Scary movie; The race to the bottom; Sunderland v Bolton 31/10/2017

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Re: Scary movie; The race to the bottom; Sunderland v Bolton 31/10/2017

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:49 pm

It was a race to the bottom and by gaining just the draw from it we won the race. Instead of 22nd we remain 24th. I see absolutely no reason to believe this will change anytime soon. I also don't get why 'stability' and keeping Parkinson are any kind of priority - we should be like Sheffield United hunting for a gem of a manager from the lower divisions/tiers.
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Re: Scary movie; The race to the bottom; Sunderland v Bolton 31/10/2017

Post by Armchair Wanderer » Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:12 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:49 pm
It was a race to the bottom and by gaining just the draw from it we won the race. Instead of 22nd we remain 24th. I see absolutely no reason to believe this will change anytime soon. I also don't get why 'stability' and keeping Parkinson are any kind of priority - we should be like Sheffield United hunting for a gem of a manager from the lower divisions/tiers.
That's what happened with PP (lower divisions/tiers). I'm sure he'll get sacked at some point if things don't change, hopefully, they will. However, there's no point at all in sacking him once fate is nailed on because he's not bad in League 1. If sacking is an option at all he should have gone before now imho.

On the Sheffield United comparison, they were in League 1 for a long time, it's going well for them now but they've been through a lot of rubbish. Just spoke to a Leeds supporter the other day, didn't realise they were in that league (one) for so long too. I'm not sure we should be expecting to be brilliant anytime soon if these other clubs have troubles turning things around.
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Re: Scary movie; The race to the bottom; Sunderland v Bolton 31/10/2017

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:39 pm

Armchair Wanderer wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:12 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:49 pm
It was a race to the bottom and by gaining just the draw from it we won the race. Instead of 22nd we remain 24th. I see absolutely no reason to believe this will change anytime soon. I also don't get why 'stability' and keeping Parkinson are any kind of priority - we should be like Sheffield United hunting for a gem of a manager from the lower divisions/tiers.
That's what happened with PP (lower divisions/tiers). I'm sure he'll get sacked at some point if things don't change, hopefully, they will. However, there's no point at all in sacking him once fate is nailed on because he's not bad in League 1. If sacking is an option at all he should have gone before now imho.

On the Sheffield United comparison, they were in League 1 for a long time, it's going well for them now but they've been through a lot of rubbish. Just spoke to a Leeds supporter the other day, didn't realise they were in that league (one) for so long too. I'm not sure we should be expecting to be brilliant anytime soon if these other clubs have troubles turning things around.
Which is why I said that we should be emulating Sheffield United: not, like Leeds, by inhabiting the lower zones for years or decades (which is probably what will happen if we stick with Parky), but by taking a punt (now that it's almost inevitable we are going back down if we don't change) on some promising talent. I agree that Parkinson was fresh and an inspired choice a year ago, but he's outlived his usefulness. i know that sounds harsh and mercenary, but football managership is a harsh environment and it will be the club that suffers if we don't get mercenary.
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Re: Scary movie; The race to the bottom; Sunderland v Bolton 31/10/2017

Post by Armchair Wanderer » Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:53 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:39 pm
Which is why I said that we should be emulating Sheffield United: not, like Leeds, by inhabiting the lower zones for years or decades (which is probably what will happen if we stick with Parky), but by taking a punt (now that it's almost inevitable we are going back down if we don't change) on some promising talent. I agree that Parkinson was fresh and an inspired choice a year ago, but he's outlived his usefulness. i know that sounds harsh and mercenary, but football managership is a harsh environment and it will be the club that suffers if we don't get mercenary.
They (Sheffield) were in League 1 for 6 years was my point.
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Re: Scary movie; The race to the bottom; Sunderland v Bolton 31/10/2017

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:17 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:49 pm
It was a race to the bottom and by gaining just the draw from it we won the race. Instead of 22nd we remain 24th. I see absolutely no reason to believe this will change anytime soon. I also don't get why 'stability' and keeping Parkinson are any kind of priority - we should be like Sheffield United hunting for a gem of a manager from the lower divisions/tiers.
Not everything is about the manager. Wilder seems excellent so far. But so did Coyle's record (here and prior to here) 12 months into his reign.

I think chasing the "magic manager" has been shown, without doubt to be utter folly.

Parkinson is the best manager we can realistically expect to have right now, I'm firmly 100% of that view. I think he gets where we are and understands what it takes. The situation we're in is IMHO far from being primarily because of the manager we have. In fact I'm 100% certain of that.

I'll say that when or if the financial situation changes it might be time to review it. Wilder was interviewed here and turned us down. Until we sort the wider issues and can look to be more ambitious in our managerial appointment I'd stick 100% behind Parky. When/if we change it has to be a long term progression thing.

Short termism, chopping and changing costs money we don't have and in the majority of cases has left clubs no better off (just with less money). Did changing managers in the premiership to stay up a couple of times in the end do the club good? No. In the end it made everything worse.

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Re: Scary movie; The race to the bottom; Sunderland v Bolton 31/10/2017

Post by bristol_Wanderer3 » Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:05 pm

Highlights:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwb0x-3i5x8

I can't figure out why we got cut open so easily for their first two goals. N'Dong wasn't closed down, runners not tracked. Maybe mental tiredness? There was another similar attack where they cut us open that was shown on Sky Sports that isn't in these highlights too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSV3F3Xod8s

Great interview with Henry here. He speaks really well, looks a great character, Gives me hope we can get out of this. If we do he will go down as one of our best signings for a long while.

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Re: Scary movie; The race to the bottom; Sunderland v Bolton 31/10/2017

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:52 pm

Wilder is on a f*cking astonishing run.
2015/16: Northampton, D4 champs, 99pts
2016/17: Blades, D3 champs, 100pts
2017/18: Blades - before last night, D2 leaders, on course for 99pts

Not many of those knocking about.

As for being interviewed by us - I’m sure he was, but I’m also sure he wanted the Blades job, considering he supports the team and has the club crest as a tattoo.

To repeat: I’m not suggesting we sack Parky, who has done a good job under horrible circumstances. But if his position were to become untenable, I wouldn’t mind Grayson, who has performed well in both these divisions. PP has a lot to prove at this level, and I genuinely hope he starts to do so soon.

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Re: Scary movie; The race to the bottom; Sunderland v Bolton 31/10/2017

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:49 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:52 pm
Wilder is on a f*cking astonishing run.
2015/16: Northampton, D4 champs, 99pts
2016/17: Blades, D3 champs, 100pts
2017/18: Blades - before last night, D2 leaders, on course for 99pts

Not many of those knocking about.

As for being interviewed by us - I’m sure he was, but I’m also sure he wanted the Blades job, considering he supports the team and has the club crest as a tattoo.

To repeat: I’m not suggesting we sack Parky, who has done a good job under horrible circumstances. But if his position were to become untenable, I wouldn’t mind Grayson, who has performed well in both these divisions. PP has a lot to prove at this level, and I genuinely hope he starts to do so soon.
Whereas I'm suggesting that we do sack Parky and grab Grayson before some other bugger does...
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Re: Scary movie; The race to the bottom; Sunderland v Bolton 31/10/2017

Post by TANGODANCER » Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:03 pm

Second and third goals made us look naive. Second they just walked through us and the third was worthy of Moss Bank. Sort of undid all the hard work with juvenile stuff. First goal was a cracking through ball, but should it have got through at all? One er, unfriendly report said Sammis' goal bumped its way along the ground and the keeper should have had it. :shock:
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Re: Scary movie; The race to the bottom; Sunderland v Bolton 31/10/2017

Post by Nicko58 » Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:39 pm

One of the things that might need to be considered is how attractive a proposition we are.

Surely any promising, talented manager from the lower leagues would run a mile from our basket case of a football club?
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Re: Scary movie; The race to the bottom; Sunderland v Bolton 31/10/2017

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:49 pm

Nicko58 wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:39 pm
One of the things that might need to be considered is how attractive a proposition we are.

Surely any promising, talented manager from the lower leagues would run a mile from our basket case of a football club?
As indeed Wilder did (according to BWFCi)
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Re: Scary movie; The race to the bottom; Sunderland v Bolton 31/10/2017

Post by Hoboh » Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:41 am

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:56 am
Happy with a point and the unbeaten run to continue. 3 weeks ago I'd written this season off so whilst I think we're still going down at least we're competing Hopefully the January transfer window will give us further chances.
Sunderland remind me of us post Dougie. A new manager might keep them up this season but they're In a downward spiral now. Their Darren Pratley is Jack Rodwell. 60k a week and not even in the first team
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Re: Scary movie; The race to the bottom; Sunderland v Bolton 31/10/2017

Post by Harry Genshaw » Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:16 am

Phil and Ken worked wonders in the last January transfer window without a bean. I'll trust them to do well again in this one. Whether it will be enough. ..
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Re: Scary movie; The race to the bottom; Sunderland v Bolton 31/10/2017

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:39 am

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:49 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:52 pm
Wilder is on a f*cking astonishing run.
2015/16: Northampton, D4 champs, 99pts
2016/17: Blades, D3 champs, 100pts
2017/18: Blades - before last night, D2 leaders, on course for 99pts

Not many of those knocking about.

As for being interviewed by us - I’m sure he was, but I’m also sure he wanted the Blades job, considering he supports the team and has the club crest as a tattoo.

To repeat: I’m not suggesting we sack Parky, who has done a good job under horrible circumstances. But if his position were to become untenable, I wouldn’t mind Grayson, who has performed well in both these divisions. PP has a lot to prove at this level, and I genuinely hope he starts to do so soon.
Whereas I'm suggesting that we do sack Parky and grab Grayson before some other bugger does...
I'm not sure of the logic behind Grayson. He's just been sacked by a club with considerably more resources than we have. They are 2 points better off than us. Sure Sunderland is a basket case club, but if he couldn't hack it there, I don't see why he'll come here and do better. We're hardly rich and stable. I also don't think he is any better than Parky. I think he'd do exactly the same things, but might risk not getting the best out of players like Ameobi who it is clear, Parky has the knack of maximising - many other managers haven't succeeded in that.

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Re: Scary movie; The race to the bottom; Sunderland v Bolton 31/10/2017

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:52 am

Sunderland’s much more pressure than here. Such different expectations that they’re barely comparable. Can you imagine them (club and, crucially, fans) keeping faith in a manager after the sort of start we had this season? Or for that matter when Freedman also broke records for shitness?

I guess the logic behind Grayson is that he’s helped teams establish themselves in the second tier, which is more than Parky’s managed (so far, hopefully). And if he couldn’t keep us up, he also knows the way back up.

Took Blackpool up to T2 (playoffs) in 2007, finished 19th in 2008. Went to Leeds: T3 playoffs 2009, promoted (runners up) 2010, 7th in T2 2011, sacked early 2012 (just outside playoffs). Immediately took Huddersfield up from T3 via playoffs, sacked February 2013 (in 18th place, seven points above the drop zone). Immediately to T3 Preston, kept them up 2013, play off semis 2014, up via playoffs 2015, 11th 2016, 11th 2017.

Again: personally I don’t think we should sack Parky right now. Nor do I think he should get a free pass. I take your point about Ameobi and PP clearly inspires the players, but obviously Grayson has got skills too - it’s not like he chequebooked his way to promotion at four different clubs - and if I’m being honest I am beginning to doubt PP has the smarts to keep us up. Some may say that’s fine under the circumstances, but I’m not so sure.

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Re: Scary movie; The race to the bottom; Sunderland v Bolton 31/10/2017

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:20 am

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:52 am
Sunderland’s much more pressure than here. Such different expectations that they’re barely comparable. Can you imagine them (club and, crucially, fans) keeping faith in a manager after the sort of start we had this season? Or for that matter when Freedman also broke records for shitness?

I guess the logic behind Grayson is that he’s helped teams establish themselves in the second tier, which is more than Parky’s managed (so far, hopefully). And if he couldn’t keep us up, he also knows the way back up.

Took Blackpool up to T2 (playoffs) in 2007, finished 19th in 2008. Went to Leeds: T3 playoffs 2009, promoted (runners up) 2010, 7th in T2 2011, sacked early 2012 (just outside playoffs). Immediately took Huddersfield up from T3 via playoffs, sacked February 2013 (in 18th place, seven points above the drop zone). Immediately to T3 Preston, kept them up 2013, play off semis 2014, up via playoffs 2015, 11th 2016, 11th 2017.

Again: personally I don’t think we should sack Parky right now. Nor do I think he should get a free pass. I take your point about Ameobi and PP clearly inspires the players, but obviously Grayson has got skills too - it’s not like he chequebooked his way to promotion at four different clubs - and if I’m being honest I am beginning to doubt PP has the smarts to keep us up. Some may say that’s fine under the circumstances, but I’m not so sure.
Entirely disagree. Grayson like Parky is a solid manager. I cannot for one second see him transforming us. I think Parky is doing as much as anyone could. Our deficiencies aren't IMHO tactical, aren't players not playing for him.

If there is one thing I'd critique him on it would be failing to bring in a "Henry" over the summer. No new man changes that now.

Grayson is fine. But I'd certainly be in no rush to appoint him.

Also think that whilst the expectation is different at Sunderland it isn't too far off here. We're expected to survive after the restrictions imposed that effectively limited us to a summer of mid table league one recruitment. Given Sunderland have (considerably) more resources at their disposal, their relative performance is far, far below ours thus far.

Parky is generally picking the right team and system, setting us up well and seems to have the players behind him. I fail to see the glaring issue a new manager solves. I fail to see what huge improvements they make. Thankfully Ken seems relatively sensible on this issue at least. IMO Parky is here this season regardless. And I've seen little to suggest otherwise. If KA wanted a change he had the best excuse to make one after Villa.

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Re: Scary movie; The race to the bottom; Sunderland v Bolton 31/10/2017

Post by TANGODANCER » Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:22 am

Would Jose Maurinho do any better with our current squad than Parky? A manager has to get the best out of what he has at his disposal and managers rarely get sacked based on actual results ( as in not quite getting promoted, not quite winning cups etc), but many times due to pressure from divine -right minded fans who only give credit when their team are kept up from relegation. The whole manager thing has become, just like the game, all about brass. Are we tending to forget we're still walking along a razor blade financially and a bit fortunate to have the players we do have? Are we bein g a bit less than respectful to the other teams in this league in thinking we have a right to beat them? To be kicking Parky towards the door right now seems less than sensible to me. If we get demoted I can understand the need for change, but hopefully that won't happen and the change will be in our fortunes. I know some won't agree, but that's football... :wink:
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Re: Scary movie; The race to the bottom; Sunderland v Bolton 31/10/2017

Post by Hoboh » Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:42 am

Looks like, unfortunately, Parky's streaky run this year is full of draws!

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Re: Scary movie; The race to the bottom; Sunderland v Bolton 31/10/2017

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:26 pm

Not sure Sunderland have that much more resource, at least as far as Grayson was concerned. He lost his goalkeeper and main striker for £30m and was given £1m to spend. He’s also dealing with a squad which has players bought by about five different managers. I’ll warrant that it hasn’t gone well but I don’t think it’s really his fault.

Speaking of fault, if you think Parky’s tactics and man-management are spot-on, I can only assume you think we’re bottom of the league because of the relative weakness of our squad. This is a convenient Andranik argument, one which cannot be disproven. There’s a lot of that about in theoretical discussions of potential management changes, but that’s one of the biggest exonerations I’ve ever seen a manager given: that whatever happens this season, it’s not his fault Because Embargo. Evidently it’s a huge huge part of our problems, but it’s not the embargo that’s dropped six points in three games by dropping four leads.

Again: I wouldn’t sack Parky, yet, and I wouldn’t back Grayson to lead these embargo freebies to Champions League domination. But what if he had enough about him to keep them up (another big unprovable hypothesis)? Enough to make us that 5% better?

As you say, it’s currently moot - Ken isn’t budging, although I think he’ll throw anyone under the bus to protect himself. January is going to be fascinating.

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ok Re: Scary movie; The race to the bottom; Sunderland v Bolton 31/10/2017

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:36 pm

OK. I'll take a leaf out of Wittgenstein's book 'Tractatus'.
1. We should have beaten Sunderland.
1.1 If we can't beat our closest/shittest rival, who can we expect to beat.
1.2 ok, so we were away, but 1.1 still applies.
2. If we can't beat rivals we are going down.
3. If we don't want to go down we need to do something about it.
3.1 through to 3.7 ( define things that could be done about it but won't because KA is chairman)
3.8 appoint a different manager.
3.8.1 yeh, yeh, KA hasn't got the money to appoint a new manager.
3.8.1.1 we're fecked.
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