually are - but the thing which made a bad situation into a disaster was the belief among a small number of senior officers in South Yorkshire Police that human beings could and should be treated like cattle - and that it was within the rights of the police to do anything they wanted.

That was bad enough - but the organised cover up and systematic falsification of evidence (the police knew they would be believed) meant that it became both a festering wound and a national scandal.

The Hillsborough inquiry has done the nation a great service. There have been a number of incidents where people have given the police the benefit of the doubt.
The sheer scale of the mismanagement and cover up in this case means that is just not possible - and that will mean that in future - inquiries into high profile police incidents will start from a more level base - and the inquisitors will be actively looking for evidence of cover up.
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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by Prufrock » Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:39 am

bw@bw wrote:
Prufrock wrote:This thread is so much fail it is untrue.

In my view the events up to the deaths were a horrendous tragedy. Nobody, not even SWP wanted 96 people to die that day. The best thing we can do is to try to go back over it to find out what went wrong and what can be done to stop it ever happening again. Clearly it seems organisational failings were the main cause. Even if you reject the evidence given that Liverpool fans caused the crush (and to reject evidence out of hand because you are contrary or prejudiced is not a triumph. Shouting 'I'm allowed my view' is correct - even idiots are allowed their idiocy, and I mean that sincerely) to blame the people at the back is very harsh. If there were to be a surge in a similar situation now (assuming one could arise, which I hope it couldn't) folk imagine the crowd would stop shoving forward. If they are correct (and having been in 'crush' situations at gigs and what not, I'm not sure it is that easy) the reason they would stop is because 96 people being crushed to death is printed on our consciousness. The Liverpool fans turned up that day to watch a football match.

The cover-up afterwards is truly appalling.

This isn't about compensation. It has long been accepted the failings that day were the Police's. If not in the entirety, then certainly enough to sue for damages. The two big cases in claiming for psychiatric harm come from Hillsborough. Any compensation claims have already been and gone. This is about public perception.
For the Families and others in Liverpool it is about public perception.

But for me and millions of others it is about ensuring that anyone in public office has to stick to the law and their responsibilities and not try to ride roughshod over ordinary people.

There were no doubt lots of contributory factors to the disaster - there usually are - but the thing which made a bad situation into a disaster was the belief among a small number of senior officers in South Yorkshire Police that human beings could and should be treated like cattle - and that it was within the rights of the police to do anything they wanted.

That was bad enough - but the organised cover up and systematic falsification of evidence (the police knew they would be believed) meant that it became both a festering wound and a national scandal.

The Hillsborough inquiry has done the nation a great service. There have been a number of incidents where people have given the police the benefit of the doubt.
The sheer scale of the mismanagement and cover up in this case means that is just not possible - and that will mean that in future - inquiries into high profile police incidents will start from a more level base - and the inquisitors will be actively looking for evidence of cover up.
Sorry, I meant this particular report. As far as I can tell nothing really new has come out here, this was all available in court cases, newspaper articles etc before the event, but this report has brought it all together and given it official 'legitimacy'. Or attempted to anyway. I think it has got to the stage now where some folk aren't going to be persuaded no matter what.
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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by Prufrock » Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:47 am

Worthy4England wrote:
Prufrock wrote:This thread is so much fail it is untrue.
Yup.

Although as some other poster said "with the benefit of hindsight" reports are generally way easier to write, than it is to sort out an unfolding event as it occurs.

Aye, that's what I was trying to get at. I think, much like the De Menezes situation, that it isn't particularly helpful to try to pin blame, criminal especially, on individuals for the events that led up to the crush. That isn't the same as writing it up as a 'shit happens' kind of job. Clearly some massive failings occurred. Warnings from previous crushes had not been heeded. I don't think anyone is going to be helped by pointing the finger at the bloke in charge and saying 'you killed 96 people', but it is important we get to the root of the causes, not only for the sake of the victims and their families, but to make sure it never happens again.

What happened afterwards though, the systematic cover-up, statements being rewritten, lies being fed to the papers, is truly appalling. There is no excuse for that.
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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by Dujon » Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:29 am

Has anyone actually read the report?

I'm taking my time over it. Nearly 400 pages of text, most of it reasonably concise, takes a bit of absorbing - hence I'm taking it in small bites and allowing it to 'sink in'. If you have not read it in full and you are interested http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/ ... report.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; will get you there. Download the PDF file and then save it to read when you have time.

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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by Prufrock » Sun Sep 16, 2012 1:47 am

On another note the BBC's coverage of it on both Football Focus and MOTD has been sycophantic vomit-inducing pish. Stirring music and Braveheart-esque voice-overs about a 'city wronged'. F*ck me.

Hansen nailed it for me. Rest was awful.
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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by TANGODANCER » Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:41 pm

Prufrock wrote:On another note the BBC's coverage of it on both Football Focus and MOTD has been sycophantic vomit-inducing pish. Stirring music and Braveheart-esque voice-overs about a 'city wronged'. F*ck me. Hansen nailed it for me. Rest was awful.
Have to say the parade of pictures while little fat Jerry wailed "you'll never walk alone" was too much for me. Turned over. Liverpool stuff and should stay there. Not disrespecting the dead in any way, but enough's enough.
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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by thebish » Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:09 pm

what was anyone doing watching MOTD anyway?? bloody fanboys!!
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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by midlands exile » Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:23 pm

Harry Genshaw wrote:I find it bizarre that some folk are still trying to apportion some of the blame on the fans, when the very people that gave credence to that lie have all disassociated themselves from it :conf:
Everyone is in agreement that all 96 victims were innocent of any wrongdoing. That Hillsborough and a great many other football stadia of the day were not only not fit for purpose, but literally deathtraps in waiting. That the football authorities were complacent and ignorant. That the police organisation on then day was woefully inadequate and subsequent cover up was despicable. That the editing of witness statements was criminal and those responsible must be punished.

But the first original uncensored statement I see not only includes removed references to the lack of organisation of the police, but also damning statements regarding a minority of the Liverpool fans. So we are only meant to believe the former and not the latter?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19571415" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Statements edited

Statements by a number of other police officers at the scene were also edited. Some were told that alterations were made to exclude personal opinion and to leave the document as a factual report.

Comments by a PC S Smith describing "a situation of almost total panic," among senior officers were among those edited.

The officer's potentially inflammatory comments comparing the tragedy to the Heysel Stadium disaster and blaming the deaths of innocent people on Liverpool fans were also removed.
Full statement here:
http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/ ... 650001.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Paragraphs 196 and 208 of Lord Justice Taylor's interim report also suggest that "complete and total exoneration" of all Liverpool fans of contributing in any way is perhaps selective judgement:
http://www.southyorks.police.uk/sites/d ... Report.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In my view some officers, seeking to rationalise their loss of control, overestimated the drunken element in the crowd. There certainly was such an element. There were youngsters influenced by drink and bravado pushing impatiently at the rear of the crowd thereby exacerbating the crush. But the more convincing police witnesses, including especially Detective Superintendent McKay and Chief Inspector Creaser as well as a number of responsible civilian witnesses, were in my view right in describing this element as a minority.
There were, I accept, small groups without tickets who were willing to exploit any adventitious chance of getting into the ground. They, together with the minority who had drunk too much, certainly aggravated the problem faced by the police. But that main problem was simply one of large numbers packed into the small area outside the turnstiles.
I have downloaded a copy of the new report and will read it in due course, hoping that such a tragic series of events never happens again. One question I can't help asking myself though is whether The Right Reverend James Jones, the Bishop of Liverpool, was the correct choice for the role of chair of the independent panel, considering the huge emotional tie he must have to the disaster.

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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by Bruce Rioja » Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:15 pm

thebish wrote:what was anyone doing watching MOTD anyway?? bloody fanboys!!
Not at all. One has to sit through the procession Fancy Dan's before being able to get deep down and dirty with Aldershot v Morecambe. ;)
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Re: Hillsborough Disaster

Post by Lord Kangana » Sat Sep 22, 2012 8:47 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:The sheer hypocracy of it all. The Sun, band-waggon jumping and blasting those to blame. What an absolute double-dyed rag of a paper this tripe sheet is. Wife insists she only gets it for the crosswords.
Are the pages more absorbent or something?

Seriously though, if you spent 5 minutes thinking about why The Sun is the biggest selling paper in this country, you could scare yourself. Crosswords aside :wink: .
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