Black & Ethnic Minority coaches

[jaffka]

Talk about quotas. All sounds very communist Russia to me.

[Bruce Rioja]

Paul ince lost any credibility when he said John Barnes should be given a top job based on his playing career.... Didn't he have numerous and pretty disastrous managerial appointments?

Not sure he's had numerous appointments, but he was a disaster at Celtic having gone in as part of the 'dream ticket' which saw Barnes working under Kenny Dalglish. I seem to recall him making an absolute bollocks of it at Tranmere too, which was nice.

[thebish]

Best person for the job regardless of age, race, gender or any other external consideration. That's all.

I think everyone would agree with that, wouldn't they? question is - is that what's currently happening (keep Freedman out of it!!) - and if not, what, if anything, to do about it...

I think that's that is what's happening.

i am genuinely interested in what you think is happening, then...

if, as you claim, clubs are consistently choosing the best people to be coaches regardless of age, race, gender or any other external consideration, and if (as Bobo claims) there are no barriers to black people getting these jobs, then why do you think it is that the best person for the job is pretty much ALWAYS a white man?

[thebish]

Paul ince lost any credibility when he said John Barnes should be given a top job based on his playing career.... Didn't he have numerous and pretty disastrous managerial appointments?

Not sure he's had numerous appointments, but he was a disaster at Celtic having gone in as part of the 'dream ticket' which saw Barnes working under Kenny Dalglish. I seem to recall him making an absolute bollocks of it at Tranmere too, which was nice.

if his team-talks were as wooden as his punditry, you can imagine why!

[malcd1]

A good article in the Telegraph about this issue. I think Kieron Dyer talks a lot of sense and gives a bit of an insight into 'some' black players views on future coaching careers.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/footba ... -Rule.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Bruce Rioja]

Best person for the job regardless of age, race, gender or any other external consideration. That's all.

I think everyone would agree with that, wouldn't they? question is - is that what's currently happening (keep Freedman out of it!!) - and if not, what, if anything, to do about it...

I think that's that is what's happening.

i am genuinely interested in what you think is happening, then...

if, as you claim, clubs are consistently choosing the best people to be coaches regardless of age, race, gender or any other external consideration, and if (as Bobo claims) there are no barriers to black people getting these jobs, then why do you think it is that the best person for the job is pretty much ALWAYS a white man?

Well, as I asked Pru, how many players of BEM origin go on to qualify as coaches? Are we honestly saying here that every fourth candidate for a coaching or managerial position is black?

[thebish]

Well, as I asked Pru, how many players of BEM origin go on to qualify as coaches? Are we honestly saying here that every fourth candidate for a coaching or managerial position is black?

I have no idea - I was just asking if you knew why there seems to be such a big disparity, that's all...

are you saying that black people are somehow worse at qualifying as coaches or for some reason predisposed to NOT going on coaching courses - or for some reason (what might that be?) not interested in being coaches? I am genuinely at a loss grasping what it is you think is the reason...

yes - I agree (to some extent) that the racism charge is an easy one to reach for... But the disparity seems so obvious that there must be some reason for it - and I'm struggling to grasp what you think it is if it isn't some form of racism.

[bobo the clown]

A good article in the Telegraph about this issue. I think Kieron Dyer talks a lot of sense and gives a bit of an insight into 'some' black players views on future coaching careers.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/footba ... -Rule.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My views exactly ... and my experience. Having worked in a US company who tried to impose their "diverse slate" processes for recruitment = (whereby every short-list HAD to have a diverse .... female, gay, black or whatever .... candidate on it. If there wasn't then we had to advertise externally and get one on, even when the appropriate internal candidate was staring you in the face. Managers were penalised at salary review/bonus time if their gender balance hadn't reached certain targets)
- two things became clear ;
i. The "victims" didn't want this solution. They wanted to get to their justified positions by dint of hard work, qualification and respect. They didn't want to be imposed in. They didn't want favours. They didn't want to be condescended to. They certainly didn't want to get a position and wonder whether they had earned it ... nor have their colleagues wonder whether it was genuine or imposed.
ii. The more solutions like this occurred (from US experience) the more that was demanded by the 'activist' thinkers. It never stopped, no-one there ever said 'I think we've done enough'. New attempts for new minorities were forever being proposed.

[Hoboh]

Best person for the job regardless of age, race, gender or any other external consideration. That's all.

I think everyone would agree with that, wouldn't they? question is - is that what's currently happening (keep Freedman out of it!!) - and if not, what, if anything, to do about it...

I think that's that is what's happening.

i am genuinely interested in what you think is happening, then...

if, as you claim, clubs are consistently choosing the best people to be coaches regardless of age, race, gender or any other external consideration, and if (as Bobo claims) there are no barriers to black people getting these jobs, then why do you think it is that the best person for the job is pretty much ALWAYS a white man?

Because there are more of them and filling posts like Labour (and Harriet desires) with quota's based on ethnicity or sex is just plain wrong, ref our local female parachuted in Labour MP who spends more time in Pakistan fighting for women's rights than she does her own constituents.
If you are good enough you will get the gig.

[Prufrock]

Best person for the job regardless of age, race, gender or any other external consideration. That's all.

I think everyone would agree with that, wouldn't they? question is - is that what's currently happening (keep Freedman out of it!!) - and if not, what, if anything, to do about it...

I think that's that is what's happening.

i am genuinely interested in what you think is happening, then...

if, as you claim, clubs are consistently choosing the best people to be coaches regardless of age, race, gender or any other external consideration, and if (as Bobo claims) there are no barriers to black people getting these jobs, then why do you think it is that the best person for the job is pretty much ALWAYS a white man?

Well, as I asked Pru, how many players of BEM origin go on to qualify as coaches? Are we honestly saying here that every fourth candidate for a coaching or managerial position is black?

I'd be v surprised if they were. I couldn't find any numbers, but my own anecdotal evidence would say more than 3.4% but nowhere 25% of the people on the courses. That might be why they're trying to get this fund going to nudge more black people into doing them!

But people are saying the "best person for the job". Not the best person who applies for the job, or starts on the courses that might lead to the job. My own "reckon" is that deliberate racism plays a very small part in why there are so few black and EM coaches. However, unless anyone has got an argument why we shouldn't expect, all things being equal, there to by 25 black managers in the top 100, then something is holding them back (I think it's nebulous, self-fulfilling and difficult to pin down, but it has to be there). I'm not that interested in the reason, tbh; rather in the result which is that out of our top 100 potential managers, we're losing about 22 of them. That's surely bad for the game.

We don't have to blame anyone, or call anyone a racist, but improving the levels of representation seems a no-brainer in terms of increasing the quality, which is what everyone wants.

[boltonboris]

We don't have to blame anyone, or call anyone a racist, but improving the levels of representation seems a no-brainer in terms of increasing the quality, which is what everyone wants.

Increasing the quality of what? Black managers, or just managers?

[wigan white]

We don't have to blame anyone, or call anyone a racist, but improving the levels of representation seems a no-brainer in terms of increasing the quality, which is what everyone wants.

Increasing the quality of what? Black managers, or just managers?

This is where I'm at. Surely we should be improving all coaches, regardless of skin colour. Are they putting money in to have more women coaches in the male game???

[thebish]

We don't have to blame anyone, or call anyone a racist, but improving the levels of representation seems a no-brainer in terms of increasing the quality, which is what everyone wants.

Increasing the quality of what? Black managers, or just managers?

I think he means drawing coaches from a bigger pool of candidates rather than (for whatever reason) the current situation of (mostly) only have white-bloke coaches might increase the chances of having good coaches in the game and thus increase the quality of coaching and hence the quality of football. theory being: the wider your search-field for candidates, the better chance you have of finding the good 'uns.

(I may be wrong, though - he may have meant summat entirely different - but that's how I read it.)

[bobo the clown]

We don't have to blame anyone, or call anyone a racist, but improving the levels of representation seems a no-brainer in terms of increasing the quality, which is what everyone wants.

Increasing the quality of what? Black managers, or just managers?

This is where I'm at. Surely we should be improving all coaches, regardless of skin colour. Are they putting money in to have more women coaches in the male game???

Women goalkeeping coaches. That's what the game needs more of.

[thebish]

^ that might interest Gerty! ;0)

[wigan white]

^ that might interest Gerty! ;0)

And dwarf managers, like Gimli from Lord of the Rings, now that would be ace

[Bruce Rioja]

I couldn't find any numbers

Right, so, anyone that doesn't simply accept things as you see them is therefore burying their head in the sand? Right oh.

[boltonboris]

We don't have to blame anyone, or call anyone a racist, but improving the levels of representation seems a no-brainer in terms of increasing the quality, which is what everyone wants.

Increasing the quality of what? Black managers, or just managers?

I think he means drawing coaches from a bigger pool of candidates rather than (for whatever reason) the current situation of (mostly) only have white-bloke coaches might increase the chances of having good coaches in the game and thus increase the quality of coaching and hence the quality of football. theory being: the wider your search-field for candidates, the better chance you have of finding the good 'uns.

(I may be wrong, though - he may have meant summat entirely different - but that's how I read it.)

Having more to choose from doesnt make the quality any better

[Worthy4England]

3.4% coaching jobs.

25% of players.

I used to think Boris' point was a good one, but it was the same 10 years ago. Watching football even in the nineties (so when Neil Lennon was playing) every team had three or four black players. Why aren't they getting coaching jobs then?

And how many go on to take their coaching badges?

So demographically, the UK is 86% white and 7.5% Asian, I'm guessing we should be reducing in a positive manner the number of black players, playing in the Football League, in favour of some more white players and some Asian players. I'm sure they'll vote for that one any day soon...

[LeverEnd]

I think Boris has a point on the last page about a generational thing. Like Bramble and Dyer say in that Telegraph article, not many of their black teammates showed a desire to coach or manage.
I think there might be a lag effect from the serious racism that occurred not that long ago. Black players would probably not have felt part of the footballing establishment, when they were getting horrible abuse and their employers and the authorities didn't seem to do a great deal about it for a while. So it would be understandable if many of them decided to move on from the game. Then you have young black players being coached almost exclusively by white guys like Dyer said.
I think it will catch up without quotas, but it might take a while. I'd be dead against quotas in terms of actual jobs, but I'm slowly coming round to the interview thing. Even though it might seem like lip service it may subtly change the views of some chairmen and let them see that what these guys have to offer, and that it's no different from what the white guys have.
Stuff that doesn't help was all that bollocks about a black players' union and Paul Ince bitching whilst being rubbish at his job, Sol Campbell being a dick. If that sort of thing sows seeds of doubt and makes boards consciously or subconsciously wary about shortlisting, maybe the obligatory interviews can serve to remove those barriers without forcing people into jobs. I'm still not keen on the idea though.