Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

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Re: Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

Post by Peter Thompson » Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:00 pm

So basically DSB - you agree with what I've said....as opposed to BWFCI who thinks that every team has a 50 yard gap between midfield & attack and they all only have 3 or 4 players who ever venture over the half way line, and that its not Parkinson's negative / defensive tactics in regards to not getting players forward quicker when we are in possession, getting closer to the front men and having passing options centrally and out wide (other than a 50 yard hoof) - according to BWFCI its also not about getting midfielders & wingbacks forward supporting the front two, giving them options - its because we don't have Messi & Suarez and its Madine & ALF's fault for not being of a good enough quality to play on their own and beat 4 or 5 players when they get the ball and then smash the ball into the net on a regular basis

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Re: Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

Post by Worthy4England » Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:05 pm

We have been saying for a while (and it's not a criticism of Madine) that there has to be another "out ball" that doesn't involve punting it at Madine's heed.

All the "creativity" in the world ain't going to do owt with it when it comes off at right-angles.

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Re: Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:12 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:51 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:42 pm
Or put Armstrong up front instead of ALF to add some pace, and the ability to run the channels.

We lack outlets. We did last season. Ameobi and Madine were our only ones.

For me we are setup correctly (I don't like 3 at the back but I see little other realistic option with what we've got available personally). The problem is we don't currently have anyone who you can give the ball to, up front or elsewhere who can make things happen on their own. Put a circa 2000 Michael Rickets into this side and we'd be more than alright. As it stands we have to create things more intricately and simply aren't really up to it.

I'd like to see Armstrong get a run and see if his pace helps.
I feel for ALF - he's been asked to a small percentage of a small percentage: (1) accurate long balls to Madine which (2) Madine manages to flick on or knock down. But he shouldn't be guaranteed a place, and he may be on a five-game probation before Parky considers other options. Arma is rapid and could offer an option over the top – which would in turn force the defence back and thus give us more space to play in, if we decide to bother.

There were times on Saturday when you could have thrown a quilt over Gaz and ALF and their nearest colleague was 50 yards away. We can't construct an attack like that, and we didn't.

I understand what you mean about giving the ball to someone who can make things happen; certainly there was more optimism when Morais ran at Meredith than at any other time. But if we haven't got such matchwinners – and we haven't got many, if any - we could also pass and move. The ball moves quicker than any player, and it doesn't always have to be hoisted to do so.

Quick word for Arma, by the way - he got more minutes but no decent service, only yet more hopeless wafted balls (not even penetrative long balls, just the sort of floated efforts you do in the park for Headers & Volleys). But like Cullen he was fearless and got stuck in. Play to his strengths and we could have a good 'un.

Pass and move. Maybe when we get better wingbacks, better midfield options and more nimble forwards. We have what we've got. We aren't significantly if any stronger than last season. Last season we were effective a league lower by being good defensively, tough to score against and efficient at set pieces. The idea that with a similar squad we will suddenly become a proficient pass and move team a league higher, is, with all due respect, pie in the sky.

Our main strength is playing off Madine. When we have Morais, Ameobi and Vela fit there will be more effective support. As it stands I think a point at Millwall is a good result and we set up to be determined to try and get that however we could.

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Re: Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

Post by Worthy4England » Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:18 pm

Our main strength is playing off Madine, because even when he's fcking injured, they still try and play off Madine - see last year for details. Punting at Alf's head...

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Re: Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:30 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:18 pm
Our main strength is playing off Madine, because even when he's fcking injured, they still try and play off Madine - see last year for details. Punting at Alf's head...
Cos that's what we've got. We don't have the players to pass through teams midfields. Look at the three Leeds had behind Wood. Hernandez, Roofe, other guy with silly haircut. We don't have that quality. You need that if you want to be effective doing more than going direct.

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Re: Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

Post by Worthy4England » Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:00 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:30 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:18 pm
Our main strength is playing off Madine, because even when he's fcking injured, they still try and play off Madine - see last year for details. Punting at Alf's head...
Cos that's what we've got. We don't have the players to pass through teams midfields. Look at the three Leeds had behind Wood. Hernandez, Roofe, other guy with silly haircut. We don't have that quality. You need that if you want to be effective doing more than going direct.
For me, it's about having the option. Occasionally. Our main ball can still be towards Madine.

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Re: Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

Post by bristol_Wanderer3 » Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:01 pm

Firstly thanks for the thorough and well produced report DSB.

Some thoughts / questions / observations:

Personally I think it will be after the two week international break at the end of August before we are anywhere near our best. Injuries to Little, Morais, Vela, Ameobi and Wheater have massively disrupted our pre-season and early season planning. The midfield area seems like it needs significant work both defensively and offensively, but we have games every 3-4 days until after the Hull game, so it is hard to do anything but minor tweaking till Parky and his team can do some work on the training ground. At least the defensive area and right wing back area feels a lot more sorted out following Saturday's game. We have a chance of grinding out a few results despite being dysfunctional in our attacking play.

For the Birmingham game, I would like to see Buckley in for ALF, and for us to play a 3-5-1-1 formation. Buckley will be fresh and would add pace and energy to the attacking areas. Tell Buckley to find space between their defence and midfield, pick up knock downs from Madine, or second balls, not to mention to be available to receive passes from our midfield and run at them. At least it gives us another method to attack them rather than predictably hit it long to Madine EVERY time, with ALF being close to redundant. ALF / Armstrong could do damage from the bench later in the game.

It is still slughtly disturbing that Cullen is having to do a lot of the defensive work in midfield. It doesn't look like he is naturally comfortable doing that role. Maybe Derik should be given a go in the defensive midfield role?? We could then free up Cullen and one of Karcan/Pratley to do their work a little further up the pitch. Right now it feels like the three midfielders are too similar and want to work in the same areas.

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Re: Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:05 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:00 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:30 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:18 pm
Our main strength is playing off Madine, because even when he's fcking injured, they still try and play off Madine - see last year for details. Punting at Alf's head...
Cos that's what we've got. We don't have the players to pass through teams midfields. Look at the three Leeds had behind Wood. Hernandez, Roofe, other guy with silly haircut. We don't have that quality. You need that if you want to be effective doing more than going direct.
For me, it's about having the option. Occasionally. Our main ball can still be towards Madine.
Indeed. And that option is Ameobi. Bad luck that he got injured.

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Re: Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

Post by Worthy4England » Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:12 pm

No. No. No. No. just No and did I mention No?

We shouldn't only play through the midfield when Ameobi is on the pitch. That's as stupid as playing it up to Madine 100% of the time (we're not quite 100% :-) ).

It is not "unreasonable" to use Morais. It's not "unreasonable" to use any of our other midfielders.

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Re: Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

Post by Peter Thompson » Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:24 pm

Is it also unreasonable to expect the midfielders to get further up the pitch to support the front two when we have the ball, and also the wing backs (I'm sure that's why you have wing backs) - when we have the ball apart from the 3 CB's and perhaps 1 holding midfielder the rest of the team should be getting forward to give both the midfield & forwards passing options

Again I'm sure that's why teams have a holding midfielder, to allow others to get further forward....

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Re: Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:15 pm

Peter Thompson wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:24 pm
Is it also unreasonable to expect the midfielders to get further up the pitch to support the front two when we have the ball, and also the wing backs (I'm sure that's why you have wing backs) - when we have the ball apart from the 3 CB's and perhaps 1 holding midfielder the rest of the team should be getting forward to give both the midfield & forwards passing options

Again I'm sure that's why teams have a holding midfielder, to allow others to get further forward....
Again, it comes down to the ability you've got. Push 3 or 4 forwards, lose the ball and we could be in trouble. Our back three and Cullen aren't strong enough if teams break on us with pace. I'd also question how pushing Pratley, Taylor and Karacan on is significantly going to increase our chances.

I entirely understand what people are saying. But I totally think it's a case of waiting for players to be fit again and return. We are a much better side with Vela in it, because his running power drags us up the pitch.

We are caught between two stools. I personally would like to see us play one up front but Madine is the only option and on his own in this league isn't good enough. So mostly we need a way of playing 2. Just about every team in this league has more quality than we do. Committing numbers forward and opening the game up is pretty much suicide. There is a balance to be struck. Against Leeds we got it wrong. But equally their third goal came from a huge void in midfield. Leave holes and teams will hurt us at this level. We've also seen that Karacan and Cullen on their own will seriously struggle and Buckley will not offer enough to help them out.

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Re: Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

Post by Worthy4England » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:06 pm

You seem to be suggesting this is an either/or. It's not.

It won't take these better sides in the Championship long to work out if we only have one option and that's to punt it to Madine.

I'm not suggesting we push 3 or 4 forwards in some bizarre 4-2-4. I'm suggesting that a little more OCCASIONALLY than current, we don't just punt it aimlessly at Madine.

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Re: Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:12 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:06 pm
You seem to be suggesting this is an either/or. It's not.

It won't take these better sides in the Championship long to work out if we only have one option and that's to punt it to Madine.

I'm not suggesting we push 3 or 4 forwards in some bizarre 4-2-4. I'm suggesting that a little more OCCASIONALLY than current, we don't just punt it aimlessly at Madine.
I know. And when we don't do that we will pass sideways and backwards, generally. Nobody is capable of taking the ball and being progressive. Not until, Morais is fit or Ameobi. Unless we find a way to got Buckley in. Which I struggle with.

I think our best bet is to use Armstrong in the channels. A different option to Madine. ALF works hard but offers nowt in way of an outlet.

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Re: Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

Post by irie Cee Bee » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:53 am

From what I saw, we seem to be afraid to attack through our midfield. Most of the time when we had possession in midfield, we went backwards, sideways, backward then punted inaccurately towards Madine. Not sure how we will win a game playing like that. I guess we are depending on set plays. ALF and Madine are miles away from the midfield and have no chance. The same when Armstrong came on. Is it that PP wants ALF / Armstrong to drop deep to collect the ball? If so, thats not their game. They should be running unto through balls off the shoulders of the Center Backs.

Seems like we have decided to scrap it out until Ameobi returns since he holds up the ball well. Until then, Safety first?

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Re: Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:56 am

irie Cee Bee wrote:
Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:53 am
From what I saw, we seem to be afraid to attack through our midfield. Most of the time when we had possession in midfield, we went backwards, sideways, backward then punted inaccurately towards Madine. Not sure how we will win a game playing like that. I guess we are depending on set plays. ALF and Madine are miles away from the midfield and have no chance. The same when Armstrong came on. Is it that PP wants ALF / Armstrong to drop deep to collect the ball? If so, thats not their game. They should be running unto through balls off the shoulders of the Center Backs.

Seems like we have decided to scrap it out until Ameobi returns since he holds up the ball well. Until then, Safety first?
Because we have a limited midfield? We're not packing Iniesta and Xavi in their pomp. Cullen is decent. Karacan works hard. Pratley is, well, Pratley. But no chance the are suddenly going to be popping weighted through balls for our strikers any time soon.

When we have the ball in midfield, they need outlets. Andy Taylor and Little aren't exactly flying options to get us up the pitch. When we pass the ball it goes to Taylor who turns round and gives it back to a CB. What we lack is wing backs who are comfortable running at teams and offering an outlet. Until Morais is fit that is.

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Re: Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:28 am

You're confusing me, BWFCi, because earlier on this very thread you said this:
BWFC_Insane wrote:I think Taylor and Derik would use the ball from the back better and provide a little more balance either side of Beevers. Both are a bit quicker by CB standards. Millwall will be physical I guess, but think we'd cope.

Dervite hasn't done much wrong, but for me his only real "out ball" is chipping cross field to Madine. Away from home that may squander more possession than is ideal.

Additionally we have to find a way to get proper wingbacks in the side. (…) Wing backs with pace to get up and down. Taylor is ok when you've got a more attacking right wing back. If Darby plays there and Taylor at left back that is too.....back 5. And the midfield are left without outlet and without support from the wing backs all too often. (…) I just want to have centre halves on each side more comfortable on the ball. And also more mobile. Plus I strongly think in this league we need a proper outlet out wide especially away from home.
You seem to want ball-playing centre-backs, and outlets out wide, yet you disagree with the notion of "pass and move", which seems to me the entire point of having ball-playing centre-backs and willing wide outlets.

Maybe it's a question of terminology. You seem to think we're incapable of playing "pass and move" as if it's Fermat's Last Theorem. I'm not asking for intricate Arsenalesque triangles and gasping applause from opposition fans. I'm just asking for a system in which players want the ball and seek to build with it by passing diagonally forward 10/15 yards to a mate in a better position.

Let's walk through a typical situation, like Bobby Robson used to with Barcelona. Centre-back Burke finds wing-back Morais just inside our half; Morais plays give-and-go with holder Cullen, who sends him up the line; another midfielder (could be Karacan, could be Buckley) is in support for one option, while ALF/Arma comes toward Morais for another and Madine gets between the posts for a third. It's neither rocket surgery nor brain science. We hardly ever try it, and I think it's down to coaching: presumably an overcautious paralysis in the central midfielders, because I can't imagine a managerial diktat that nobody can pass forwards except the big lumps at the back.

To be clear, I don't mind passing sideways and backwards to retain possession if there's no such pass on - keep circulating the ball until a gap appears. But the gap appears by people finding space, preferably but (not necessarily) at speed while the oppo is out of shape. At the minute, we circulate it round the back five (and the odd midfielder dropping deep) then a big-ass centre-back clonks it forward and we turn over possession.

I knew this was a habit last season, but I couldn't check have the stats because they weren't covered in the third tier. Now we've moved up, it's analysable, and it's showing how often we're gifting the opponents the ball. Last season we could do that relatively comfortable in the knowledge that they'd either gormlessly bang it back to Wheevers or we'd snuffle it out of them in midfield. Now we have to be cleverer, more subtle. It's hard enough in this division without shooting ourselves in the foot.

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Re: Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

Post by Prufrock » Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:10 am

As others have said, there's middle ground between 2009 vintage Barca and nice person it at Nadine's head for 90. The reason we look laboured is, drumroll please, a lack of width up the pitch. Even a workaday midfielder well short of Modric level spacial awareness is capable of finding a square/diagonal ball wide once he's won it. Our wingbacks play like full backs, and there's no other width. It's no surprise they can't keep it.
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Re: Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:21 am

Prufrock wrote:
Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:10 am
As others have said, there's middle ground between 2009 vintage Barca and tw*t it at Nadine's head for 90. The reason we look laboured is, drumroll please, a lack of width up the pitch. Even a workaday midfielder well short of Modric level spacial awareness is capable of finding a square/diagonal ball wide once he's won it. Our wingbacks play like full backs, and there's no other width. It's no surprise they can't keep it.
Yep. That middle ground's fine by me. Coyle got a lot wrong, particularly at the back (and Parky gets a lot right, particularly at the back) but for his first 12 months or so I was very happy with our combination of neat passing play and direct forward balls – the Mark Davies and Kevin Davies, if you like. Against Leeds, Madine won far more than his fair share of longer balls, and it was useful. At Millwall, he was isolated and ineffective, and therefore so were we.

And bang on about the wingbacks. Early in the game, Little went past his man by the away dugout, looked up and saw nowt but space and a tiny little Madine in the distance; Pratley and Karacan were watching on from the defensive edge of the centre circle. Poor old Little basically had to stop, let the Millwallers funnel back past him, and lay it back to Dervite. Bet you can't guess what he did with it.

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Re: Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

Post by Prufrock » Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:29 am

Oh, is it: began a period of probing controlled possession?
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Re: Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

Post by Peter Thompson » Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:46 am

And this has to do with Parkinson's coaching / tactics....he must be telling the players to play this way

If he (Parkinson) wanted the midfield, and wing backs to get forward quicker and support the front two when we have the ball then he would be coaching this in pre season & every week in training, and giving them instructions before the game and from the touchline.

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