Anyone watching the Hillsborough Panorama doc tonight?

[Harry Genshaw]

It's still unclear to me what the matters of substance are that we know now but didn't by the time of the Taylor report.

Not everyone was dead by 3.15
116 Police statements had been amended to remove all critical references to Police organisation

[jaffka]

It's still unclear to me what the matters of substance are that we know now but didn't by the time of the Taylor report.

Not everyone was dead by 3.15
116 Police statements had been amended to remove all critical references to Police organisation

How many scouters were there?

Not a single one of them did anything wrong?

F**kin grow up

[Harry Genshaw]

^

Oh dear. I'm not sure what a scouter is.
You (& other sad tw*ts like you) can try and hang onto your firmly held belief that it "was the fans fault" but then you're the kind of gullible git that Dukinfield was probably aiming for in his attempts to besmirch the victims.

If it makes you happy and makes you feel grown up, then keep ignoring all the evidence from Police Officers, Ambulance crews & fans who were there that day, that know the fans weren't to blame.

[jaffka]

^

Oh dear. I'm not sure what a scouter is.
You (& other sad tw*ts like you) can try and hang onto your firmly held belief that it "was the fans fault" but then you're the kind of gullible git that Dukinfield was probably aiming for in his attempts to besmirch the victims.

If it makes you happy and makes you feel grown up, then keep ignoring all the evidence from Police Officers, Ambulance crews & fans who were there that day, that know the fans weren't to blame.

you were there then

[a1]

I'd guessed that, but being 'warped in the thinkmeat'?

thinkmeat = the brain.

'warped'

Adjective

warped (comparative more warped, superlative most warped)

1. Distorted by warping; twisted out of shape
2. (figuratively) Of a person's mind, attitude, humour etc, perverse, strange, aberrant or deviant.

i kinda meant the 1st definition, the second kinda works too.

seen an ep once (of panarama) about cracked itv digital cards being the idea of an Uncle Rupert company. but afaik Sky had channels on ITV / On digital , so i cant see it working out, espesh as you could just cancel your sky and get a bent itv box.

it might work , but it wouldve been a very long game to play. it were quicker to wait for them to pay £300million for second division football. i remember people saying "fecking hell, i thought it were for the premier league('s tv rights)"

and all the interviewees seemed like actors out of them shitty football hooligan films rather than nerds with soldering irons.

every episode of panaorama plays out like one of them "dramadocumentries"

its a pisspoor programme.

[bobo the clown]

Then all is clear !!

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

It's still unclear to me what the matters of substance are that we know now but didn't by the time of the Taylor report.

Not everyone was dead by 3.15
116 Police statements had been amended to remove all critical references to Police organisation

It's long been known that not everyone was dead by 3.15. The fact that Tony Bland made it into 1993 made that one pretty clear. It's true that the coroner made a blunder in not accepting evidence after that cut-off. That was at least partly because peace time death counts on this scale are mercifully very rare, and he wasn't used to handling the sheer number of cases and volume of evidence. All that has changed recently is that the political will has been whipped up to do something about this blunder (not that it will have any substantive consequences, mind).

The process of amending statements has long been known and indeed was sanctioned by the Taylor Inquiry. Again, nobody had a manual about how run this kind of process on this scale - the problem of getting things done quickly enough comes up a few times in the records of how the process evolved.

And what you have said is inaccurate. 164 statements were edited by the solicitors (the number that were not edited is not given in the Hillsborough report), of which 116 had some, not "all", criticism of the police removed.

But look at the sort of things that were removed - it's references to 'chaos' and other generally critical mood music about the policing of situation. There is not a single substantive fact that the Taylor Inquiry was missing by the end of the this process - nor, actually, did it come close to missing the critical mood music from the submission as a whole in the end.

Far from a comprehensive whitewash from the top, what I read is a hopelessly inconsistent and haphazard intervention by the solicitors changing things in some places and not others, and lots of things that don't seem at all significant in the scheme of things (some would say that some of the volume of inconsequential amendments was part of racking up chargeable time on the file!). There are even 33 instances of criticism of Liverpool fans being edited out so it didn't reach the Inquiry - this is reluctantly acknowledged in the Hillsborough report.

The treatment of all this since the report as being some big smoking gun has been thoroughly ridiculous, but nobody will stick their head above the parapet to make this point because... what's the point in pissing into the very considerable wind on this issue now?

[Harry Genshaw]

Agreed. Some of the points now being highlighted were there if you looked hard enough and while I agree that there wasn't some huge establishment cover up - there is ample evidence to suggest Dukinfield did his utmost to protect the Police from blame and to discredit the supporters. Sadly, the Govt, Justice Taylor himself & large sections of the media seemed only to keen to accept his version of events - hence the feeling that the whole state was against the victims.

And what you have said is inaccurate. 164 statements were edited by the solicitors (the number that were not edited is not given in the Hillsborough report), of which 116 had some, not "all", criticism of the police removed.

Apologies. My scource here was purely from Panorama last night. Still an odd decision to ask for witnesss statements off everyone else but to ask for written recollections from officers. Then amend those very recollections. Dont know if you saw the prog mummy, but some of the ommissions could only have been to protect the boys in blue.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Apologies. My scource here was purely from Panorama last night. Still an odd decision to ask for witnesss statements off everyone else but to ask for written recollections from officers. Then amend those very recollections. Dont know if you saw the prog mummy, but some of the ommissions could only have been to protect the boys in blue.

I will watch it. I'm intrigued to see what it says that the report (which I have read from cover to cover and did not find anywhere near as explosive as it has been made out to be, despite the fact that it was written by a panel of scousers handpicked by the Hillsborough campaign groups) didn't.

There is no doubt evidence was collected in an odd way. And within this odd framework (and in part because there was to be no opportunity for proper cross examination) the solicitors were deliberately cagey with half an eye on liability discussions - this much is certainly true.

But the Inquiry did get the full picture in the end and the right consequences - a total overhaul of policing and football ground safety - flowed from it.

[a1]

with all the science and computing power out now, you could figure out every single person in the ground off the all the shitty quality vhs/video8 tapes. not saying you could ID them all by name, but computers would do that "facial recognition person #11112 , guy in a blue jumper # 17687 , liverpool fan walked in then now is in the wrong part of the ground # 1764 " etc, its probably super orwellian, but...

i'd want to know the count at KO time and maybe 10 minutes either side.

14 policemen , 6 saint john's , x # liverpool fans , whatever.

apart from money (can imagine it costing shitloads) .

theyd probably have to use somethin' like this - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynth" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; , but miles more advanced.

if youre gonna do it , go the whole hog. not just "these 2 minutes of VT prove that these lying fcukers owe me compo"

[Lord Kangana]

Watch it A1. Someone has clearly, painstakingly, identified individuals and their movements thoughout the day from both CCTV and TV footage.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

with all the science and computing power out now, you could figure out every single person in the ground off the all the shitty quality vhs/video8 tapes. not saying you could ID them all by name, but computers would do that "facial recognition person #11112 , guy in a blue jumper # 17687 , liverpool fan walked in then now is in the wrong part of the ground # 1764 " etc, its probably super orwellian, but...

i'd want to know the count at KO time and maybe 10 minutes either side.

14 policemen , 6 saint john's , x # liverpool fans , whatever.

apart from money (can imagine it costing shitloads) .

theyd probably have to use somethin' like this - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynth" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; , but miles more advanced.

if youre gonna do it , go the whole hog. not just "these 2 minutes of VT prove that these lying fcukers owe me compo"

This counting and relevant identification has already pretty much been done and is no longer the subject of dispute.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Apologies. My scource here was purely from Panorama last night. Still an odd decision to ask for witnesss statements off everyone else but to ask for written recollections from officers. Then amend those very recollections. Dont know if you saw the prog mummy, but some of the ommissions could only have been to protect the boys in blue.

I have just watched it.

Firstly you're quite right - Phil Scraton does make this misstatement in the programme despite the fact that his own report that he is widely known to have pretty much written himself says something different. He also says that no criticism of Liverpool fans was removed when his report clearly says that there were 33 examples of this.

The first half of the programme was moving and upsetting as it always is whenever they go over what happened. It's the first time my girlfriend has ever watched a programme covering that day and she was very upset watching it unfold.

It is in its entirety another hatchet job driven towards the new consensus. I have to admit that my heart sank when the presenter's first words were "I have followed Liverpool all my life...". Fantastic - another one.

I would repeat the question above about Panorama's current affairs remit. The only tiny shred of new evidence to come from this programme was the little bit of footage that corroborates what is already very well known by now about the timing of Kevin Williams' death.

Inadvertently the programme illustrates once again that Taylor got to the right answer straightaway - that the police fecked up big time and made 'a blunder of the first magnitude'. It also inadvertently illustrated the fact that even police right next to the gate took a long time to appreciate that there was something more than crowd disorder going on - nevermind somebody in a control room. Fans, police, emergency services - everybody - went to football matches before Hillsborough not thinking in terms of people dying if crowds were not organised properly.

Most of them will have been seriously haunted by the benefit of hindsight ever since.

For the rest of us and especially for people who travelled away with their teams in the 80s, it's a case of "there but for the grace of God...".

[a1]

Watch it A1. Someone has clearly, painstakingly, identified individuals and their movements thoughout the day from both CCTV and TV footage.

cool, but i'd be breakin' my "feck these bastards" oath during that day anelka scored his first goal for us.

still hate it now.

[Harry Genshaw]

For the rest of us and especially for people who travelled away with their teams in the 80s, it's a case of "there but for the grace of God...".

Amen to that

[bristol_Wanderer3]

So the bit on the Panorama program where attempts were made to discredit a doctor who gave evidence that the emergency response was not up to scratch, and also the accounts of a female police officer who was bullied into changing her statement about Kevin Williams being alive long after 3.15pm (not on panorama, link http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ex ... how-390294 ), don't these two instances point to an establishment cover up, particularly in the part of the process where West Midlands Police where involved?

To me that is the most disturbing part of all this. We all know that no one planned this tragedy, and that some of the reactions in the immediate aftermath were understandable if not appropriate, but once the Taylor report correctly established where the blame lay, there then began a systematic, deliberate process to divert subsequent negative attention away from the Police and other authorities and onto the fans. This is clear when details of communications between the police and media are referenced in the Scraton report. For 20 years, your average guy in the street generally thought that Hillsborough was caused by hooligan, drunk and ticketless fans who irresponsibly crushed their own fans to death, due to the media coverage in the aftermath of the disaster, media coverage orchestrated by the establishment. People in Liverpool already having to cope with the death and injuries to their family and friends, also had to deal with falsely and unfairly being labelled as thugs who killed their own supporters. That is why the words "cover up" are generally now used in most news articles and TV programmes referencing Hillsborough.

[Zulus Thousand of em]

West Midlands Police?

[Lord Kangana]

If it wasn't so tragic, it would be quite funny to know which comedy genius came up with WMP to conduct oversight.

[bobo the clown]

.... your average guy in the street generally thought that Hillsborough was caused by hooligan, drunk and ticketless fans who irresponsibly crushed their own fans to death ...

Now .... there's a thought.

[Zulus Thousand of em]

If it wasn't so tragic, it would be quite funny to know which comedy genius came up with WMP to conduct oversight.

Ah. Got it. Silly me!