Football Finances - Reform

There ARE other teams(we'd have no-one to play otherwise) and here's where all-comers can discuss the wider world of football......

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boltonboris
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Re: Football Finances - Reform

Post by boltonboris » Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:35 am

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:09 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:11 am
Prufrock wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:40 pm
Derby the latest.

I don't wish that on anyone. Hope they get sorted soon. Awful business.
Derby aren’t that far off the mess we were on entering admin. Arguably worse. Sure they will be ok but their ground was sold to a separate company also owned by their owner….I mean good luck with that.
12 point deduction, bottom of the table on minus two.
With a further 9 point deduction for breaking Profit & Sustainability rules
Potentially another 4 point deduction on top of both, if the PFA have to assist with covering player wages this month
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Re: Football Finances - Reform

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:22 am

boltonboris wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:35 am
Bruce Rioja wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:09 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:11 am
Prufrock wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:40 pm
Derby the latest.

I don't wish that on anyone. Hope they get sorted soon. Awful business.
Derby aren’t that far off the mess we were on entering admin. Arguably worse. Sure they will be ok but their ground was sold to a separate company also owned by their owner….I mean good luck with that.
12 point deduction, bottom of the table on minus two.
With a further 9 point deduction for breaking Profit & Sustainability rules
Potentially another 4 point deduction on top of both, if the PFA have to assist with covering player wages this month
The 9 point thing is messy as it was agreed with now former owner. Admins aren't going to agree to it as they'll defer to new ownership (they hope). Then new owner can refuse to agree and delay it into eternity. So I'd not guarantee 9 points can be applied this season. EFL would try and force it but then down to independent panel who as we've seen don't always agree with EFL.

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Re: Football Finances - Reform

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:59 am

Derby apparently owe £29m to HMRC (I think we owed £1.5m or so) and £60m in total - they're trying to get the HMRC bit cut to a quarter. Not noted for doing deals with football clubs, HMRC, and it would likely set a precedent if they did this one. Hope they make it through.

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Re: Football Finances - Reform

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:30 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:59 am
Derby apparently owe £29m to HMRC (I think we owed £1.5m or so) and £60m in total - they're trying to get the HMRC bit cut to a quarter. Not noted for doing deals with football clubs, HMRC, and it would likely set a precedent if they did this one. Hope they make it through.
In admin aren't HMRC just another unsecured creditor and its up to the administrators to settle those as 'best they can' and indeed there is a minimum to retain FL status but not sure its up to HMRC to negotiate is it?

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Re: Football Finances - Reform

Post by Worthy4England » Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:51 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:30 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:59 am
Derby apparently owe £29m to HMRC (I think we owed £1.5m or so) and £60m in total - they're trying to get the HMRC bit cut to a quarter. Not noted for doing deals with football clubs, HMRC, and it would likely set a precedent if they did this one. Hope they make it through.
In admin aren't HMRC just another unsecured creditor and its up to the administrators to settle those as 'best they can' and indeed there is a minimum to retain FL status but not sure its up to HMRC to negotiate is it?
Think the law changed about a year back - they've moved up the pecking order...2nd preferential creditor

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Re: Football Finances - Reform

Post by Prufrock » Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:05 pm

Don't think it's for the whole tax debt though. Only those where the company collects on behalf of others e.g. PAYE, employee NI but not e.g. corp tax, employer NI.
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Re: Football Finances - Reform

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:32 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:51 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:30 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:59 am
Derby apparently owe £29m to HMRC (I think we owed £1.5m or so) and £60m in total - they're trying to get the HMRC bit cut to a quarter. Not noted for doing deals with football clubs, HMRC, and it would likely set a precedent if they did this one. Hope they make it through.
In admin aren't HMRC just another unsecured creditor and its up to the administrators to settle those as 'best they can' and indeed there is a minimum to retain FL status but not sure its up to HMRC to negotiate is it?
Think the law changed about a year back - they've moved up the pecking order...2nd preferential creditor
My understanding was they still don't get full amount owed, or close to it. Has that changed now? If so Derby might be screwed.

Worthy4England
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Re: Football Finances - Reform

Post by Worthy4England » Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:05 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:05 pm
Don't think it's for the whole tax debt though. Only those where the company collects on behalf of others e.g. PAYE, employee NI but not e.g. corp tax, employer NI.
That is correct. They owe £26.5m on PAYE, NIC and VAT...not sure how it got that large a number TBF, but their last Accounts were 2018...

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Re: Football Finances - Reform

Post by TANGODANCER » Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:26 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:57 am
There are two sides to it. A lot of traditional football culture is based on wrong assumptions about the game. Analysts introduced data-driven coaching and recruitment - it massively improved the sides that adopted it. Most of those analysts also like a good game of football manager. Geeks have taken over. This is true in all sports, not just football.

The old blokes down the pub talking about winning and losing being about "not wanting it enough" and suggesting "tactics don't matter much" are just as wrong as the young guys who only look at stats and don't watch games beyond the big teams and MotD. You need to understand everything that goes into the modern game in order to get what you are watching in a match now.

When you look at the top coaches, they have a team of data specialists around them that do the detailed tactical coaching before games. Pep will tell his players what he wants and then hand over the a guy in his late 20s or early 30s with an ipad and powerpoint to tell the players exactly how it needs to go in key areas. Those guys will have a team of young blokes behind them who spend all day going through various metrics to find the narrow margins that win you games at the top level.

It used to be said that football was 70% recruitment, 20% coaching and 10% luck. Now the first two are built on data. Managers who have failed to adapt have tended to fall out of the game or down the leagues. The margins in professional sport are so fine that clubs can't do without it. Even the older managers that people view as dinosaurs of the game tend to have a lot of respect for their analysts.

On the CL thing, fans react to what is pushed by the media. They have been sold the idea that the CL is real football and anything lower than that is tin pot....the game now reflects that media sales drive.
The old blokes down the pub talking about winning and losingAnd then you have the lady luck factor...the injury and substitution factor, and the referee factor( the amount of games lost by a single goal or bad decisions of either,take Bolton Wanderers as an example) and the exception to the rule factor (Manchester City 0 after a dazzling display of superiority, Bolton Wanderers 1...after a last minute penalty).

Just mentioning a few........ :D
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