Zeros and Villans: Aston Villa (A) 30/9/17

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Re: Zeros and Villans: Aston Villa (A) 30/9/17

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:52 pm

Peter Thompson wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:58 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:45 pm
PT at virtually no point this season has our major issue been Madine failing to take a clear chance.

We've played Armstrong and ALF during the period too. Neither have scored either.

The issue is simply one of having once again to put a scratch side together in a very difficult league. We are looking more solid now which is good. The quality going forward will be better with Vela and Ameobi back fit and firing. If you want to say Madine is not a championship striker I'd probably agree. But he's better by a mile than anyone else we've got. He has actually managed to get most of his efforts on target this season. Our fundamental issue is that throughout the side we lack goalscorers. Big time. Our midfield might scrape 5 between them all season. That makes it impossible. Vela is our only midfield player capable of scoring.
1. OK for the stats people - would it be possible to provide a comparison between minutes on the pitch & goals scored, because I'm sure that Madine has had far more minutes on the pitch than the other 2, and that his minutes on the pitch per goals scored will be less than the other two (Far less in the case of ALF)

2. BWFCI - I really appreciate & understand your continued blind defence of all things BWFC, but you really do need to open your eyes, raise your head from under the sand....does Madine getting most of his chances on target mean that they trickled through to the keeper or that the opposition keepers have made worldly saves from Madine.

I'm not going to continue this as its been done to death - but most know that Madine is NOT a goal scorer, and regardless of how well we play is NOT going to score enough goals to save us from relegation this season - money where your mouth is I'll bet £100 (to a charity of your choice that Madine - as our No1 centre forward with 35 games to go, doesn't score 12 goals this season)

Outside the box his play is improving, but inside the box he's a fecking stump...
In DSB's thread he had a stat that showed none of our strikers scored enough goals per minute. But Madine has the best ratio.

This season, Madine has had a few off the line, spun at hit one from 30 yards against Brentford that the keeper saved and hit the post.

The problem is not Madine missing chance after chance. We aren't creating enough. All three strikers have been tried and all struggled. Without Madine we have very little up front. Le Fondre offers absolutely nowt and Armstrong hasn't been effective yet. Of course we need a better striker. Do you know any available to sign happy to take the wage structure Ken has in place? If you do message Lee Anderson. Because short of that I don't see what we can change.

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Re: Zeros and Villans: Aston Villa (A) 30/9/17

Post by bristol_Wanderer3 » Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:03 pm

Madine for sure has his limitations, but so do many strikers in this league. Cardiff turned down £10m for Zohore in the summer and he only got his 2nd and 3rd goals of the season against Leeds on Tuesday. They are top of the league. Hugill has 2 in 10, and was linked with an £8m in the summer. Preston are 5th.

Fact is when you play a big target man, it as much about his all round game, and ability to bring attacking midfielders into the game, as it is about his goals. We have scored four goals all season, and one of those was a world class free kick, and another a penalty. Madine has forced the opposition keeper to save more than anyone else, and has hit the woodwork at least once, had a couple cleared off the line as well as his two goals, our only two goals from open play. Perhaps the blame for our lack of goals lies elsewhere?

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Re: Zeros and Villans: Aston Villa (A) 30/9/17

Post by Peter Thompson » Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:18 pm

bristol_Wanderer3 wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:03 pm
Madine for sure has his limitations, but so do many strikers in this league. Cardiff turned down £10m for Zohore in the summer and he only got his 2nd and 3rd goals of the season against Leeds on Tuesday. They are top of the league. Hugill has 2 in 10, and was linked with an £8m in the summer. Preston are 5th.

Fact is when you play a big target man, it as much about his all round game, and ability to bring attacking midfielders into the game, as it is about his goals. We have scored four goals all season, and one of those was a world class free kick, and another a penalty. Madine has forced the opposition keeper to save more than anyone else, and has hit the woodwork at least once, had a couple cleared off the line as well as his two goals, our only two goals from open play. Perhaps the blame for our lack of goals lies elsewhere?
So Madine has scored 2 in 11 despite being our main centre forward.....and having far more chances & far more minutes on the pitch than any other BWFC striker.

Like I said he's improved his play outside the box, but if he's our main goal scoring option then we are completely fcuked.

He's a decent player but nowhere near a championship level quality centre forward - he really isn't a goal scorer, he lacks composure, ability & technique in the box (just IMO)

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Re: Zeros and Villans: Aston Villa (A) 30/9/17

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:27 pm

Peter Thompson wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:18 pm
bristol_Wanderer3 wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:03 pm
Madine for sure has his limitations, but so do many strikers in this league. Cardiff turned down £10m for Zohore in the summer and he only got his 2nd and 3rd goals of the season against Leeds on Tuesday. They are top of the league. Hugill has 2 in 10, and was linked with an £8m in the summer. Preston are 5th.

Fact is when you play a big target man, it as much about his all round game, and ability to bring attacking midfielders into the game, as it is about his goals. We have scored four goals all season, and one of those was a world class free kick, and another a penalty. Madine has forced the opposition keeper to save more than anyone else, and has hit the woodwork at least once, had a couple cleared off the line as well as his two goals, our only two goals from open play. Perhaps the blame for our lack of goals lies elsewhere?
So Madine has scored 2 in 11 despite being our main centre forward.....and having far more chances & far more minutes on the pitch than any other BWFC striker.

Like I said he's improved his play outside the box, but if he's our main goal scoring option then we are completely fcuked.

He's a decent player but nowhere near a championship level quality centre forward - he really isn't a goal scorer, he lacks composure, ability & technique in the box (just IMO)
Don't think anyone is disagreeing that he isn't ever going to be a regular goalscorer. We are just pointing out that we aren't struggling because he's missing loads of chances. And also pointing out that other sides don't have necessarily a striker banging loads in. Throughout the side we need more goals. Henry, Karacan, Pratley, Ameobi...I think between them they would struggle to get 5 all season. In fact I'd not bet on as many as that if you asked me to.

That's the problem. Last year we relied on some set pieces and Vela and Madine getting ten each. Set pieces have dried up and Vela is injured....

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Re: Zeros and Villans: Aston Villa (A) 30/9/17

Post by DJBlu » Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:34 pm

I'd like to see ALF and Madine from the start like we did against Leeds as I think Jem is like a headless chicken who always has his back to goal looking for the pass back into defence.

PP doesn't know what his is strongest side and is still tinkering. We'll see another formation and different players in the next game too.

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Re: Zeros and Villans: Aston Villa (A) 30/9/17

Post by Peter Thompson » Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:36 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:27 pm
Peter Thompson wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:18 pm
bristol_Wanderer3 wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:03 pm
Madine for sure has his limitations, but so do many strikers in this league. Cardiff turned down £10m for Zohore in the summer and he only got his 2nd and 3rd goals of the season against Leeds on Tuesday. They are top of the league. Hugill has 2 in 10, and was linked with an £8m in the summer. Preston are 5th.

Fact is when you play a big target man, it as much about his all round game, and ability to bring attacking midfielders into the game, as it is about his goals. We have scored four goals all season, and one of those was a world class free kick, and another a penalty. Madine has forced the opposition keeper to save more than anyone else, and has hit the woodwork at least once, had a couple cleared off the line as well as his two goals, our only two goals from open play. Perhaps the blame for our lack of goals lies elsewhere?
So Madine has scored 2 in 11 despite being our main centre forward.....and having far more chances & far more minutes on the pitch than any other BWFC striker.

Like I said he's improved his play outside the box, but if he's our main goal scoring option then we are completely fcuked.

He's a decent player but nowhere near a championship level quality centre forward - he really isn't a goal scorer, he lacks composure, ability & technique in the box (just IMO)
Don't think anyone is disagreeing that he isn't ever going to be a regular goalscorer. We are just pointing out that we aren't struggling because he's missing loads of chances. And also pointing out that other sides don't have necessarily a striker banging loads in. Throughout the side we need more goals. Henry, Karacan, Pratley, Ameobi...I think between them they would struggle to get 5 all season. In fact I'd not bet on as many as that if you asked me to.

That's the problem. Last year we relied on some set pieces and Vela and Madine getting ten each. Set pieces have dried up and Vela is injured....
You've basically endorsed everything I've been saying about Parkinson being a poor tactician and manager

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Re: Zeros and Villans: Aston Villa (A) 30/9/17

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:39 pm

I see the point of playing ALF, but if we play two up top we have to either play a back three (and thus no wingers) or a 4-4-2. In either of those instances we don't get the balance right between defensive solidity and midfield creativity.

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Re: Zeros and Villans: Aston Villa (A) 30/9/17

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:54 pm

Peter Thompson wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:36 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:27 pm
Peter Thompson wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:18 pm
bristol_Wanderer3 wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:03 pm
Madine for sure has his limitations, but so do many strikers in this league. Cardiff turned down £10m for Zohore in the summer and he only got his 2nd and 3rd goals of the season against Leeds on Tuesday. They are top of the league. Hugill has 2 in 10, and was linked with an £8m in the summer. Preston are 5th.

Fact is when you play a big target man, it as much about his all round game, and ability to bring attacking midfielders into the game, as it is about his goals. We have scored four goals all season, and one of those was a world class free kick, and another a penalty. Madine has forced the opposition keeper to save more than anyone else, and has hit the woodwork at least once, had a couple cleared off the line as well as his two goals, our only two goals from open play. Perhaps the blame for our lack of goals lies elsewhere?
So Madine has scored 2 in 11 despite being our main centre forward.....and having far more chances & far more minutes on the pitch than any other BWFC striker.

Like I said he's improved his play outside the box, but if he's our main goal scoring option then we are completely fcuked.

He's a decent player but nowhere near a championship level quality centre forward - he really isn't a goal scorer, he lacks composure, ability & technique in the box (just IMO)
Don't think anyone is disagreeing that he isn't ever going to be a regular goalscorer. We are just pointing out that we aren't struggling because he's missing loads of chances. And also pointing out that other sides don't have necessarily a striker banging loads in. Throughout the side we need more goals. Henry, Karacan, Pratley, Ameobi...I think between them they would struggle to get 5 all season. In fact I'd not bet on as many as that if you asked me to.

That's the problem. Last year we relied on some set pieces and Vela and Madine getting ten each. Set pieces have dried up and Vela is injured....
You've basically endorsed everything I've been saying about Parkinson being a poor tactician and manager
It's nowt to do with tactics, we don't have the quality to hurt teams in this league.

Go back to last season, look at some of the goals we scored with Clough and Ameobi playing off Madine. We scored some great goals. Because for that league we had attacking quality. When we lost that it got harder.

This season there is a huge step up, but we haven't been able to improve those areas enough.

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Re: Zeros and Villans: Aston Villa (A) 30/9/17

Post by bristol_Wanderer3 » Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:20 pm

Peter Thompson wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:18 pm
bristol_Wanderer3 wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:03 pm
Madine for sure has his limitations, but so do many strikers in this league. Cardiff turned down £10m for Zohore in the summer and he only got his 2nd and 3rd goals of the season against Leeds on Tuesday. They are top of the league. Hugill has 2 in 10, and was linked with an £8m in the summer. Preston are 5th.

Fact is when you play a big target man, it as much about his all round game, and ability to bring attacking midfielders into the game, as it is about his goals. We have scored four goals all season, and one of those was a world class free kick, and another a penalty. Madine has forced the opposition keeper to save more than anyone else, and has hit the woodwork at least once, had a couple cleared off the line as well as his two goals, our only two goals from open play. Perhaps the blame for our lack of goals lies elsewhere?
So Madine has scored 2 in 11 despite being our main centre forward.....and having far more chances & far more minutes on the pitch than any other BWFC striker.

Like I said he's improved his play outside the box, but if he's our main goal scoring option then we are completely fcuked.

He's a decent player but nowhere near a championship level quality centre forward - he really isn't a goal scorer, he lacks composure, ability & technique in the box (just IMO)
We might well be completely fcuked :). He is definitely our best striker. That does not necessarily mean he has to be the main goalscoring option. In an ideal world the three behind him in a 4-2-3-1 would all score a decent amount of goals, similar to how Clough, Vela and Ameobi did last season. In a 3-5-2 his partner and one or two of the midfielders should be creating/scoring. Vela/ALF did this last season.

The problem is good strikers cost decent amounts of money and we haven't had any and probably don't have any. So we somehow have to concoct goals from this squad.

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Re: Zeros and Villans: Aston Villa (A) 30/9/17

Post by Harry Genshaw » Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:25 pm

Madine is undoubtedly the best option if we're playing a direct game but in a successful side at a lower level he struggled to get in double figures.

Perhaps style needs to change as well? Alf up.top and Armstrong in the hole or wide in a 4-5-1
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Re: Zeros and Villans: Aston Villa (A) 30/9/17

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:51 pm

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:25 pm
Madine is undoubtedly the best option if we're playing a direct game but in a successful side at a lower level he struggled to get in double figures.

Perhaps style needs to change as well? Alf up.top and Armstrong in the hole or wide in a 4-5-1
ALF would have to actually do something outside the box in that case. Which would break the habit of a lifetime for him. Little lad who played up front for Brentford showed how to lead the line. ALF isn't in the same league.

There is a reason players like ALF end up at Bolton. There isn't a place for them in the game anymore. You have to do more than just be sharp in the box now. Teams can't carry that type anymore.

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Re: Zeros and Villans: Aston Villa (A) 30/9/17

Post by Harry Genshaw » Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:54 pm

Alf works his socks off but generally he's chasing long high balls he's no hope of winning. If we're less direct and he's closing centre backs down quickly it could work. I dunno, but it's a change of approach and worth a go?
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Re: Zeros and Villans: Aston Villa (A) 30/9/17

Post by irie Cee Bee » Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:48 am

No points again but progress. Glad to see that the posters here are not slaughtering the midfield. We no longer looked soft so midfield fixed. Henry, Pratley and Karacan competed strongly and the defense solid, but for the Beevers going to ground after being bamboozeled, in an area where defenders are always told to stay on their feet, and for the one and one against Howard just before.

We can now move the ball forward with Ameobi back. So now the focus is on the forward line. We have no one who seems to be able to score at this level. How do we fix this? Maybe when Vela returns, we play Armstrong as a lone striker, play the ball on the ground and utlilise his pace to get behind the defenders and hope he can finish. Teams now know how to play Madine.

Time to give them something different to worry about.

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Re: Zeros and Villans: Aston Villa (A) 30/9/17

Post by Abdoulaye's Twin » Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:46 am

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:39 pm
I see the point of playing ALF, but if we play two up top we have to either play a back three (and thus no wingers) or a 4-4-2. In either of those instances we don't get the balance right between defensive solidity and midfield creativity.
The other thing with ALF is I think he's the type that needs to be playing week in week out. He needs to play his way into form as opposed to a super sub type who just needs 5 minutes to get in on the action. Hopefully we can get a settled side when Vela is back as I'm sure that would help, regardless of ALF in the 11 or not.

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Re: Zeros and Villans: Aston Villa (A) 30/9/17

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:43 am

Abdoulaye's Twin wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:46 am
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:39 pm
I see the point of playing ALF, but if we play two up top we have to either play a back three (and thus no wingers) or a 4-4-2. In either of those instances we don't get the balance right between defensive solidity and midfield creativity.
The other thing with ALF is I think he's the type that needs to be playing week in week out. He needs to play his way into form as opposed to a super sub type who just needs 5 minutes to get in on the action. Hopefully we can get a settled side when Vela is back as I'm sure that would help, regardless of ALF in the 11 or not.
I get your point, but hasn't his career been built off his time at Reading where he was often used as a 'super sub'?

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Re: Zeros and Villans: Aston Villa (A) 30/9/17

Post by LeverEnd » Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:53 am

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:54 pm
Alf works his socks off but generally he's chasing long high balls he's no hope of winning. If we're less direct and he's closing centre backs down quickly it could work. I dunno, but it's a change of approach and worth a go?
ALFs all round play was great in his first spell, some of his interplay with Clough. I think he could link with Ameobi. It's worth a try at least, but I can't see him doing well under Parkinson, never seemed a good fit.
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Re: Zeros and Villans: Aston Villa (A) 30/9/17

Post by Tombwfc » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:20 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:51 pm
Harry Genshaw wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:25 pm
Madine is undoubtedly the best option if we're playing a direct game but in a successful side at a lower level he struggled to get in double figures.

Perhaps style needs to change as well? Alf up.top and Armstrong in the hole or wide in a 4-5-1
ALF would have to actually do something outside the box in that case. Which would break the habit of a lifetime for him. Little lad who played up front for Brentford showed how to lead the line. ALF isn't in the same league.

There is a reason players like ALF end up at Bolton. There isn't a place for them in the game anymore. You have to do more than just be sharp in the box now. Teams can't carry that type anymore.
I dunno, Javier Hernandez seems to be having a nice enough career.

I'd also like to see ALF given a chance up front with players in behind. If we only create a decent chance once every two or three games, might as well have it fall to the guy who might stick it in the net. I also bet he's scored as many goals from crosses for us as Madine has.

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Re: Zeros and Villans: Aston Villa (A) 30/9/17

Post by Abdoulaye's Twin » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:24 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:43 am
Abdoulaye's Twin wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:46 am
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:39 pm
I see the point of playing ALF, but if we play two up top we have to either play a back three (and thus no wingers) or a 4-4-2. In either of those instances we don't get the balance right between defensive solidity and midfield creativity.
The other thing with ALF is I think he's the type that needs to be playing week in week out. He needs to play his way into form as opposed to a super sub type who just needs 5 minutes to get in on the action. Hopefully we can get a settled side when Vela is back as I'm sure that would help, regardless of ALF in the 11 or not.
I get your point, but hasn't his career been built off his time at Reading where he was often used as a 'super sub'?
I look at his recent spells with us and Wigan/Wolves. 2 of his 3 spells with us he was a regular and generally scored/did the business etc. The other spell (this season) he's not had a run and I don't believe he got much of a run at the other 2 clubs with similar results. Given our lump it style he's not going to make an impact unless we can find a way to play 2 up. Maybe once Vela is back with Ameobi we could play more to his strengths.

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Re: Zeros and Villans: Aston Villa (A) 30/9/17

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:01 am

Abdoulaye's Twin wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:24 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:43 am
Abdoulaye's Twin wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:46 am
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:39 pm
I see the point of playing ALF, but if we play two up top we have to either play a back three (and thus no wingers) or a 4-4-2. In either of those instances we don't get the balance right between defensive solidity and midfield creativity.
The other thing with ALF is I think he's the type that needs to be playing week in week out. He needs to play his way into form as opposed to a super sub type who just needs 5 minutes to get in on the action. Hopefully we can get a settled side when Vela is back as I'm sure that would help, regardless of ALF in the 11 or not.
I get your point, but hasn't his career been built off his time at Reading where he was often used as a 'super sub'?
I look at his recent spells with us and Wigan/Wolves. 2 of his 3 spells with us he was a regular and generally scored/did the business etc. The other spell (this season) he's not had a run and I don't believe he got much of a run at the other 2 clubs with similar results. Given our lump it style he's not going to make an impact unless we can find a way to play 2 up. Maybe once Vela is back with Ameobi we could play more to his strengths.
Wasn't he a failure at Wigan? Certainly don't think he scored much. Their fans don't have a good thing to say about him.

His goal scoring has definitely tailed off since his first spell with us. I'm not sure that he's the answer for us. Teams that aren't going to dominate the ball need someone to make an impact up front. ALF works hard but makes so little impact that you are totally reliant on him scoring to affect the game. That's fine if you're creating chances for strikers. ALF is a no brainer then. But I don't think we are there.

As you say with players back it may change things there. Given we cannot likely bring in the striker we need we must find a way to make Madine, AlF and Armstrong work.

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Re: Zeros and Villans: Aston Villa (A) 30/9/17

Post by Abdoulaye's Twin » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:15 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:01 am
Wasn't he a failure at Wigan? Certainly don't think he scored much. Their fans don't have a good thing to say about him.
That was my point. I don't think he go much in the way of a run at either Wigan or Wolves. I think he takes a while to get going, and like you I'm not convinced he's the answer, but if we can give him a run of games we might just get enough goals from him to justify it. As hard working as Madine is we're not likely to score any and I'm hoping more solidity in midfield and Vela/Ameobi back we can get players in the box.

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