Scary movie; The race to the bottom; Sunderland v Bolton 31/10/2017

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Re: Scary movie; The race to the bottom; Sunderland v Bolton 31/10/2017

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:55 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:26 pm
Not sure Sunderland have that much more resource, at least as far as Grayson was concerned. He lost his goalkeeper and main striker for £30m and was given £1m to spend. He’s also dealing with a squad which has players bought by about five different managers. I’ll warrant that it hasn’t gone well but I don’t think it’s really his fault.

Speaking of fault, if you think Parky’s tactics and man-management are spot-on, I can only assume you think we’re bottom of the league because of the relative weakness of our squad. This is a convenient Andranik argument, one which cannot be disproven. There’s a lot of that about in theoretical discussions of potential management changes, but that’s one of the biggest exonerations I’ve ever seen a manager given: that whatever happens this season, it’s not his fault Because Embargo. Evidently it’s a huge huge part of our problems, but it’s not the embargo that’s dropped six points in three games by dropping four leads.

Again: I wouldn’t sack Parky, yet, and I wouldn’t back Grayson to lead these embargo freebies to Champions League domination. But what if he had enough about him to keep them up (another big unprovable hypothesis)? Enough to make us that 5% better?

As you say, it’s currently moot - Ken isn’t budging, although I think he’ll throw anyone under the bus to protect himself. January is going to be fascinating.
I think likelihood is that we'd be worse off under Grayson as Parky knows these players and has generally signed most of them in some form.

My view is very simply that we're not in many ways stronger than last time we were in this league. Looking through the spine of the team I can't really see significant improvement. That squad was bottom of the league. And even if you argue we are in some small ways better player wise, the league's overall quality has without doubt shifted up a gear.

Our strongest 11 is showing it can compete but beyond that we look very light. Not sure how Grayson improves upon that. And as I say, Parky seems to be able to get the best out of these players.

There are clearly times when a manager should be sacked (Owen Coyle in November after a home defeat to Aston Villa springs to mind). Situations where it is clear that the manager is entirely out of his depth in several areas. And ones where there are more experienced and better suited options that could be attracted.

For me this isn't one of those times.

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Re: Scary movie; The race to the bottom; Sunderland v Bolton 31/10/2017

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:22 pm

Yep, I broadly take your point. Just a couple of things: one a clarification, one a question.
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:55 pm
Parky knows these players and has generally signed most of them in some form.
He’s signed or re-signed every single member of the squad except Amos and Pratley. This is perhaps not his ideal squad (Because Embargo), but it is definitely his squad.
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:55 pm
Our strongest 11 is showing it can compete but beyond that we look very light. Not sure how Grayson improves upon that. And as I say, Parky seems to be able to get the best out of these players.
This is where we may differ. You think that Grayson, and for all I know any coach in world football, couldn’t get more out of this squad. I recognise your right to think that, but I’m not so sure. Nor am I saying Grayson is The Answer, nor can I possibly know whether he would improve us. But the difference between you and I is that I think he (or someone else) *might*, and at a given point that potential uplift may be worth the potential damage of change. I don’t think that time is yet (unlike LLS, among others), but I think it might come. You seem to think it won’t, no matter what happens. Reductio ad absurdum, but would you still think that if we lost every remaining game 7-0? Or would you need something to show that he’s not maximising the resources available?

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Re: Scary movie; The race to the bottom; Sunderland v Bolton 31/10/2017

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:49 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:22 pm
Yep, I broadly take your point. Just a couple of things: one a clarification, one a question.
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:55 pm
Parky knows these players and has generally signed most of them in some form.
He’s signed or re-signed every single member of the squad except Amos and Pratley. This is perhaps not his ideal squad (Because Embargo), but it is definitely his squad.
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:55 pm
Our strongest 11 is showing it can compete but beyond that we look very light. Not sure how Grayson improves upon that. And as I say, Parky seems to be able to get the best out of these players.
This is where we may differ. You think that Grayson, and for all I know any coach in world football, couldn’t get more out of this squad. I recognise your right to think that, but I’m not so sure. Nor am I saying Grayson is The Answer, nor can I possibly know whether he would improve us. But the difference between you and I is that I think he (or someone else) *might*, and at a given point that potential uplift may be worth the potential damage of change. I don’t think that time is yet (unlike LLS, among others), but I think it might come. You seem to think it won’t, no matter what happens. Reductio ad absurdum, but would you still think that if we lost every remaining game 7-0? Or would you need something to show that he’s not maximising the resources available?
Its contextual. I have a feel for when changing the manager is right. And I strongly feel right now it isn't. I know that isn't helpful in anyway - but its where I'm at. I'm not going to convince those who want him out, or may in the future want him out of that.

But to add to it, another manager may improve things just enough to stay up. Then in the summer overhaul the squad, things go wrong and we're back down again. That is what happened to us as we chopped and changed our way from Lee to Lennon. Short term improvement but long term damaging decline. Even if you argue managerial changes didn't affect that they sure as hell didn't improve it, and along the way cost a lot of money in a variety of ways.

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Re: Scary movie; The race to the bottom; Sunderland v Bolton 31/10/2017

Post by bristol_Wanderer3 » Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:59 pm

I am very much a Parky inner just now, but I don't like the long term stability combined with relegation back to L1 argument. We need to make every effort to stay up, because imho we will be in a right old mess as a club if we go back down, and it will be very hard to mount another promotion campaign from L1 no matter who would be in charge.

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Re: Scary movie; The race to the bottom; Sunderland v Bolton 31/10/2017

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:20 pm

bristol_Wanderer3 wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:59 pm
I am very much a Parky inner just now, but I don't like the long term stability combined with relegation back to L1 argument. We need to make every effort to stay up, because imho we will be in a right old mess as a club if we go back down, and it will be very hard to mount another promotion campaign from L1 no matter who would be in charge.
Apart from the being a Parky inner bit, that's exactly where I am.
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Re: Scary movie; The race to the bottom; Sunderland v Bolton 31/10/2017

Post by officer_dibble » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:04 pm


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Re: Scary movie; The race to the bottom; Sunderland v Bolton 31/10/2017

Post by Bruce Rioja » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:51 pm

officer_dibble wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:04 pm
http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/nor ... e-13993996

This has to go somewhere.
:lol:

Saw the picture of him this morning. There's no way he wasn't curling one out.

He must've been absolutely hammered.
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Re: Scary movie; The race to the bottom; Sunderland v Bolton 31/10/2017

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:35 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:51 pm
officer_dibble wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:04 pm
http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/nor ... e-13993996

This has to go somewhere.
:lol:

Saw the picture of him this morning. There's no way he wasn't curling one out.

A very prophetic thread title. In hindsight it should of been "the Race Out of the Bottom" :lol:
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Re: Scary movie; The race to the bottom; Sunderland v Bolton 31/10/2017

Post by bristol_Wanderer3 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:11 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:35 pm
Bruce Rioja wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:51 pm
officer_dibble wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:04 pm
http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/nor ... e-13993996

This has to go somewhere.
:lol:

Saw the picture of him this morning. There's no way he wasn't curling one out.

A very prophetic thread title. In hindsight it should of been "the Race Out of the Bottom" :lol:
I think I said in the thread somewhere that it was proving hard to remove the losing stench :lol:

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