European Finals.

There ARE other teams(we'd have no-one to play otherwise) and here's where all-comers can discuss the wider world of football......

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Re: European Finals.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:04 pm

Some goal that. Though first touch was off his face.

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Re: European Finals.

Post by Prufrock » Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:14 pm

Feel for Austria. Matched Italy and done it by being brave and trying to win.
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Re: European Finals.

Post by Prufrock » Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:26 pm

Oosh.
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Re: European Finals.

Post by jmjhb » Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:40 pm

Belotti with one of the worst cameos I've seen. Overweight, slow AND has no neck. Absolutely useless

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Re: European Finals.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:56 pm

Austria did well. But there was no point where I ever seriously thought Italy would lose. Not sure what that says but Italy v Belgium or Portugal could be fascinating.

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Re: European Finals.

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun Jun 27, 2021 7:14 am

Austria did themselves proud and showed what we've already talked about in terms of beating Italy. Shut down the Italian out ball over the left fullback, exploited the space Jorginho leaves in behind when he steps up, denied Spinazzola space to run into and were tight at the back to show up Italy's lack of an exceptional attacking talent. I'm not sure they could have done more.

I enjoyed the game. Will be interesting to see how badly that extra time hits the Italians in the next round.

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Re: European Finals.

Post by Bruce Rioja » Sun Jun 27, 2021 9:19 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:56 pm
Austria did well. But there was no point where I ever seriously thought Italy would lose.
Indeed. However, I'm sure I wasn't alone in hoping Italy's collective arse might fall out in those final five minutes and Austria might have got it to pens. Ah well.
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Re: European Finals.

Post by TANGODANCER » Sun Jun 27, 2021 11:01 am

A really entertaining match that, on the night, either team could have won. For me, the ridiculous offside rules are ruining football. A man can be offside, easily seen, not his shoe or kneecap. Rugby has offside, based on common sense; football has lost he plot. Austria could feel aggrieved at their dismissal despite Italy skills, because they never stopped trying right to the end, but they can go home with a lot of pride. Small consolation I know, but that's life.

I just hope that the media hype like "The Sun" band-waggon jumpers, doesn't distract our own lads attention away from their target.
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Re: European Finals.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Jun 27, 2021 11:13 am

TANGODANCER wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 11:01 am
A really entertaining match that, on the night, either team could have won. For me, the ridiculous offside rules are ruining football. A man can be offside, easily seen, not his shoe or kneecap. Rugby has offside, based on common sense; football has lost he plot. Austria could feel aggrieved at their dismissal despite Italy skills, because they never stopped trying right to the end, but they can go home with a lot of pride. Small consolation I know, but that's life.

I just hope that the media hype like "The Sun" band-waggon jumpers, doesn't distract our own lads attention away from their target.
Offside is binary though. You either are or you aren’t. If you introduce some form of buffer or introduce some common sense application you will just revert to inconsistency again.

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Re: European Finals.

Post by Prufrock » Sun Jun 27, 2021 12:46 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:56 pm
Austria did well. But there was no point where I ever seriously thought Italy would lose. Not sure what that says but Italy v Belgium or Portugal could be fascinating.
Really? Not when they looked to have gone 1-0 up with about 25 to go?

I thought they looked as likely as Italy.
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Re: European Finals.

Post by Prufrock » Sun Jun 27, 2021 12:48 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 11:13 am
TANGODANCER wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 11:01 am
A really entertaining match that, on the night, either team could have won. For me, the ridiculous offside rules are ruining football. A man can be offside, easily seen, not his shoe or kneecap. Rugby has offside, based on common sense; football has lost he plot. Austria could feel aggrieved at their dismissal despite Italy skills, because they never stopped trying right to the end, but they can go home with a lot of pride. Small consolation I know, but that's life.

I just hope that the media hype like "The Sun" band-waggon jumpers, doesn't distract our own lads attention away from their target.
Offside is binary though. You either are or you aren’t. If you introduce some form of buffer or introduce some common sense application you will just revert to inconsistency again.
I think the obsession with drawing lines is a collective madness from lawmakers who have forgotten the point of the offside rule.

VAR should get three looks at it (all decisions, including offside) in real time and if aren't sure it's wrong from that you stay with the on field decision.
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Re: European Finals.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Jun 27, 2021 1:10 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 12:48 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 11:13 am
TANGODANCER wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 11:01 am
A really entertaining match that, on the night, either team could have won. For me, the ridiculous offside rules are ruining football. A man can be offside, easily seen, not his shoe or kneecap. Rugby has offside, based on common sense; football has lost he plot. Austria could feel aggrieved at their dismissal despite Italy skills, because they never stopped trying right to the end, but they can go home with a lot of pride. Small consolation I know, but that's life.

I just hope that the media hype like "The Sun" band-waggon jumpers, doesn't distract our own lads attention away from their target.
Offside is binary though. You either are or you aren’t. If you introduce some form of buffer or introduce some common sense application you will just revert to inconsistency again.
I think the obsession with drawing lines is a collective madness from lawmakers who have forgotten the point of the offside rule.

VAR should get three looks at it (all decisions, including offside) in real time and if aren't sure it's wrong from that you stay with the on field decision.
How would that make it any better? You either are or you aren’t offside. Adding an extra layer of ‘well that was obvious yet they didn’t overrule it’ isn’t the answer. I’m not a fan of VAR but in this tournament it’s been used relatively well. For me if you want offside to become non binary then it needs a change in the law. Nobody on a screen can necessarily agree without lines and the lines take the judgement call away. I repeat the laws of the game state you either are or you aren’t offside. I don’t see any argument that ball over the line has to be clear…it’s measured down to sub millimetre level. Why is offside different?

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Re: European Finals.

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun Jun 27, 2021 1:11 pm

VAR has worked pretty well until English refs get involved in the decision making. The Austrian goal was offside, twice. The only issue was with the time taken to decide. It was an easy call that took the English team forever.

The technology and rules are not really the issue. The standard of officiating is.

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Re: European Finals.

Post by The_Gun » Sun Jun 27, 2021 1:12 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 12:46 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:56 pm
Austria did well. But there was no point where I ever seriously thought Italy would lose. Not sure what that says but Italy v Belgium or Portugal could be fascinating.
Really? Not when they looked to have gone 1-0 up with about 25 to go?

I thought they looked as likely as Italy.
Yep, I was at the match last night and Italy didn’t look any great shakes. I think I’d be more confident of England beating them than I am us beating Germany.

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Re: European Finals.

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun Jun 27, 2021 1:19 pm

The_Gun wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 1:12 pm
Yep, I was at the match last night and Italy didn’t look any great shakes. I think I’d be more confident of England beating them than I am us beating Germany.
I'm not so sure there. That's the worst Italy have been in months and they still didn't concede in the 90.

Not sure I'd fancy a Southgate team breaking them down.

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Re: European Finals.

Post by The_Gun » Sun Jun 27, 2021 1:40 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 1:19 pm
The_Gun wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 1:12 pm
Yep, I was at the match last night and Italy didn’t look any great shakes. I think I’d be more confident of England beating them than I am us beating Germany.
I'm not so sure there. That's the worst Italy have been in months and they still didn't concede in the 90.

Not sure I'd fancy a Southgate team breaking them down.
Not sure I’d fancy them breaking us down either.

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Re: European Finals.

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun Jun 27, 2021 2:15 pm

If Italy play like they did yesterday then they'll struggle to score against England. If they play like they did in the previous three games they will score. I don't fancy any of England's displays thus far being good enough to get through Italy in 90 minutes with anything like reliability.

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Re: European Finals.

Post by Prufrock » Sun Jun 27, 2021 2:19 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 1:10 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 12:48 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 11:13 am
TANGODANCER wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 11:01 am
A really entertaining match that, on the night, either team could have won. For me, the ridiculous offside rules are ruining football. A man can be offside, easily seen, not his shoe or kneecap. Rugby has offside, based on common sense; football has lost he plot. Austria could feel aggrieved at their dismissal despite Italy skills, because they never stopped trying right to the end, but they can go home with a lot of pride. Small consolation I know, but that's life.

I just hope that the media hype like "The Sun" band-waggon jumpers, doesn't distract our own lads attention away from their target.
Offside is binary though. You either are or you aren’t. If you introduce some form of buffer or introduce some common sense application you will just revert to inconsistency again.
I think the obsession with drawing lines is a collective madness from lawmakers who have forgotten the point of the offside rule.

VAR should get three looks at it (all decisions, including offside) in real time and if aren't sure it's wrong from that you stay with the on field decision.
How would that make it any better? You either are or you aren’t offside. Adding an extra layer of ‘well that was obvious yet they didn’t overrule it’ isn’t the answer. I’m not a fan of VAR but in this tournament it’s been used relatively well. For me if you want offside to become non binary then it needs a change in the law. Nobody on a screen can necessarily agree without lines and the lines take the judgement call away. I repeat the laws of the game state you either are or you aren’t offside. I don’t see any argument that ball over the line has to be clear…it’s measured down to sub millimetre level. Why is offside different?
It would make it better because it wouldn't take five minutes to work out if someone's toenail was offside or not.

I don't want it to become "non-binary", but that's a specious distinction for two reasons.

Firstly, the current offside method is not "scientific". They present it like it is but it's still a judgement call from the people running it as to where to draw the lines. You say it's binary but the guidance says for example that your "arm" can't be offside, and that your "arm" doesn't include your shoulder. That's a judgement call. Then there's the technological limitations. They still don't have the frames per second rate to show exactly when the ball is kicked, and the protocol says they can't use a frame before it has been kicked, only after. So if the penultimate frame is a millisecond before it's kicked, the one they use you can sometimes see the ball has already gone.

And I'm far from convinced they use a high enough resolution when drawing the line to make sure they get it exactly right. A pixel here or there would be enough on some of these calls.

Secondly, there are hundreds of other decisions a game which would be black or white. Who did that corner/goal kick touch last (one of the examples that got used to argue for goal line technology was that Clint Hill "goal" against us for QPR, but that shouldn't have been a corner anyway, that was a black or white decision).

Obviously whether a goal is offside or not is more important that who gets a throw in on halfway but my point is we accept it isn't as simple as is it black or white, there are other factors on what we should use the technology for.

So the main arguments against are how long it takes, and a general presumption against ruining the emotions in the game by changing decisions (so only change those that are obviously wrong), and then to a lesser extent leaving the refereeing of games to the referees.

I just don't see what the pros are to getting the lines out. The point of the offside rule is to stop strikers goal hanging and the bonus it brings to the game is it squashes the space to play in. Defences can use it but there's no element of skill involved it catching someone offside by 1mm (obviously there is in catching someone offside generally, but if it's that tight there's a huge element of luck). If someone's not clearly offside from three real time replays I don't think you can complain, and vice versa. Once you take the clear errors out you're not punishing any skill and you take away the farce of 5 minutes of nonsense to rule goals out.
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Re: European Finals.

Post by Prufrock » Sun Jun 27, 2021 2:24 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 2:15 pm
If Italy play like they did yesterday then they'll struggle to score against England. If they play like they did in the previous three games they will score. I don't fancy any of England's displays thus far being good enough to get through Italy in 90 minutes with anything like reliability.
I'm sticking with what I said in the group stages, they haven't played anyone. Austria played well yesterday but they're bang average. They beat 10 man Wales 1-0 (albeit with a lot of changes and already through), a bad Switzerland who gifted them at least one, and a truly dreadful Turkey.

They're a good side but they're not that good. They definitely could beat England, but also vice versa.

I somehow don't think we're going to get to find out.
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Re: European Finals.

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:06 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 2:24 pm
I somehow don't think we're going to get to find out.
Yup. They're in the the hardest half and we are a bit crap, so both of us will have a tough time getting to the final. If we can beat Germany we probably have a better chance than they do, purely because of the draw.

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