European Finals.

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Re: European Finals.

Post by TANGODANCER » Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:01 pm

My two lira of input, for that's what it's probably worth, but since it's all over, why not.:

"We" watched the ball and occasionally attacked it. "They" watched the man and took him out every time. Refereeing ( aided by the F.A. RULE BOOKS ) has totally lost the plot.That blatant garrott attack gets a yellow, and yet an accidental arm brush a possible red and a sending off as well as a penalty? Crazy. It was like Rattin's Argentina re-lived.

The Italians invented pass and move football outside of South America, they don't control passes, just move the ball on at speed. Our shading players and showing them here and there can't live with it. Just how much time after half-an-hour, did we spend in our own half chasing shadows?.That's why we lost, not on penalties. We had more hole than Swiss cheese. Who'd be a goalie facing penalties anyway, with so much at stake?

Chiesa caused more damage on his own than all our forwards together.He frightened the life out of us every time he got the ball. I felt sorry for Harry Kane who did everything right, he was just a lone wolf amongst a pack of hyenas but our persistent wellying the ball back to them was as frustrating as it was pointless. Our defence, Walker, Maguire, Stones etc, were blameless, we lost the game in midfield and a non existent attack.

Bottom line, we were outplayed by a better (diving, acting, fouling bunch of savages) side who handled us with ease. Credit to the lads for their efforts during the tournament, but best team in Europe, we ain't. One day, maybe.

I hear the howling of wolves... :wink:
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Re: European Finals.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:06 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:01 pm
My two lira of input, for that's what it's probably worth, but since it's all over, why not.:

"We" watched the ball and occasionally attacked it. "They" watched the man and took him out every time. Refereeing ( aided by the F.A. RULE BOOKS ) has totally lost the plot.That blatant garrott attack gets a yellow, and yet an accidental arm brush a possible red and a sending off as well as a penalty? Crazy. It was like Rattin's Argentina re-lived.

The Italians invented pass and move football outside of South America, they don't control passes, just move the ball on at speed. Our shading players and showing them here and there can't live with it. Just how much time after half-an-hour, did we spend in our own half chasing shadows?.That's why we lost, not on penalties. We had more hole than Swiss cheese. Who'd be a goalie facing penalties anyway, with so much at stake?

Chiesa caused more damage on his own than all our forwards together.He frightened the life out of us every time he got the ball. I felt sorry for Harry Kane who did everything right, he was just a lone wolf amongst a pack of hyenas but our persistent wellying the ball back to them was as frustrating as it was pointless. Our defence, Walker, Maguire, Stones etc, were blameless, we lost the game in midfield and a non existent attack.

Bottom line, we were outplayed by a better (diving, acting, fouling bunch of savages) side who handled us with ease. Credit to the lads for their efforts during the tournament, but best team in Europe, we ain't. One day, maybe.

I hear the howling of wolves... :wink:
Yeah good point on the ref who was absolute bobbins and allowed Kane and Sterling and Mount to be fouled continually.

Agree with majority of that tbh. Our attack was blunt because we lost the midfield. I honestly think that we knew Italy would have a lot of the ball but suspect we just lacked a bit of energy. Perhaps again the early goal and mad 15 minutes after did us no favours as for the first time in the tournament really Rice was making lung busting runs all over the show early doors but perhaps that was not really by design but adrenaline getting the better of him. And that caught up with us.

I think Italy were always going to boss midfield but our big problem was when we turned possession over Phillips, Rice and Mount especially lost the ball far too often. Our problem was perhaps that we'd set up to play a more controlled game but the early goal encouraged a bit of recklessness.

Honestly do think if we'd had an extra 24 hours rest vs Italy we'd probably have dug the 1-0 out or caught them on the break in the last 20 as they threw more and more forwards.

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Re: European Finals.

Post by Harry Genshaw » Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:52 pm

Funny game isn't it? I thought the referee was very good. Let the game flow, yellows at the right time etc.

Italy mixed it up after they'd spent the first 20 minutes looking totally bewildered, so our dominance was never going to last. They're a very good side with better midfielders than we have. We ran them very close. I'm aghast that the manager should be subject to any criticism.

As others have said - I sincerely hope the Twitter racists are caught, fined, imprisoned and banned. Scumbags
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Re: European Finals.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:44 pm

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:52 pm
Funny game isn't it? I thought the referee was very good. Let the game flow, yellows at the right time etc.

Italy mixed it up after they'd spent the first 20 minutes looking totally bewildered, so our dominance was never going to last. They're a very good side with better midfielders than we have. We ran them very close. I'm aghast that the manager should be subject to any criticism.

As others have said - I sincerely hope the Twitter racists are caught, fined, imprisoned and banned. Scumbags
He let the game flow but often missed fouls. The challenge on Grealish towards the end - that's a red for me. I thought he was overly lenient and the Italians took advantage a bit. You could say in allowing the game to flow and not picking up the challenges so much it perhaps harmed the impact some of our players could have....

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Re: European Finals.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:54 pm

Just listened to Gary Neville who to paraphrase believes England got to the final in the only way they could with the players available. Think he's spot on here - he's been a Southgate critic as have I, but its easy to say throw this and that player in but the reality is England went further than they have in 55 years. The reality is probably rather like many club sides that we had to make the best of the available players.

Also he spoke brilliantly on the racism and went straight to the heart of the problem. We need more and more and more people speaking up and nailing Boris Johnson like this. He's spot on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnblTAfuv5w

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Re: European Finals.

Post by Harry Genshaw » Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:15 pm

^ I feel mucky just saying it but God, I'm actually starting to really like Gary Neville.
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Re: European Finals.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:17 pm

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:15 pm
^ I feel mucky just saying it but God, I'm actually starting to really like Gary Neville.
Yeah I'm not his biggest fan at all but god he's talked sense these past few weeks. He's growing on me.

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Re: European Finals.

Post by TANGODANCER » Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:36 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:44 pm

He let the game flow but often missed fouls. The challenge on Grealish towards the end - that's a red for me. I thought he was overly lenient and the Italians took advantage a bit. You could say in allowing the game to flow and not picking up the challenges so much it perhaps harmed the impact some of our players could have....
Sterling should also have had a penalty. I think the occasion had a bearing on the ref's decisions and he was afraid of being too honest.
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Re: European Finals.

Post by Hoboh » Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:19 pm

Think Sterling virtually blew any chance of being awarded a penalty after the previous 'soft one'. Probably classified as a diver in the refs mind.
Bell end racists need routing out and dealing with firmly although like most other 'justice', I doubt it.

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Re: European Finals.

Post by TANGODANCER » Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:52 pm

Hoboh wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:19 pm

Bell end racists need routing out and dealing with firmly although like most other 'justice', I doubt it.
They ( the not rights)are still a minority element compared to decent football fans in general.They just need a cause to hate the world for. If the punishments were savage enough they might not be so keen to be "different".
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Re: European Finals.

Post by nicholaldo » Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:10 pm

I still think that before we can win an international tournament we need a quality midfield pivot. We haven't yet produce a player like that.

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Re: European Finals.

Post by Harry Genshaw » Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:30 pm

nicholaldo wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:10 pm
I still think that before we can win an international tournament we need a quality midfield pivot. We haven't yet produce a player like that.
We rarely do, although this generation have the most flair since the 70s lot. Germany are the model to aspire too. Often producing great sides of players who don't always have the best technical skills but all know their jobs and possess great intelligence and mental strength.
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Re: European Finals.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:55 pm

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:30 pm
nicholaldo wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:10 pm
I still think that before we can win an international tournament we need a quality midfield pivot. We haven't yet produce a player like that.
We rarely do, although this generation have the most flair since the 70s lot. Germany are the model to aspire too. Often producing great sides of players who don't always have the best technical skills but all know their jobs and possess great intelligence and mental strength.
Nah. We have more than enough technical footballers. What we lacked was a couple of midfield players who could get about, move the ball and basically do the complete job or one great one. Phillips and Rice played above themselves but in reality are limited and it showed last night. And Henderson wasn’t fit. He didn’t do it for England in his time but a peak Gerrard would have probably completed this team. Or obviously a Gascoigne. We just needed that player in midfield who could do a bit more than just working hard.

I don’t think we lacked for much other than the quality in midfield to control the ball better than we did.

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Re: European Finals.

Post by Prufrock » Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:50 am

I've said enough about how I don't think Southgate is up to it as manager, but the way he carries himself and does all the rest of the job is phenomenal, and what a set of players. Just lovely, engaged, switched on lads.

I really hope they, and particularly Saka, Sancho and Rashers have seen the overwhelming support they've got today.
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Re: European Finals.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:21 am

Prufrock wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:50 am
I've said enough about how I don't think Southgate is up to it as manager, but the way he carries himself and does all the rest of the job is phenomenal, and what a set of players. Just lovely, engaged, switched on lads.

I really hope they, and particularly Saka, Sancho and Rashers have seen the overwhelming support they've got today.
His man management which is a huge part of the job is as good as anyone I’ve seen. He might be cautious but I’d say overall given he’s done the best job since sir Alf he’s the only real option for the job.

On the other hand some good is coming out of this as the backlash against racism has been stirring.

And Tyrone Mings calling out Priti Patel and Gary Neville calling out Johnson is of course raising a crucial issue of the racism right at the top of the country. Something the media were too scared to tackle.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57778668

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Re: European Finals.

Post by Mar » Sat Jul 17, 2021 12:59 pm

Plenty of time to digest the tournament and Southgate's performance as manager.

Southgate's done a marvellous job for the most part but is need of some tactical help. Off the pitch he has been great, prior to the game he's been thoughtful and well intentioned in his approach. On the pitch he seems tactically slow and persisting when things aren't working.

For the Croatia game to pan out the same against Italy shows how prone we are to letting the game slip away from us. We need a means of regrouping and changing the game in our favour. We needed a second goal against Italy and it didn't come and we sat back too much. A more tactically astute manager would've identified this and addressed it. I think for Southgate he needs the time and that was a luxury he didn't have.

I can understand why he got Middlesbrough relegated, lack of quality plus needing time and being slow to tactically change a game in his favour. He seems to have progressed a lot since then. Seems like he's just missing a little piece of that managerial puzzle. I'm just hoping he finds it.

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Re: European Finals.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Jul 17, 2021 4:56 pm

Mar wrote:
Sat Jul 17, 2021 12:59 pm
Plenty of time to digest the tournament and Southgate's performance as manager.

Southgate's done a marvellous job for the most part but is need of some tactical help. Off the pitch he has been great, prior to the game he's been thoughtful and well intentioned in his approach. On the pitch he seems tactically slow and persisting when things aren't working.

For the Croatia game to pan out the same against Italy shows how prone we are to letting the game slip away from us. We need a means of regrouping and changing the game in our favour. We needed a second goal against Italy and it didn't come and we sat back too much. A more tactically astute manager would've identified this and addressed it. I think for Southgate he needs the time and that was a luxury he didn't have.

I can understand why he got Middlesbrough relegated, lack of quality plus needing time and being slow to tactically change a game in his favour. He seems to have progressed a lot since then. Seems like he's just missing a little piece of that managerial puzzle. I'm just hoping he finds it.
We needed a midfield good enough to compete with Italy’s and didn’t have one. We conceded a lot of the ball but they scored from a scabby scrappy corner goal. So I’m not convinced tactically there was many options we had. Henderson was the option but was awful when he came on. If you swapped one of our midfield two for Verratti we’d have won quite comfortably. The quality in the centre just wasn’t quite there and we had to play to accommodate that. I also think we clearly ran a bit out of energy. As Mourinho said after you can talk tactics all you want but players are people and England were one nil up and running out of energy their dropping back ten yards is natural.

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Re: European Finals.

Post by Prufrock » Sat Jul 17, 2021 5:02 pm

3v2
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Re: European Finals.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Jul 17, 2021 5:38 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Sat Jul 17, 2021 5:02 pm
3v2
Yeah but it worked initially didn’t it?

And like I say our options to add a third were the dreadful Henderson or the inexperienced Bellingham. It’s easy to throw tactics out but I think as Mourinho bar the corner and a couple of decent saves Italy didn’t really create much. Had we won he’d be a genius. And we might have been clearing a corner from winning. Reverse the semi finals order I also think we’d probably win.

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Re: European Finals.

Post by Prufrock » Sat Jul 17, 2021 5:51 pm

No. We scored but it handed them the midfield and they were always then going to dominate over 90 which they did. And eventually scored. It was Croatia all over again.

And no they weren't the options. You play Sancho (or more likely Saka) and put Mount in there.

"Throwing tactics out" is exactly why we didn't win.

There very strong in the middle, we asked two to play against a very good three. They're relatively weak up top, we had an extra unnecessary body. Not only that, Jorginho is a top player of you give him time, but you can get after him, he's not quick strong or athletic, but he was always free because they had an extra man.

Even at the start of extra time when we were matched shaped we controlled the game.

You're absolutely right that if we defended a set piece better we might have won the game. We're a good side, and it's fine margins. We might have won it on pens. If we'd played 433 we might have lost. Football isn't a game where you put the inputs in and you get a settled response. All you can do as a manager before a game is set up to give yourself the best chance of winning X games out of a hundred, and then you hope the players perform and it goes your way.

IMO Southgate didn't do that. Match Italy in midfield and we win that game a lot more than we lose. Play the way he did and we lose more than we win.
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