Football Finances - Reform

There ARE other teams(we'd have no-one to play otherwise) and here's where all-comers can discuss the wider world of football......

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BWFC_Insane
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Football Finances - Reform

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed May 19, 2021 9:51 am

I was watching the Chelsea - Leicester game last night and in between watching the FGR-Newport play off.

I was struck that I had a whatsapp message saying Chelsea have 'won the right game here'. And it got me thinking. I had a mooch on the Leicester forum to see what their fans were saying and whilst a few were 'who cares we just won the FA cup' the overriding sense was of complaint re Rodgers tactics, the performance etc....not giddy excitement that they've won the FA cup for the first time in their history. Just 'well we've thrown this season away'. Leicester went into the game last night with 3 or 4 key players out injured and Maddison started who hasn't hit form since his injury. So they were always going to struggle potentially after Saturday and no doubt the celebrations.

But then to me it was clear that Chelsea wouldn't swap their FA Cup defeat for beating Leicester in the league. If you consider champions league football is worth at least £30M you can to an extent understand why.

But here's the problem - Leicester fans by their own admission want the top 4 purely for money. They aren't going to win the champions league. So its a case of getting there, pocketing the money, perhaps signing one good player - but then of course having more games in the season and potentially struggling overall. Chelsea and the like just want to be in it because it helps them maintain their financial dominance over the clubs like Leicester.

So I was thinking how can this be evened out? And I had an idea....

How about the PL force champions league qualifiers to surrender their TV rights income from the competition to support the lower leagues? They can keep the money that is paid directly for qualifying and for progress - but the TV income is shared down the leagues. This would stop the CL being so absolutely crucial for clubs - it would relieve some of the 4th/5th shelf pressure and of course it would make the PL more equitable whilst at the same time perhaps allowing Newport to stop playing on a field. Now the obvious issue is why would the clubs vote for it? I'd argue 13/14 premiership clubs have absolutely no reason NOT to support it. So any better suggestions to solve this problem?

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Re: Football Finances - Reform

Post by boltonboris » Wed May 19, 2021 12:33 pm

Why would the 'fans' want the club to win money, instead of trophies? It beggars belief.

Leicester winning the FA Cup should be everything to them.. A million times more important than finishing 4th in the league..
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Re: Football Finances - Reform

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed May 19, 2021 12:40 pm

boltonboris wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 12:33 pm
Why would the 'fans' want the club to win money, instead of trophies? It beggars belief.

Leicester winning the FA Cup should be everything to them.. A million times more important than finishing 4th in the league..
Yes of course. But clearly it may well be that way with some but it isn’t with all. And that’s a problem.

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Re: Football Finances - Reform

Post by Prufrock » Wed May 19, 2021 2:12 pm

It's the whole Prem thing isn't it, it messes with people's minds. Like Lisbon and Wigan.
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Re: Football Finances - Reform

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed May 19, 2021 2:56 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 2:12 pm
It's the whole Prem thing isn't it, it messes with people's minds. Like Lisbon and Wigan.
To an extent. But it got me thinking.

At my age now I'd far far rather we won an FA cup or anything over say premiership promotion or survival or champions league qualification.

But if you're a 23 year old Leicester fan - the excitement of champions league qualification the money it brings, better players it might bring etc...you can see the argument over 'won the FA cup' that impacts in no way on our future success. Especially if said fan hasn't followed the club forever....

Lisbon and Wigan is a case in point to an extent. Getting relegated eventually nearly left us without a club. So what was the right call? It cuts both ways. But I do think the sadness for me is greater looking at the 'top 4' and how utterly obsessed clubs now have to be with it.

Take the money away though and suddenly its a different scenario entirely.

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Re: Football Finances - Reform

Post by Bruce Rioja » Wed May 19, 2021 4:02 pm

boltonboris wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 12:33 pm
Why would the 'fans' want the club to win money, instead of trophies? It beggars belief.

Leicester winning the FA Cup should be everything to them.. A million times more important than finishing 4th in the league..
My mate The Blue Nose couldn't have cared less that Brum got relegated in the same season they beat Arsenal in the League Cup final. He's seen them win something and they were always going to be relegated one day anyway. I'm sure most Wigan fans feel the same about winning the FA Cup. Something that both sets have seen their clubs achieve, regardless as to whatever else happens thereafter.

I'd love to see us win a major trophy - it really would be the absolute highlight.
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Re: Football Finances - Reform

Post by boltonboris » Wed May 19, 2021 4:06 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 4:02 pm
boltonboris wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 12:33 pm
Why would the 'fans' want the club to win money, instead of trophies? It beggars belief.

Leicester winning the FA Cup should be everything to them.. A million times more important than finishing 4th in the league..
My mate The Blue Nose couldn't have cared less that Brum got relegated in the same season they beat Arsenal in the League Cup final. He's seen them win something and they were always going to be relegated one day anyway. I'm sure most Wigan fans feel the same about winning the FA Cup. Something that both sets have seen their clubs achieve, regardless as to whatever else happens thereafter.

I'd love to see us win a major trophy - it really would be the absolute highlight.
100% it's the be all and end all for me.. Can't take those memories away

Wigan fans were ridiculed on Sky for saying they'd never swap the Premier League 17th place 'prize' for their FA Cup win. Made my piss boil
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Re: Football Finances - Reform

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed May 19, 2021 5:17 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 4:02 pm
boltonboris wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 12:33 pm
Why would the 'fans' want the club to win money, instead of trophies? It beggars belief.

Leicester winning the FA Cup should be everything to them.. A million times more important than finishing 4th in the league..
My mate The Blue Nose couldn't have cared less that Brum got relegated in the same season they beat Arsenal in the League Cup final. He's seen them win something and they were always going to be relegated one day anyway. I'm sure most Wigan fans feel the same about winning the FA Cup. Something that both sets have seen their clubs achieve, regardless as to whatever else happens thereafter.

I'd love to see us win a major trophy - it really would be the absolute highlight.
I suspect though that’s not a majority view especially amongst younger fans.

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Re: Football Finances - Reform

Post by TANGODANCER » Fri May 21, 2021 6:43 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 5:17 pm

I suspect though that’s not a majority view especially amongst younger fans.
Why younger fans and what are you classing as such? ? I'm sure there's no need to remind you of the behaviour of a certain section of "younger fans" that has little or nothing to do with actual football results. Amongst genuine fans dreams are made of silver, although pursuing the dream and not it's realisation is the real thrill. Take the U.E.F.A Cup ...if you will...
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Re: Football Finances - Reform

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri May 21, 2021 9:43 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Fri May 21, 2021 6:43 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 5:17 pm

I suspect though that’s not a majority view especially amongst younger fans.
Why younger fans and what are you classing as such? ? I'm sure there's no need to remind you of the behaviour of a certain section of "younger fans" that has little or nothing to do with actual football results. Amongst genuine fans dreams are made of silver, although pursuing the dream and not it's realisation is the real thrill. Take the U.E.F.A Cup ...if you will...
I mean that for a generation of younger fans the FA Cup has been seen as secondary to finishing 4th. I don’t think it’s controversial to suggest that whilst we can remember the FA cup being the absolute highlight of the football calendar that many born in last two decades or 3 decades even just won’t have the same lived experience.

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Re: Football Finances - Reform

Post by officer_dibble » Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:35 am

It’s a good idea…I always think they should boot clubs in Europe from the league cup. They like the games so they can use squad players - would be an incentive for those players to be at other clubs rather than sitting in a development squad all season. Gives others a chance of a Wembley final. Their fans don’t give a shit about it anyway.

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Re: Football Finances - Reform

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:14 am

Money and status are how you advance in the Prem. Leicester won the league once. If they want to do it again they will need money and CL football to entice increasingly good players. It used to be that domestic football was king and European competition was a chance to show off. The fact is that most clubs would now take a CL over a domestic title any day of the week and CL qualification over a domestic cup.

It's a global game and the CL is the biggest showcase. Most younger fans have grown up in that reality, with clubs resting players for cups etc. Social media is weighted towards younger voices.

There's also the fact that a lot (and I do mean a lot) of younger fans are disconnected from the reality of live football. Discussions about new signings are often as much about their FIFA ratings as anything else, so a lot of the chatter you see is related to how well their next save will go on FIFA or Football Manager. Again, especially true on social media.

You may get a different view down the pub.

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Re: Football Finances - Reform

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:33 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:14 am
Money and status are how you advance in the Prem. Leicester won the league once. If they want to do it again they will need money and CL football to entice increasingly good players. It used to be that domestic football was king and European competition was a chance to show off. The fact is that most clubs would now take a CL over a domestic title any day of the week and CL qualification over a domestic cup.

It's a global game and the CL is the biggest showcase. Most younger fans have grown up in that reality, with clubs resting players for cups etc. Social media is weighted towards younger voices.

There's also the fact that a lot (and I do mean a lot) of younger fans are disconnected from the reality of live football. Discussions about new signings are often as much about their FIFA ratings as anything else, so a lot of the chatter you see is related to how well their next save will go on FIFA or Football Manager. Again, especially true on social media.

You may get a different view down the pub.
Few points though….unless you have sustained money behind you, as one of the smaller clubs, qualifying for CL isn’t likely to be sustainable for season after season. So you get there, then what?

This is the thing it’s seen as a golden goose and it is if you pocket the cash. But if not you spend more money to compete but are unlikely to match the squad depth and quality of the ‘big six’ so eventually you won’t qualify again and then you are left with potentially an unsustainable position.

As for fifa and football manager culture I agree entirely. Football culture on social media is so alien to me. It honestly wouldn’t surprise me if most of the loudest football fan accounts had never actually stepped inside a football ground given the nonsense they seem to dream up.

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Re: Football Finances - Reform

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:57 am

There are two sides to it. A lot of traditional football culture is based on wrong assumptions about the game. Analysts introduced data-driven coaching and recruitment - it massively improved the sides that adopted it. Most of those analysts also like a good game of football manager. Geeks have taken over. This is true in all sports, not just football.

The old blokes down the pub talking about winning and losing being about "not wanting it enough" and suggesting "tactics don't matter much" are just as wrong as the young guys who only look at stats and don't watch games beyond the big teams and MotD. You need to understand everything that goes into the modern game in order to get what you are watching in a match now.

When you look at the top coaches, they have a team of data specialists around them that do the detailed tactical coaching before games. Pep will tell his players what he wants and then hand over the a guy in his late 20s or early 30s with an ipad and powerpoint to tell the players exactly how it needs to go in key areas. Those guys will have a team of young blokes behind them who spend all day going through various metrics to find the narrow margins that win you games at the top level.

It used to be said that football was 70% recruitment, 20% coaching and 10% luck. Now the first two are built on data. Managers who have failed to adapt have tended to fall out of the game or down the leagues. The margins in professional sport are so fine that clubs can't do without it. Even the older managers that people view as dinosaurs of the game tend to have a lot of respect for their analysts.

On the CL thing, fans react to what is pushed by the media. They have been sold the idea that the CL is real football and anything lower than that is tin pot....the game now reflects that media sales drive.

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Re: Football Finances - Reform

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:20 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:57 am
There are two sides to it. A lot of traditional football culture is based on wrong assumptions about the game. Analysts introduced data-driven coaching and recruitment - it massively improved the sides that adopted it. Most of those analysts also like a good game of football manager. Geeks have taken over. This is true in all sports, not just football.

The old blokes down the pub talking about winning and losing being about "not wanting it enough" and suggesting "tactics don't matter much" are just as wrong as the young guys who only look at stats and don't watch games beyond the big teams and MotD. You need to understand everything that goes into the modern game in order to get what you are watching in a match now.

When you look at the top coaches, they have a team of data specialists around them that do the detailed tactical coaching before games. Pep will tell his players what he wants and then hand over the a guy in his late 20s or early 30s with an ipad and powerpoint to tell the players exactly how it needs to go in key areas. Those guys will have a team of young blokes behind them who spend all day going through various metrics to find the narrow margins that win you games at the top level.

It used to be said that football was 70% recruitment, 20% coaching and 10% luck. Now the first two are built on data. Managers who have failed to adapt have tended to fall out of the game or down the leagues. The margins in professional sport are so fine that clubs can't do without it. Even the older managers that people view as dinosaurs of the game tend to have a lot of respect for their analysts.

On the CL thing, fans react to what is pushed by the media. They have been sold the idea that the CL is real football and anything lower than that is tin pot....the game now reflects that media sales drive.
Oh yeah I’ve spent my life being data and evidence driven in my career and absolutely think it’s important in football. My post was more about the kids who are so obsessed with the very top end and the glitz more than they are with actual football.

I do think data and tactics are important. But I still think bar the very very best teams in the world they are equalled in importance by spirit and team culture and the more intangible mental side of the game. Big Sam introduced sports psychology and I still think that’s underused. It’s noted when a player sees a sports psychologist yet in many other sports it’s the norm.

It’s a different game at club level and international level. I’d say it’s most divergent right now. You can even say European club football is considerably stronger. But I think many ignore that international football is often about transporting the best players in their peak into a different side. I think it’s a different beast. A lot more of it is mentality given these big tournament games may for many only occur once or twice in their careers. And you are away from home the build up is massive and you don’t have the comforts of your club mates round you. It’s why some great players simply haven’t been cut out for it.

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Re: Football Finances - Reform

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:31 am

I agree on the sports psychology aspect, the trouble is finding specialists that are not quacks. Psychology is a reputable field, but a lot of people in it are not. We had an issue at Bolton in that player mental health was seen as a pastoral care issue - which is absolutely should not be. Hopefully that has changed. In terms of performance psychology we were ahead of the game there.

Because it's all fine margins, we need to be good at as much as we can. The costs associated with the behind the scenes improvements are so low compared to playing costs that it is worth the investment.

I also agree on the challenges and differences at international level. It's arguably why you need to look for different skill sets in international vs club managers. Although the very best can do both.

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Re: Football Finances - Reform

Post by Prufrock » Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:40 pm

Derby the latest.

I don't wish that on anyone. Hope they get sorted soon. Awful business.
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