Black & Ethnic Minority coaches

[malcd1]

I think Boris has a point on the last page about a generational thing. Like Bramble and Dyer say in that Telegraph article, not many of their black teammates showed a desire to coach or manage.
I think there might be a lag effect from the serious racism that occurred not that long ago. Black players would probably not have felt part of the footballing establishment, when they were getting horrible abuse and their employers and the authorities didn't seem to do a great deal about it for a while. So it would be understandable if many of them decided to move on from the game. Then you have young black players being coached almost exclusively by white guys like Dyer said.
I think it will catch up without quotas, but it might take a while. I'd be dead against quotas in terms of actual jobs, but I'm slowly coming round to the interview thing. Even though it might seem like lip service it may subtly change the views of some chairmen and let them see that what these guys have to offer, and that it's no different from what the white guys have.
Stuff that doesn't help was all that bollocks about a black players' union and Paul Ince bitching whilst being rubbish at his job, Sol Campbell being a dick. If that sort of thing sows seeds of doubt and makes boards consciously or subconsciously wary about shortlisting, maybe the obligatory interviews can serve to remove those barriers without forcing people into jobs. I'm still not keen on the idea though.

The thing I am against with the interview thing (Rooney Rule) is that these black managers will soon be complaining that they have been applied for 10 jobs and been overlooked. Why go to the trouble of interviewing a person who is under qualified, inexperienced or just plain shite just because of the colour of their skin. From what I can gather these days, many experienced people (Lennon at Norwich?) don't even get an interview because of the number of candidates.

I think football club owners try to employ the person they think will do the best job irrespective of skin colour. If there were some really good black managers I'm confident they would be employed by the best clubs.

[Prufrock]

I couldn't find any numbers

Right, so, anyone that doesn't simply accept things as you see them is therefore burying their head in the sand? Right oh.

If there were awards for disingenuous quotes that would be a good contender. Firstly, directly afterwards I came up with some (not particularly strong) anecdotal evidence. Still more than you came up with, mind.

More importantly, my point is that it isn't important how many people *are* doing the courses. The point of the awards that set of this debate is to get more people doing them in the first place. That isn't disputed.

25% of players are black. Given the players= best coaches mantra is undoubted truth at the FA, that would mean on average you'd expect the best 100 managers/coaches to include 25 black coaches. If there are only 3, you've lost 22 of your best 100 coaches. It doesn't matter what the reason is. Even if it's totally imagined racism, you've still lost 22% of your best coaches. That's no good for the game. In order to argue that you don't "accept things as I see them" you'd have to argue there's another reason that black coaches don't get these jobs. As I said, simply not applying for them isn't enough, as that's the point of this initiative. So what's your explanation?

It fecking doesn't help when proven failure Paul Ince, and general nutter Sol Campbell are the flag-flyers, mind.

[Bruce Rioja]

If there were awards for disingenuous quotes that would be a good contender.

But this would win.

[bobo the clown]

If were going to do these quota things right then it's clear there are far too many black players, no-where near enough Asian ones and we need to draft in a lot more Orientals too. At least 50% should be female and a minimum of one per team should be physically handicapped (we have Trotter so we're at least showing willing). There are waaaaay to few old gits as well ... that needs sorting out.

I simply can't wait of Equality Football. The BBC would be delighted.

It's all or nothing in this World of Diversity. No excuses.

Alternatively we recognise this is a pile of steaming shite and get on with things.

Decisions, decisions.

[Prufrock]

If there were awards for disingenuous quotes that would be a good contender.

But this would win.

You've always been an inspiration. To take another of your tactics:

Go on then, what's your explanation for why so few black players are going into coaching? Well? No?

[jaffka]

If were going to do these quota things right then it's clear there are far too many black players, no-where near enough Asian ones and we need to draft in a lot more Orientals too. At least 50% should be female and a minimum of one per team should be physically handicapped (we have Trotter so we're at least showing willing). There are waaaaay to few old gits as well ... that needs sorting out.

I simply can't wait of Equality Football. The BBC would be delighted.

It's all or nothing in this World of Diversity. No excuses.

Alternatively we recognise this is a pile of steaming shite and get on with things.

Decisions, decisions.

This sums it up perfectly for me.

Ambulance chasing solicitors like looking for non existent problems though. Leaches.

[thebish]

If were going to do these quota things right then it's clear there are far too many black players, no-where near enough Asian ones and we need to draft in a lot more Orientals too. At least 50% should be female and a minimum of one per team should be physically handicapped (we have Trotter so we're at least showing willing). There are waaaaay to few old gits as well ... that needs sorting out.

I simply can't wait of Equality Football. The BBC would be delighted.

It's all or nothing in this World of Diversity. No excuses.

Alternatively we recognise this is a pile of steaming shite and get on with things.

Decisions, decisions.

hoboh the clown??

[Harry Genshaw]

If were going to do these quota things right then it's clear there are far too many black players, no-where near enough Asian ones and we need to draft in a lot more Orientals too. At least 50% should be female and a minimum of one per team should be physically handicapped (we have Trotter so we're at least showing willing). There are waaaaay to few old gits as well ... that needs sorting out.
I simply can't wait of Equality Football. The BBC would be delighted.

It's all or nothing in this World of Diversity. No excuses.

Alternatively we recognise this is a pile of steaming shite and get on with things.

Decisions, decisions.

Tango! Get yer dubbin out!

[Bruce Rioja]

If there were awards for disingenuous quotes that would be a good contender.

But this would win.

You've always been an inspiration. To take another of your tactics:

Go on then, what's your explanation for why so few black players are going into coaching? Well? No?

I've no idea, and neither have you. You posted up two percentages but a third key percentage was missing, which I questioned and you went off on one. A personal anecdote counts for nothing in the great scheme of it.

[Hoboh]

If there were awards for disingenuous quotes that would be a good contender.

But this would win.

You've always been an inspiration. To take another of your tactics:

Go on then, what's your explanation for why so few black players are going into coaching? Well? No?

I've no idea, and neither have you. You posted up two percentages but a third key percentage was missing, which I questioned and you went off on one. A personal anecdote counts for nothing in the great scheme of it.

[Prufrock]

If there were awards for disingenuous quotes that would be a good contender.

But this would win.

You've always been an inspiration. To take another of your tactics:

Go on then, what's your explanation for why so few black players are going into coaching? Well? No?

I've no idea, and neither have you. You posted up two percentages but a third key percentage was missing, which I questioned and you went off on one. A personal anecdote counts for nothing in the great scheme of it.

Personal anecdote is better than nowt!

And I don't think it is a key percentage. Either there are plenty of black coaches doing the badges who aren't getting a chance, which suggests one problem, or there aren't enough doing the badges in the first place, which suggests another. Either way, unless anyone can come up with a reason why black coaches shouldn't be as good, we're losing a large percentage of the talent pool. Our best 100 coaches has 22 who aren't good enough to be in there. Obviously that'd be what you'd expect on average, and there's no reason there should be exactly 25, but 3 seems fecking sus to me.

[bobo the clown]

You're wrong on this one Pru. You know you are .... just quietly back away. No-one will think any less of you. Honestly. They couldn't.

[Hoboh]

You're wrong on this one Pru. You know you are .... just quietly back away. No-one will think any less of you. Honestly. They couldn't.

[boltonboris]

Either there are plenty of black coaches doing the badges who aren't getting a chance, which suggests one problem, or there aren't enough doing the badges in the first place, which suggests another.

Yes.. But it's their problem.. My feeling is that black players who finish players are on the most part, not arsed about going into coaching and the stress that it brings.

[thebish]

Either there are plenty of black coaches doing the badges who aren't getting a chance, which suggests one problem, or there aren't enough doing the badges in the first place, which suggests another.

Yes.. But it's their problem.. My feeling is that black players who finish players are on the most part, not arsed about going into coaching and the stress that it brings.

that does seem to be the case - but (to me) the interesting question is - why are black players not arsed when white players are arsed? Are black people genetically indisposed to being arsed about going into coaching and the stress it brings, or do they perceive there is some kind of barrier to them trying (whether it actually exists or not)?

[Prufrock]

Firstly, if it is the second reason, yes it is their problem, but it's ours too. The best people aren't coaching our kids and players. That's not good whatever the reason.

Secondly, this Guardian article was the only info I could find on numbers doing the badges. It states that the numbers on the PFA courses are 18% Black and EM: http://www.theguardian.com/football/blo ... s-at-a-low" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yet only 4% of coaching positions.

[boltonboris]

Firstly, if it is the second reason, yes it is their problem, but it's ours too. The best people aren't coaching our kids and players. That's not good whatever the reason.

Secondly, this Guardian article was the only info I could find on numbers doing the badges. It states that the numbers on the PFA courses are 18% Black and EM: http://www.theguardian.com/football/blo ... s-at-a-low" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yet only 4% of coaching positions.

How could you possibly know?? What makes these non-coaches a higher quality of coach than our current coaches?

[Prufrock]

Maths! If 25% of players had a K in their name, then you'd expect, of the best 100 coaches out of those players, that 25 would have a K in their name unless there was some good reason why people with a K in their name should be less good at coaching. You wouldn't always get 25, but for it to be around 4, consistently, over a period of decades would be very odd indeed.

So unless there's a reason why black/ EM players should be less good as coaches than white players, then there must be people who would be in that top 100 who aren't getting the jobs. Whether that's due to overt deliberate racism at one of the scale, or simply because they don't fancy it for whatever reason at the other, you're still missing out on people who would be in that top 100, and by far too big a margin, over far too long a period of time for it just to be a quirk.

It may be that black/EM players simply don't make as good coaches as white ones. That doesn't seem the right answer to me.

[bobo the clown]

What about the wimmin ? .... & cripples ? ..... & old people .... ? & What's the religious break down ... God matters here.

... and the gays ? .... & the whole gamut, Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transsexual, Sexually non-aligned, Sexually indeterminate, Weird, Animal Botherers, Paedophiles ? They all have to be given a fair crack of the whip .... oh, whip, yes that reminds me.

[Prufrock]

Well, like this whole discussion, based on the assumption that the footballing world is correct to choose its coaches overwhelmingly from ex-players, then I'm pretty certain women and gays, in terms of those who are "out" anyway, are pretty accurately represented. So well done on that one, football.