BFS - Youth Policy

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Eagle1905
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BFS - Youth Policy

Post by Eagle1905 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:18 pm

Hi Trotters fans

Palace fan here in peace. Well done on your promotion back to tier 2 and your improved ownership situation.

I'm a Palace fan AND PODCAST PRESENTER (DGFootball on iTunes, Acast and SoundCloud). I was very pro signing up Big Sam as I believe he's a real man of substance and fits our style well on the pitch. I think he's been painted terribly by the media over the year in terms of his style but this is a common thing for most British managers. I've read 80% of his autobiography and whilst I disagree with parts, he comes over as a true footballing guy. Can't say I believe him in terms of always being moral regarding agents etc. I also did not panic when he started slowly given his record at doing so. I think he could take us real places next year as he's got a talented squad, a supportive ownership and fans who do not demand pure ticky tacka football and who are patient in some respects.

Anyway, we currently have some injuries at CB and Sam was asked whether it counts as a crisis. He said no as we do have 2 fit senior players he considers CBs but if it were at his former clubs then it would constitute one and he'd have to play senior players out of position. Firstly, I don't consider the latter a crisis let alone sitting on 38 points and playing Burnley at home next. But it got me thinking about a perceived weakness I had of BFS when he came into the club (one I accepted as it was far outweighed by the positives - despite being keen on youth); he doesn't give youth a proper chance.

So I come to you to ask what his attitude was to giving the youth in the academy a chance? I only remember your RB and Nolan really. He's recently suggested he wants to at Palace.

1 Did he give youth a chance at Bolton? In the Prem too?
2. Was your youth system really good? Did he give proper runs to those not hyped too?
3. Talking of youth - how did our lad do on loan to you guys?
4. What other tips/advice would you give Palace fans about BFS?

We are enjoying our recent amazing run right now under him. I sometimes feel he makes too much of tiredness and freshness of players though.

Many thanks
DGFootball

P.S. Your stadium is possible the only modern ground I truly like apart from FC Thun's.

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Re: BFS - Youth Policy

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:33 pm

He'll give young players a chance, but is fairly selective. And won't throw them in until they are physically ready in his eyes.

He brought, Nolan, Hunt and Joey O'Brien through here. All had good careers really.

He's never going to craft a team out of your youth system though. Just not that type of manager. Having said that, most youth systems don't produce many premiership quality players so I believe that Allardyce is just doing the right thing. Give the few that are good enough the chances.

He's done an amazing job for you, as he has elsewhere.

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Re: BFS - Youth Policy

Post by Eagle1905 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:53 pm

Thanks Insane. Insightful, even if I don't agree with your assessment of youth. Example in hand - Lookman record at League 1 and sold for big money and seen as a Prem player in time. Kai Kai scores more at worse team at same level but did not cost the big fee so BFS doesn't give a chance to.

Pards was worse! Many other managers are the same too. Sadly our worst was probably Peter Taylor at Championship level who had been the England u21 boss!

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Re: BFS - Youth Policy

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:11 pm

Eagle1905 wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:53 pm
Thanks Insane. Insightful, even if I don't agree with your assessment of youth. Example in hand - Lookman record at League 1 and sold for big money and seen as a Prem player in time. Kai Kai scores more at worse team at same level but did not cost the big fee so BFS doesn't give a chance to.

Pards was worse! Many other managers are the same too. Sadly our worst was probably Peter Taylor at Championship level who had been the England u21 boss!
Majority of premiership academy players won't have premiership careers. That is a fact. And one might argue whether that is down to chances or them just not being good enough. I'd say easily the latter. Most will end up in lower league or non league football eventually. Just the way it is. And there aren't many who drop down leagues then prove their skill and end up back in the premiership. There are some, but not many.

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Re: BFS - Youth Policy

Post by Bruce Rioja » Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:50 pm

Eagle1905 wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:18 pm
3. Talking of youth - how did our lad do on loan to you guys?
Hia, mate. Which one? We've had a steady stream of them in recent years. I can tell you how Moxey's doing though, the useless c*nt. One of the worst players I've seen in my 42 years of watching us, so thanks for that one. ;)
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Re: BFS - Youth Policy

Post by Eagle1905 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:25 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:11 pm
Eagle1905 wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:53 pm
Thanks Insane. Insightful, even if I don't agree with your assessment of youth. Example in hand - Lookman record at League 1 and sold for big money and seen as a Prem player in time. Kai Kai scores more at worse team at same level but did not cost the big fee so BFS doesn't give a chance to.

Pards was worse! Many other managers are the same too. Sadly our worst was probably Peter Taylor at Championship level who had been the England u21 boss!
Majority of premiership academy players won't have premiership careers. That is a fact. And one might argue whether that is down to chances or them just not being good enough. I'd say easily the latter. Most will end up in lower league or non league football eventually. Just the way it is. And there aren't many who drop down leagues then prove their skill and end up back in the premiership. There are some, but not many.
The majority of players not having premiership careers is often for similar reasons British managers rarely have premiership careers. Perception plays a big part. Many academy players could do just as good a job as a squad player in the Prem, such as a Lucas at Liverpool. But the bar is held higher for them for some reason. Other factors include big fees for British players from football league clubs compared to those from say the French league etc.

Maybe easily summarised by the below which I posted on a Palace fans site:
but there is this crazy perception at many clubs (including Palace now) and in the media that:
1. It is a disaster if you have to play a youngster. It is a sign you have a terrible squad with less than 4 senior players for every position.
2. There is no way English youngsters can be good enough
3. A youngster is useless unless he was bought for big money
4. If given a game, people look for every tiny thing during a game to say a youth player is not ready but accept the same or worse performances and qualities from players who have been signed for a decent fee.
5. Youngsters should not be given anywhere near the sort of time
6. The excuses used for other players needing time to settle / not performing well do not apply to youngsters. They should actually have less time and ne held to a higher level
7. A player has to go out on loan to the Championship and excel to even be worthy of a place on the bench for a Prem club. Even then some of the numbers apply above (such as 4 and 5) so the conclusion is that it is a big jump between the Championship and the Prem.
8. You couldn't possibly ever put a youngster in a relegation battle or until you reach 40 points, but then you couldn't possibly justify putting them in a team not in a relegation battle too as if it ain't broke don't fix it. Then of course you have to put senior players players in a 'shop window', protect your investment, give Mutch another chance, every league position is £1m, you need to finish high to attract players to the club in the summer...
9. It is far better to play a senior player out of position than dare play a youngster, even in the cups.
10. It is far better to play someone 1% better on £35,000 a week getting worse by the week than someone improving by the game. It is not their fault that they came in cold too as they are a backup player and need a run of games. Youth players need no such run of games.
11. He needs to bulk up

These 11 aspects mean effectively players don't get a chance unless somehow they have massive hype around them. Spurs boss is a rare breed not to follow these rules thank god!

There are a lot of myth busters out there. For instance Kane did not excel at all particularly at Championship level when out on loan. Onomah has 13 appearances in the league over the last 2 seasons at Spurs and has had no loan spell away, Winks (19 leage appearances) has been started over Sissoko who cost £30m and has had no loan spell away from the club,

Southampton - Sims (no loan spell), Ward Prowse (no loan spell: Now England international), Stephens (only loaned significantly to League 1), Targett (no loan spells), McQueen (only loaned to league 1).

Yes Southampton may be category 1, but that impacts the facilities. Doesn't mean their players must be better. Their loan spells are no more impressive than many of our academy lads.

Clyne - Was not on the radar at all as a talent but shone. Therefore you don't always need hype and amazing performances at youth level to end up being the player who is good enough. Give a few youngsters a chance and you will be surprised who might be good enough and who won't. Even those not long term great players end up holding their own out of youthful exuberance. Look how well Soares did for a while on that.

I'm not sure Wilf or Moses would get a look in now! Both took serious time to develop on any sort of consistent basis at Championship level.

FINAL TRUTH: Lookman had 10 goals in 45 games at League 1 level and Palace fans wanted us to sign him and play him. Kai Kai had 12 in 26 games at the same level last season for a worse side and there is no uproar that he isn't started in cup games or on the bench etc.
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Re: Moxey: That is a massive shame. He was a top pro here. A big part of a positive dressing room and hungry player too. He was better going forward than defensively but a more than competent Championship player. I know someone from Exeter who knows him too and says he is a top lad, which he's seemed in interviews etc.... Shame about that.

I meant Keshi Anderson though

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Re: BFS - Youth Policy

Post by Worthy4England » Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:02 pm

A lot was said about Allardyce's policy on "youth" over the years. In the 2001/02 season; Nolan was 19. Hunt was 20 (but played prior to that), O'Brien was 19. Gardner was 23, Ricketts was 23, Jaaskelienen was mid 20's - season after, Mendy was 21..

So yes, around that time, he gave (relative) youth a chance. In the same teams, you had folks like Youri Djorkaeff, JJ Okocha. Campo etc. who were a lot older and the players that fans including our own, tend to remember more, for obvious reasons.

He didn't really develop "never heard of's" from the youth teams as far as I can recall (reasonable example of that might be Jon Walters who's had a reasonable career at Stoke - but actually toured the lower leagues after being with us for a considerable time, before "growing up" at Stoke).

I seem to recall looking at the average age of the first team squad a couple of years after Megson took over. From memory, the average age had gone up from 28 - 29...despite us unloading some folks who were mid-30's.

There were a number of players (like at Palace) who had the odd cameo's, did well and had the knuckle draggers calling for blood because they weren't playing every week. A good example of that would be Andranik Teymourian, who was around 23 when he played in a cup game and bossed midfield, scoring a couple on the way. Everyone screamed blue murder that he wasn't first name down. We released him a couple of years later, he went to Fulham and did precisely diddly squat. In 15 years he's managed 11 goals at levels way below where Bolton were at back then - so he probably isn't a bad judge...

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Re: BFS - Youth Policy

Post by Harry Genshaw » Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:35 pm

Some interesting points there Eagle.

Personally, I felt that was Sams biggest failing. He didn't give youth players a realistic chance to progress. Usually, they were only thrown in, in an emergency and then never seen again.

Nolan and Hunt were the exceptions. O'Brien as I recall was only thrown in for European matches and only got a run in the side once Sam had left.

Sam tended to chuck all the fringe and youth players in together in cup games which often resulted in humiliating defeats (Tranmere & Bury spring to mind ) & then castigate them for not taking their opportunity.

Funnily enough we saw some of what you alluded to last year and in the close season. Skint, going down and with players on bloated contracts, we threw more kids into the starting xi than we had in years.

I was half expecting to start the season with 6 or 7 academy players in the squad but many were released, sold and let go and replaced with more experienced loan players. The thing is, as with Allardyce, it's hard to argue with this approach when it's so successful. Had we gone with youth this year I'm sure we'd have been nowhere near promotion.
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Re: BFS - Youth Policy

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon May 01, 2017 7:26 pm

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:35 pm
Some interesting points there Eagle.

Personally, I felt that was Sams biggest failing. He didn't give youth players a realistic chance to progress. Usually, they were only thrown in, in an emergency and then never seen again.

Nolan and Hunt were the exceptions. O'Brien as I recall was only thrown in for European matches and only got a run in the side once Sam had left.

Sam tended to chuck all the fringe and youth players in together in cup games which often resulted in humiliating defeats (Tranmere & Bury spring to mind ) & then castigate them for not taking their opportunity.

Funnily enough we saw some of what you alluded to last year and in the close season. Skint, going down and with players on bloated contracts, we threw more kids into the starting xi than we had in years.

I was half expecting to start the season with 6 or 7 academy players in the squad but many were released, sold and let go and replaced with more experienced loan players. The thing is, as with Allardyce, it's hard to argue with this approach when it's so successful. Had we gone with youth this year I'm sure we'd have been nowhere near promotion.
O'Brien was given a decent run IIRC. Then got injured. Think he got ahead of Hunt for half a season or so.

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Re: BFS - Youth Policy

Post by Bruce Rioja » Mon May 01, 2017 8:22 pm

I see that Aaron Mooy, whilst currently on loan from Man City, has just been voted Huddersfield's player of the season. So well done us again.
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Re: BFS - Youth Policy

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon May 01, 2017 10:26 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Mon May 01, 2017 8:22 pm
I see that Aaron Mooy, whilst currently on loan from Man City, has just been voted Huddersfield's player of the season. So well done us again.
Looks a good player. In the clubs defence, however, when we released him we were in the premiership, then he went to St Mirren for a couple of years then back to Australia. So wasn't likely to get chances at the level we were playing at.

Now he's 26 and doing well at the level below.

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Re: BFS - Youth Policy

Post by Bruce Rioja » Mon May 01, 2017 10:43 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon May 01, 2017 10:26 pm
Bruce Rioja wrote:
Mon May 01, 2017 8:22 pm
I see that Aaron Mooy, whilst currently on loan from Man City, has just been voted Huddersfield's player of the season. So well done us again.
Looks a good player. In the clubs defence, however, when we released him we were in the premiership, then he went to St Mirren for a couple of years then back to Australia. So wasn't likely to get chances at the level we were playing at.

Now he's 26 and doing well at the level below.
He's one of a list, though! The whole idea of us investing in our academy set-up is for the very management of that set-up [s to recognise that. Oh, and he's won player of the year at a club that played in a league above us, this season.
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Re: BFS - Youth Policy

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon May 01, 2017 11:01 pm

:Jedi:
Bruce Rioja wrote:
Mon May 01, 2017 10:43 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon May 01, 2017 10:26 pm
Bruce Rioja wrote:
Mon May 01, 2017 8:22 pm
I see that Aaron Mooy, whilst currently on loan from Man City, has just been voted Huddersfield's player of the season. So well done us again.
Looks a good player. In the clubs defence, however, when we released him we were in the premiership, then he went to St Mirren for a couple of years then back to Australia. So wasn't likely to get chances at the level we were playing at.

Now he's 26 and doing well at the level below.
He's one of a list, though! The whole idea of us investing in our academy set-up is for the very management of that set-up [s to recognise that. Oh, and he's won player of the year at a club that played in a league above us, this season.
Yeah. But I think if you release a player as a Premiership club and they go to St Mirren for a few years it's hard to really criticise as at Bolton he'd have not developed here as he'd not have seen 1st team games.

I'm not sure we've released a lot of players who were or have gone on to become good enough for the level we were at when we let them go.

You'd end up with massive academy if you just kept every lad who in a few years might be ok, or might be ok if you suffer a few relegations. Not saying mistakes haven't been made, but I think it's pretty tough especially at premiership level.

Do you keep lads who are years off ever being good enough for that level, and probably won't ever be, just in case?

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Re: BFS - Youth Policy

Post by Harry Genshaw » Mon May 01, 2017 11:12 pm

I think generally most youth players would benefit from a run of a dozen or so games in the first team before any judgement is made. When you look back at the 70s & 80s that tended to be the way. Now, the pressure of results means if they don't immediately impress they're cast aside pretty quickly.

Most then drift downwards and out of the game. A few come back. Scary how close we came to Vela being driven out of the club by Freedman
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Re: BFS - Youth Policy

Post by Bruce Rioja » Tue May 02, 2017 10:30 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon May 01, 2017 11:01 pm
Yeah. But I think if you release a player as a Premiership club and they go to St Mirren for a few years it's hard to really criticise as at Bolton he'd have not developed here as he'd not have seen 1st team games.
Then it may have been within our own interests to have loaned him to St' Mirren in exactly the same way that bigger clubs than us have loaned us players in the past, for the very reason you state that they wouldn't have otherwise got game time.
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Re: BFS - Youth Policy

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue May 02, 2017 10:41 am

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 10:30 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon May 01, 2017 11:01 pm
Yeah. But I think if you release a player as a Premiership club and they go to St Mirren for a few years it's hard to really criticise as at Bolton he'd have not developed here as he'd not have seen 1st team games.
Then it may have been within our own interests to have loaned him to St' Mirren in exactly the same way that bigger clubs than us have loaned us players in the past, for the very reason you state that they wouldn't have otherwise got game time.
Don't disagree. I guess the problem is you can't keep everyone. So decisions have to be made. I suspect if you are in the premiership and have been for a while, the decision is whether said player is likely to make premiership grade within the next few years.

Given he didn't, I still cannot criticise them over that decision, specifically at least.

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Re: BFS - Youth Policy

Post by Abdoulaye's Twin » Tue May 02, 2017 10:49 am

Wasn't Mooy the Aussie fella that wanted to leave, presumably because he reckoned he had fcuk all chance of getting a chance.

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Re: BFS - Youth Policy

Post by Worthy4England » Tue May 02, 2017 10:58 am

Abdoulaye's Twin wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 10:49 am
Wasn't Mooy the Aussie fella that wanted to leave, presumably because he reckoned he had fcuk all chance of getting a chance.
Yup - went back to Oz, if I'm not mistaken (there might have been a "via" in there)

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Re: BFS - Youth Policy

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue May 02, 2017 11:04 am

Worthy4England wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 10:58 am
Abdoulaye's Twin wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 10:49 am
Wasn't Mooy the Aussie fella that wanted to leave, presumably because he reckoned he had fcuk all chance of getting a chance.
Yup - went back to Oz, if I'm not mistaken (there might have been a "via" in there)
Via St Mirren I think....

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Re: BFS - Youth Policy

Post by boltonboris » Thu May 04, 2017 5:07 pm

If they're good enough, he'll play them. But it;s hard to throw them into a relegation fight when he's only just walked in. He's firefighting and you need grown ups for that.

If he's given time, he'll introduce them
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