Your England XI

There ARE other teams(we'd have no-one to play otherwise) and here's where all-comers can discuss the wider world of football......

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Worthy4England
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Re: Your England XI

Post by Worthy4England » Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:48 am

Just to balance the rose tintedness of one of our more "senior" posters. :-) I don't recall this world class team that's being referred to in 1996. It was FIFA ranked 25 which is a lot lower than our current ranking and I recall plenty of times where I bemoaned for example, McManaman being largely ineffective. They were a decent team who put in a decent tournament performance. Exceeding my expectations. It also had some "highlights" which sway the notion somewhat. Beating the Scots in a tournament, is always going to engender delight - even though you'd have expected us to win. Thrashing Holland adds a fair amount too.

I see we've also moved to the "statistical analysis" to prove a point. But - and it's quite a big but, you've used career statistics rather than those stats that were actually in place at the time (1996). So here's a few stats. :-)

Kane has a higher goals per game ratio to Shearer going into this tournament - it's not particularly close. More goals, fewer games. (0.63 v 0.48 - career stat). Shearer is probably more "your type" of forward, they don't play the same game, Shearer was effective, Kane much moreso than the Shearer who went into the 1996 tournament...When we went into 1996 competition, Shearer's record was 5 in 23 (0.22), so much lower than Kane's 0.63 is now. Shearers record improved after the 1996 tournament, immeasureably.

If we then look at the Platt thing a little more closely - his GPG is very near Shearers overall, but was much higher going into the tournament (0.44), but the next best on the list - Sheringham - is lower than both Rashford and Sterling and when he went into the tournament his gpg was 0.13, neither Sterling nor Rashford get a mention. If you put the three together, (Shearer, Platt, Sheringham v Kane, Rashford, Sterling) then the 2021 vintage is ahead on GPG (0.38 v 0.34).

Widening it out a little - Mount is higher on GPG than Anderton's career stats by 0.02 (not by much), but conversly, Anderton had 5 in 11 going into 1996 so was way ahead, and Gascoigne is slightly ahead of Sancho by 0.2.

Foden is higher than most - only behind Kane, Platt and Anderton as they stood in 1996 - but fairly small sample. If we went Rashford, Kane, Foden, they'd have a much better ratio than Anderton, Platt, Shearer. And that's part of the problem with this comparison.

I'd also suggest that this team is still more WIP and younger than the 1996 team. It's a couple of years on average lower in age, there isn't much difference in average appearances.

I don't recall having significantly high hopes of the 96 team and actually some of the points you make occurred after the tournament, so McManaman playing for Real Madrid, occured 3 years later. Would they have bought him in 1996? I dunno.

There's also the Ince "thing". Ince would be a red card walking in today's game, so you're not going to see another Ince, Keane, Viera etc. because they wouldn't get away with it now.

As a final point, the Euro 1996 song. Nowhere near as good as New Order's 1990 song. To quote your good self - not even a point for debate. Period. For Ever. It's coming home is an absolute bag of fcuking spanners. There. I've said it and I feel much better. :-)

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Re: Your England XI

Post by Worthy4England » Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:53 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:43 am
No doubt this is a young team with potential. But they have to produce these big moments for England in big games.
Which the 1996 world-beaters did how? They drew 3 of the 5 games they played, one of which was against Switzerland, admittedly showing some balls to win a pengy shoot out v Spain.

Is there much difference between a team that goes out in extra time in a World Cup semi final and one which went out on penalties in a Euro, in terms of their "big moment conversion rate"? I'm not seeing it. :-)

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Re: Your England XI

Post by Prufrock » Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:07 pm

I was with you until that nonsense about 3 lions :D

More importantly, I said above Grealish was the nearest thing we have to Gazza. That was before I saw Foden's haircut :lol:

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Re: Your England XI

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:07 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:53 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:43 am
No doubt this is a young team with potential. But they have to produce these big moments for England in big games.
Which the 1996 world-beaters did how? They drew 3 of the 5 games they played, one of which was against Switzerland, admittedly showing some balls to win a pengy shoot out v Spain.

Is there much difference between a team that goes out in extra time in a World Cup semi final and one which went out on penalties in a Euro, in terms of their "big moment conversion rate"? I'm not seeing it. :-)

The 2018 team barely exists now. I’d say the difference for me is the 96 team was genuinely the best in the tournament. We failed to beat Germany but unlike 1990 really really should have in my view. 2018 we got through in a weaker part of the tournament and really surprised ourselves. Not knocking it. But we came against a half decent side and came unstuck. 96 we played good sides and yes we ultimately failed it was for me far more convincing as a team and manager.

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Re: Your England XI

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:08 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:07 pm
I was with you until that nonsense about 3 lions :D

More importantly, I said above Grealish was the nearest thing we have to Gazza. That was before I saw Foden's haircut :lol:

It's coming home.
Foden is closer to Gascoigne in some ways just not a midfield player in same sense. I don’t see much similarity between Grealish and Gazza. Grealish for me doesn’t have the end product as yet. And Gazza was all about end product from all over the pitch.

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Re: Your England XI

Post by GhostoftheBok » Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:12 pm

I think it's also being forgotten that David Platt played off Lineker in a forward role in a lot of his England games. His movement and finishing were excellent, but then Peter Crouch has 1 in 2 for England and I don't think he'd make it into the current England squad either.

We could also say that Zidane's international goal rate is lower than Platt's and therefore he wasn't as a good a player, but then that would make the whole argument look silly.

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Re: Your England XI

Post by Harry Genshaw » Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:25 pm

96 was a great time with the whole country coming together. Great tune too, no matter what Worthy says :D

There's definitely a hint of the rose tinters though when you look back at England's performances in the tournament.

Poor v the Swiss.
Poor and fortunate v the Scots until the Gazza magic.
The Dutch game is the finest English performance in my lifetime, then
Fortunate v the Spanish - didn't they have a perfectly good goal disallowed?
Evenly matched v the Germans.
It was a massively missed opportunity though. Playing all our games at Wembley and with the Dutch, Italians and French all surprisingly poor, we had a great opportunity. Its embarrassing to think we've never even made the finals of a Euros when you see the calibre of some of the nations who have.
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Re: Your England XI

Post by Prufrock » Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:30 pm

Not sure I agree on Grealish and end product. That was fair a couple of years ago (but he's still only 25). Last two years, in a relegation threatened and then midtable team he's got 14 goal involvement (goals + assists) in 38, and then 16 in 26. They stack up pretty well against anyone.

He looks like the frustrating sort but he makes things happen.
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Re: Your England XI

Post by GhostoftheBok » Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:43 pm

Grealish's job at Villa is to take on tasks that no other player in the team can. What Americans call "low percentage plays." He isn't lacking end product, he's producing chances way above the expected average from the positions in which he gets the ball. Sterling is an example of a player currently lacking end product, where City get him the ball in already dangerous areas and he screws it up.

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Re: Your England XI

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:48 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:30 pm
Not sure I agree on Grealish and end product. That was fair a couple of years ago (but he's still only 25). Last two years, in a relegation threatened and then midtable team he's got 14 goal involvement (goals + assists) in 38, and then 16 in 26. They stack up pretty well against anyone.

He looks like the frustrating sort but he makes things happen.
I take the point below about his role and I think it’s fair. And he’s definitely improved. On the world stage though has he shown any sign of the range of end product Gascoigne had? Not even close in my view. Grealish doesn’t have the vision or quality. He’s a good ball carrier and I think can be used in that way. But still I wouldn’t place him as someone to build a team round. Foden might be.

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Re: Your England XI

Post by Worthy4England » Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:25 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:07 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:53 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:43 am
No doubt this is a young team with potential. But they have to produce these big moments for England in big games.
Which the 1996 world-beaters did how? They drew 3 of the 5 games they played, one of which was against Switzerland, admittedly showing some balls to win a pengy shoot out v Spain.

Is there much difference between a team that goes out in extra time in a World Cup semi final and one which went out on penalties in a Euro, in terms of their "big moment conversion rate"? I'm not seeing it. :-)

The 2018 team barely exists now. I’d say the difference for me is the 96 team was genuinely the best in the tournament. We failed to beat Germany but unlike 1990 really really should have in my view. 2018 we got through in a weaker part of the tournament and really surprised ourselves. Not knocking it. But we came against a half decent side and came unstuck. 96 we played good sides and yes we ultimately failed it was for me far more convincing as a team and manager.
That bit about the 2018 team barely existing just isn't correct. In the 2018 semi-final, the line-up had Pickford, Maguire, Stones, Walker, Henderson, Trippier, Kane and Sterling in it, as did the QF. All in the current squad? Lingard, Alli and Young are the only 3 missing. Scotland, Switzerland were not good sides in 1996. Spain were nowhere near what they went on to achieve in the noughties. I've never at any point in my lifetime had England as the best team in any tournament - how do you equate that with our FIFA ranking at the time of 25th?

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Re: Your England XI

Post by Worthy4England » Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:33 pm

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:25 pm
96 was a great time with the whole country coming together. Great tune too, no matter what Worthy says :D

There's definitely a hint of the rose tinters though when you look back at England's performances in the tournament.

Poor v the Swiss.
Poor and fortunate v the Scots until the Gazza magic.
The Dutch game is the finest English performance in my lifetime, then
Fortunate v the Spanish - didn't they have a perfectly good goal disallowed?
Evenly matched v the Germans.
It was a massively missed opportunity though. Playing all our games at Wembley and with the Dutch, Italians and French all surprisingly poor, we had a great opportunity. Its embarrassing to think we've never even made the finals of a Euros when you see the calibre of some of the nations who have.
Apart from your obvious error in the first line, this would be where I was at. :-)

I'm guessing, like me, maybe the Dutch performance was only eclipsed by our 5-1 gubbing of Germany - in Germany...Surely our best ever one-off performance (well in my lifetime, at least)

Edit: Shit, forgot I was on the planet in 1966! lol...

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Re: Your England XI

Post by Prufrock » Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:43 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:48 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:30 pm
Not sure I agree on Grealish and end product. That was fair a couple of years ago (but he's still only 25). Last two years, in a relegation threatened and then midtable team he's got 14 goal involvement (goals + assists) in 38, and then 16 in 26. They stack up pretty well against anyone.

He looks like the frustrating sort but he makes things happen.
I take the point below about his role and I think it’s fair. And he’s definitely improved. On the world stage though has he shown any sign of the range of end product Gascoigne had? Not even close in my view. Grealish doesn’t have the vision or quality. He’s a good ball carrier and I think can be used in that way. But still I wouldn’t place him as someone to build a team round. Foden might be.
He's played 7 games! And been motm in most of them. He hasn't done it yet on the world stage granted but he hasn't had chance yet, and I just don't buy the above. He's so much more than a ball carrier. He's one of the best passers of the ball in the Prem. Sometimes De Bruyne like with that whip and invitation to attack.

His antics and whatever have had him painted in a box but he's a properly clever footballer. And really importantly he wears the shirt lightly, looks like he loves it, isn't phased.

Foden is going to be a megastar, but Grealish is better than anything else we've had in that "playmaking" role in a long time. The only thing stopping him going to a massive club this summer will be the price villa would demand.
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Re: Your England XI

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:47 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:25 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:07 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:53 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:43 am
No doubt this is a young team with potential. But they have to produce these big moments for England in big games.
Which the 1996 world-beaters did how? They drew 3 of the 5 games they played, one of which was against Switzerland, admittedly showing some balls to win a pengy shoot out v Spain.

Is there much difference between a team that goes out in extra time in a World Cup semi final and one which went out on penalties in a Euro, in terms of their "big moment conversion rate"? I'm not seeing it. :-)

The 2018 team barely exists now. I’d say the difference for me is the 96 team was genuinely the best in the tournament. We failed to beat Germany but unlike 1990 really really should have in my view. 2018 we got through in a weaker part of the tournament and really surprised ourselves. Not knocking it. But we came against a half decent side and came unstuck. 96 we played good sides and yes we ultimately failed it was for me far more convincing as a team and manager.
That bit about the 2018 team barely existing just isn't correct. In the 2018 semi-final, the line-up had Pickford, Maguire, Stones, Walker, Henderson, Trippier, Kane and Sterling in it, as did the QF. All in the current squad? Lingard, Alli and Young are the only 3 missing. Scotland, Switzerland were not good sides in 1996. Spain were nowhere near what they went on to achieve in the noughties. I've never at any point in my lifetime had England as the best team in any tournament - how do you equate that with our FIFA ranking at the time of 25th?
FIFA rankings are reflective of competitive games and we were gubbins under Taylor between 92 and 94 and as host nation didn’t have to qualify for 96. The team that turned up in that tournament for me matched and bettered the winners in Germany and whilst you can definitely say it was a tight game we edged it I’d say. It’s the first and only time I looked at our team and felt we were man for man better than the winners. 90 was superb but hand on heart that German side was in its peak of efficiency and stock full of top European talent. We ran them close but I’d say player for player they were better. I don’t believe in 96 that was the case. But you know it’s just opinions.

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Re: Your England XI

Post by GhostoftheBok » Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:37 pm

Southgate released this mild, completely inoffensive and rather impressive statement. Naturally the troglodytes are up in arms.

https://www.theplayerstribune.com/posts ... ros-soccer

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Re: Your England XI

Post by Prufrock » Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:24 pm

I wish he was a better football manager because he's very good at the rest of it!
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Re: Your England XI

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:41 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:24 pm
I wish he was a better football manager because he's very good at the rest of it!
Ha. I said exactly the same thing. In terms of how he carries himself and the eloquence and thought in his statements he’s above and beyond anyone else. It’s just a shame he’s a rubbish manager. But frankly the letter is more important to our society than some football results.

I hope we win it and he literally just keeps stuffing it up the backwards looking racists, including the current government.

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Re: Your England XI

Post by GhostoftheBok » Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:53 pm

One thing I would say is that, at international and club level, coaching staff can make a huge difference. Whether it's Ricky Sbragia at Utd turning Ferguson's desires into solid tactical instructions, or Tony Adams organising Pompey's defence for Redknapp, it matters.

Graeme Jones is a very good organisation coach and I hold out some hope he will have an impact in this tournament. If Southgate can show leadership and motivate the lads, it may be that his coaches can make up for his other shortfalls.

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Re: Your England XI

Post by TANGODANCER » Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:11 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:37 pm
Southgate released this mild, completely inoffensive and rather impressive statement. Naturally the troglodytes are up in arms.

https://www.theplayerstribune.com/posts ... ros-soccer
Impressive stuff. Well done Gareth. :pray:
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Re: Your England XI

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:19 pm

Conservative racist MP Lee Anderson Has said he is boycotting the tournament because England players are taking the knee. Sure you will be missed mate. Lee Anderson, must be something with that name.

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