Your England XI

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GhostoftheBok
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Re: Your England XI

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun Jun 06, 2021 6:46 pm

Not even as bad at the Rashford one earlier. Sick of it in the game.

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Re: Your England XI

Post by Bruce Rioja » Sun Jun 06, 2021 6:48 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sun Jun 06, 2021 6:46 pm
Not even as bad at the Rashford one earlier. Sick of it in the game.
Not long since had it on, Fella. I'm actually annoyed at Grealish for that.
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Re: Your England XI

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:21 pm

On another note I hope the morons who are booing their own players taking the knee all get lifelong incurable doses of anal crabs.

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Re: Your England XI

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:30 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:21 pm
On another note I hope the morons who are booing their own players taking the knee all get lifelong incurable doses of anal crabs.
Same idiots booed at half time in a friendly.

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Re: Your England XI

Post by The_Gun » Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:37 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:21 pm
On another note I hope the morons who are booing their own players taking the knee all get lifelong incurable doses of anal crabs.
Amen. The justification that they're booing because it's a political movement is such utter nonsense. If they're so staunchly in favour of removing politics from football, I presume that they're all also campaigning for poppies to be removed from shirts?

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Re: Your England XI

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:09 am

The_Gun wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:37 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:21 pm
On another note I hope the morons who are booing their own players taking the knee all get lifelong incurable doses of anal crabs.
Amen. The justification that they're booing because it's a political movement is such utter nonsense. If they're so staunchly in favour of removing politics from football, I presume that they're all also campaigning for poppies to be removed from shirts?
If any single fan seriously uses the justification that taking the knee is an attempt to 'overthrow capitalism' then they are either moronically thick or simply just racist and trying to kid themselves otherwise.

Anyone with a brain cell can see what the players are doing and why.

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Re: Your England XI

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:21 am

Ok my England team's fwiw - I have a 3 and a 4.

3
Pickford
Walker Stones Maguire (if fit)
James Phillips Mount Chilwell
Grealish
Foden
Kane

4
Pickford
James Walker Maguire Chilwell
Phillips Mount Grealish
Sancho Kane Foden

My 4 would be a 4-2-3-1

EDIT: Had Rice in but actually think KP might be the better bet if we're playing Mount and Grealish - especially with a back 4.

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Re: Your England XI

Post by GhostoftheBok » Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:49 pm

Ben White has been called up. He should have been picked in the original 26, but at least he's available now.

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Re: Your England XI

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:04 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muLV_Bep-es&t=985s

Worth a watch this. Euro 96. Last time I felt England had a great side and a good manager. A superb tournament. We should have won it too. The only time I can say in my lifetime England genuinely were the best side in a tournament (Spain we got lucky fair enough). But we were better than the Germans that time. They still won. The character in this England side was absolutely immense.

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Re: Your England XI

Post by Prufrock » Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:30 pm

Oh will definitely check that out later. My earliest proper footballing memory (beyond a couple of hazy FA Cup finals but then something seemed to click and I have loads from 97 on.

Goes towards my point on international football I think. Well managed, defensively sound and reliable goalscorer(s). Worth remembering (I'm told, I was too young to actually remember :D ) that the team went into the tournament unloved. Shearer hadn't scored in forever, the got ripped apart for the dentist chair night out. But strikers in form and it can click. The two absolute nailed on starters for me are Kane, and Foden in the front three, for that reason.

I've got a sneaking hope it might be the tournament Sancho shows everyone in this country how good he is (hopefully not before coming back to those red bastards) but he might have to do it from the bench.
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Re: Your England XI

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:37 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:30 pm
Oh will definitely check that out later. My earliest proper footballing memory (beyond a couple of hazy FA Cup finals but then something seemed to click and I have loads from 97 on.

Goes towards my point on international football I think. Well managed, defensively sound and reliable goalscorer(s). Worth remembering (I'm told, I was too young to actually remember :D ) that the team went into the tournament unloved. Shearer hadn't scored in forever, the got ripped apart for the dentist chair night out. But strikers in form and it can click. The two absolute nailed on starters for me are Kane, and Foden in the front three, for that reason.

I've got a sneaking hope it might be the tournament Sancho shows everyone in this country how good he is (hopefully not before coming back to those red bastards) but he might have to do it from the bench.
I think you are describing a time period where the press had it in for literally every England team Pre tournament. It’s covered in this. The headlines were ridiculous.

I remember the furious arguments going on about Ferdinand vs Shearer at the time.

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Re: Your England XI

Post by GhostoftheBok » Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:14 pm

It's a weird place to be in as an England fan these days. We spent decades talking about how if we only had a couple of technical players as good as other teams' we could win something and now we do our defence is crap. We spent generations producing some of the best centre halves and keepers in the world and now we've got depth in attack they're bang average by world standards.

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Re: Your England XI

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:59 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:14 pm
It's a weird place to be in as an England fan these days. We spent decades talking about how if we only had a couple of technical players as good as other teams' we could win something and now we do our defence is crap. We spent generations producing some of the best centre halves and keepers in the world and now we've got depth in attack they're bang average by world standards.
See I don’t agree.

In 96 we had in midfield…

Ince (a far better defensive midfield type than we’ve got now. It’s not even close).

Mcmanaman (went to play for Real Madrid as good technically as anyone I’ve seen for England).

Anderton (technically excellent obviously blighted by injuries subsequently)

Gascoigne (still the best player to have pulled on an England shirt in my lifetime).

Behind Shearer we had Sheringham a superb technician.

It was so good Platt couldn’t get into that midfield. Platt being for me far better than anyone we can name there today.

Technically that team was absolutely streets ahead of the side we can play now. And as you say it had Tony Adams who was absolutely brilliant. And Pearce who was bar Maldini as good as any left back. And Seaman a world class goalkeeper.

You compare 96 to what we’ve got now. I mean we are miles off for me. Try and put the existing team into the 96 team. Who gets in? I honestly can’t think of anyone. Foden would have been a great sub. No way is Kane getting in for Shearer.

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Re: Your England XI

Post by GhostoftheBok » Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:36 am

We will have to agree to disagree. I rate the 96 squad and I think the 96 11 was better than the current 11, but there's a lot of nostalgia going on there in terms of where they rank in world terms. If you have David Platt as beyond anything in the England team now, no.

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Re: Your England XI

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:01 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:36 am
We will have to agree to disagree. I rate the 96 squad and I think the 96 11 was better than the current 11, but there's a lot of nostalgia going on there in terms of where they rank in world terms. If you have David Platt as beyond anything in the England team now, no.
He scored 27 goals in 62 games for England. I mean that’s outstanding when you think in 114 games Gerrard only managed 21.

I don’t think it’s even up for debate that Platt is a better player than anyone in the current setup. Unless you want to offer which of our midfield players will come close to 1 in 2 for England?

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Re: Your England XI

Post by The_Gun » Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:59 am

You've got some super strength rose tinted specs on here, Insano. It's natural to remember players and teams from your youth with fondness, but the game has moved on significantly since 96, and the current crop of England players are on another planet technically compared to the players back then.

Remember we've had our strongest ever youth teams in recent years (winning the U17 and U20 World Cups, and the U19 Euros in 2017) - success which came off the back of an overhaul of our development structure after years of struggling to develop technically capable players.

As Ghost rightly points out, our deficiencies at the moment are defensive, and definitely not technical.

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Re: Your England XI

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:24 am

The_Gun wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:59 am
You've got some super strength rose tinted specs on here, Insano. It's natural to remember players and teams from your youth with fondness, but the game has moved on significantly since 96, and the current crop of England players are on another planet technically compared to the players back then.

Remember we've had our strongest ever youth teams in recent years (winning the U17 and U20 World Cups, and the U19 Euros in 2017) - success which came off the back of an overhaul of our development structure after years of struggling to develop technically capable players.

As Ghost rightly points out, our deficiencies at the moment are defensive, and definitely not technical.
Sorry but I simply disagree to a huge degree. The fact that football is different now is undeniable. No false number 9's or whatever in 96. But you have to discuss things in relative terms. The 96 team were full of technical players, Gascoigne, McMannaman, Anderton, Platt, Sheringham. These were all players who were technically superb. In Gascoigne's case no player has come close to his ability for England - and I think unless you go back and watch you will forget how absolutely awesome a player he was. All round midfield excellence. I was watching one of the 1990 warm up games the other day and Gazza did stuff that simply has to be seen to be believed. And he worked incredibly hard too and was a physical presence in there.

But like I say can you tell me which of our midfield players is going to score close to 1 in 2 - and virtually 1 in 2 in competitive games - over a 60 game period? I just don't see it. And Platt who had that record couldn't even get in for much of 96 and when he could was often played out of position. I honestly think we're in a world where players who are good and do the odd nice thing get completely overrated now. England is about turning up in the tournaments and producing the end product when it matters at either end of the pitch. The current crop have a long way to go to prove themselves apart from Kane. I'm not seeing anyone else who I'd say is proven a success yet at international level. Many are young and that's absolutely fine and of course they have time to show it. But still whatever team we put out against Croatia will have a long way to go individually and collectively to be as good as that 96 team were. That's the only time I can honestly say we had the best team in a major tournament - we were better than the Germans and probably just fear cost us (and a few millimetres on Gazza's boot).

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Re: Your England XI

Post by Prufrock » Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:13 am

There are also the rose tints because they had that tournament and with the likes of Gazza and Platt had Italia 90 in the bank too.

I'm convinced that in the next ten years we will get to a major final and then we can revisit.

But for one, Harry Kane is without a shadow of a doubt in the top 3 players in the world in his position, and if he stays fit will smash the England goals record, and if he stays in England the Prem record too. People compare him to Shearer, validly, but he's just won both the golden boot and most assists, he's like Shearer and Sheringnham combined. Without a doubt he gets in.

McManaman played for Real but only because he was on a free. They took to him because he embraced it, surprised them by being better than they thought and worked hard. He was a good player, you don't play for Real and win the Champions League of you're not, but he's nowhere near as technically gifted as Foden say. And sometime like Henderson has just captained Liverpool to the Prem and the Champions League. TAA is a phenomenon.
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Re: Your England XI

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:43 am

Prufrock wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:13 am
There are also the rose tints because they had that tournament and with the likes of Gazza and Platt had Italia 90 in the bank too.

I'm convinced that in the next ten years we will get to a major final and then we can revisit.

But for one, Harry Kane is without a shadow of a doubt in the top 3 players in the world in his position, and if he stays fit will smash the England goals record, and if he stays in England the Prem record too. People compare him to Shearer, validly, but he's just won both the golden boot and most assists, he's like Shearer and Sheringnham combined. Without a doubt he gets in.

McManaman played for Real but only because he was on a free. They took to him because he embraced it, surprised them by being better than they thought and worked hard. He was a good player, you don't play for Real and win the Champions League of you're not, but he's nowhere near as technically gifted as Foden say. And sometime like Henderson has just captained Liverpool to the Prem and the Champions League. TAA is a phenomenon.
No doubt this is a young team with potential. But they have to produce these big moments for England in big games.

If you take something like the second goal against Scotland its an absolutely superb goal packed full of technique - Sheringham taking the clearance down with his first touch, second touch out to Anderton who first time chips the ball into the channel for Gascoigne who has made a great run and from there he does something purely magical. You can watch that goal time and time and time again. Its one touch stuff. That for me is what you need to produce to win stuff at international level. The moments of magic, the quick incisive one touch stuff. I've not seen an England team really produce that since 96. The players may be capable now but I think they need to show and prove it on the international stage. I still come back to Platt a midfield player with close to a 1 in 2 record being left out. I just can't see any of these lads from midfield getting 1 in 2 but perhaps you could suggest which one might?

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Re: Your England XI

Post by Prufrock » Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:13 am

You absolutely don't need to be able to score goals like that to win international tournaments! It's one of the best ever major tournament goals, and plenty teams have won things without scoring anything like as good a goal!

I don't think any of the current "central midfielders" (i.e. not the likes of Foden or the other winger/10s) will end up 1 in 2 (Mount the likely but still no) but again I don't think you need that. I've said before I think international football is right up your street! You need to be well organised, good at set pieces and have a reliable goalscorer.

Back to the comparisons, the 96 team had a couple who'd got to the 90 semi and then they all did in 96. No-one is saying that weren't a good team. Despite getting to the semi 3 years ago, 3 of the 5 I'd say most likely starters are the weaker players in Pickford Stones and Maguire. The rest are promising and still have to prove it.

I just don't buy it's obvious that they don't merit even comparison. Also our better players outside Kane and Trent are wingers (and the Euro 96 team didn't have any) or play in the same position as Gazza. But the list below is the England players I reckon either already are or will become genuinely top drawer:

Already: Kane and Trent. Our two genuinely world class players who would get in any squad in world football. Henderson - captained Liverpool to the league and CL. Took him a long time to win me around but he's been sensational for 3 years until this last one. Chilwell - complete modern full back, can play in a 4 or LWB. By his own admission struggled for the first part lockdown and his form fell through the floor at which point people seem to have decided he was rubbish. James got all the plaudits in the CL final but I thought Chilwell was even better. James dealt well with Sterling but got wrong side a couple of times and if he'd scored either of those... Chilwell against the much better Mahrez who has been flying didn't give him a kick.

Could be: Rice - think this will be his breakthrough tournament. Already good holding player has added a lot to his game going forward this year. Will end up at a big club. Foden - arguably already there. Sancho - same, masked by not playing week in week out in England otherwise he'd be a regular already. Bellingham, the head on those young shoulders. Got every attribute. Grealish - nearest thing we've got to a Gazza. Not there yet but has the perfect mentality for international football, you can see he loves it and the pressure makes him better not worse. Mount - another v good technically, loves the big stage. James - I'm less convinced that others but there's clearly an international level footballer in there. Greenwood - that kid is special. Still very early for him but he has a long career ahead.

Never going to be absolute top level but good enough players to be in a successful international side with quality around them: Walker, Trippier, Sterling (not right now given form I wouldn't even take him, but there's a good player in there) Rashford, Stones (needs a Dias type general next to him and I'm not convinced that's Maguire but he's been immense this year for City) Shaw, Pickford, Gomez, James.

We're relying on several of the could bes coming good, but I don't think there's much doubt really about Foden or Sancho.
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