A Valentines eve massacre, or a rewarding date with old friends? Cardiff V BWFC 13/2/2018

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A Valentines eve massacre, or a rewarding date with old friends? Cardiff V BWFC 13/2/2018

Post by bristol_Wanderer3 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:56 am

We are back on it tomorrow (Tuesday) when we play our re-arranged game, and our game in hand, at Cardiff.

This game is notable because it is an early opportunity to re-familiarize ourselves with Gary Madine. Not only is it Madine who has experienced the joys of playing for both clubs. but Liam Feeney and Danny Ward are also at Cardiff, whilst Noone, Andrew Taylor, Ameobi and ALF have all had spells at Cardiff.

Cardiff are enjoying a very good season under Neil Warnock. Warnock never misses the opportunity to be annoying, but you have to say he is a very good and underrated manager at this level. He took over at Cardiff last season when they were in the drop zone and steered them to a mid table finish, and then this season has continued the momentum and got them up to fourth, after being in the top two for much of the season. And, until the Madine signing, he hadn't spent a huge amount of money, with Ward costing £1.6m, and Callum Paterson costing £400,000 from Hearts. Astute free transfers such as goalkeeper Neil Etheridge (from Walsall) and winger Nathaniel Mendez-Laing (from Rochdale) have made big contributions, and Warnock is getting the best out of the likes of Kenneth Zohore, Sol Bamba, Joe Ralls and Junior Hoillet. They had a major blip over the Christmas period with four successive defeats, beginning with a 2-0 loss at the Macron, but since then have got things going again with two wins and two draws, including a 4-1 thumping of Leeds at Elland Road. They are very physical (even more so now with Madine) and aren't easy on the eye, and until Madine left were very similar to us in terms of style, with a much better defence.

For us it will be interesting to see how Parky manages the squad during a very busy period. This is the second of a stretch of five games in 14 days. The game on Saturday against Fulham was a very tough game physically for us with a number of our players looking very tired towards the end, so maybe Parky will freshen things up? Certainly it is hard to see the likes of Ameobi, Derik and Little being fully at it in each of these five games without a rest. ALF also might be given a start following his superb goal on Saturday, and Clough's apparent lack of confidence.

This will be an interesting game. Personally I am thinking and hoping that the adaptions that Parky has had to make since Madine left should make us a better side away from home. We will have more pace and sharpness to hit teams with on the break and the 3-5-2 with our current midfield can be very solid and hard to break down, and better equipped to deal with the pacy forwards most teams in this league have. The defence will have to be heroes but Cardiff 0-1 BWFC is my optimistic prediction :)

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Re: A Valentines eve massacre, or a rewarding date with old friends? Cardiff V BWFC 13/2/2018

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:25 pm

Be interesting to watch how Wheavers cope with the inevitable Ballon d'Or winner Gary Madine.

Also interesting, as you say, to see who he picks up front. Assuming it's gonna be more 352 than 343, we're now perming two from four (Sammy, Alf, Zach and Walker) – and in any combination thereof, we've got two genuine options who can come off the bench and change things up.

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Re: A Valentines eve massacre, or a rewarding date with old friends? Cardiff V BWFC 13/2/2018

Post by TANGODANCER » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:46 pm

Queston that occurs; Madine is best with high balls coming at him from the back; will Cardiff try to facilitate that, putting him up against three big lads: Wheater, Beevers and Dervite, or will they work the midfield and and go for wide ball crosses? I just hope that refs don't suddenly start doing Madine the free kick favours he didn't get against Bolton's opposition. For my money, he'll trry it on with his old mates and will have informed all our secret plans of mass destruction. :wink:
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Re: A Valentines eve massacre, or a rewarding date with old friends? Cardiff V BWFC 13/2/2018

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:47 pm

This idea that sans Madine we're suddenly a side full of pace...not sure I get it.

Ameobi can run with the ball but I'd not call him quick. In any event he would be playing as an alternative outlet even if Madine was still here.

Clough is sharp but hardly the lightning on the break type - and so far he's shown precious little in terms of running at teams with the ball.

The wing backs are quick and clearly the change of system allows them to push on further, though I doubt at Cardiff they're going to abandon the backline all that much in raids forward.

Le Fondre isn't quick. I'd back Madine to outrun him in a foot race, by a distance.

Walker clearly has pace but as yet hasn't had any real chance to make an impact and can't really see him starting tomorrow.

I actually think Madine as a loan striker was more threatening in behind defences than any of our options bar Walker. Ameobi and Clough both want to come short and pick the ball up and Le Fondre isn't the sort to really threaten defences in behind on the break at all other than over a few yards.

I think the Cardiff game is a gimme. We have nothing to lose so might as well go for it. The two after this are the real big tests and absolutely in the "must not lose category" and "must win at least one of them".

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Re: A Valentines eve massacre, or a rewarding date with old friends? Cardiff V BWFC 13/2/2018

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:51 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:46 pm
Queston that occurs; Madine is best with high balls coming at him from the back; will Cardiff try to facilitate that, putting him up against three big lads: Wheater, Beevers and Dervite, or will they work the midfield and and go for wide ball crosses? I just hope that refs don't suddenly start doing Madine the free kick favours he didn't get against Bolton's opposition. For my money, he'll trry it on with his old mates and will have informed all our secret plans of mass destruction. :wink:
Why worry about Madine? He's a rubbish big lump who we don't even need to bother marking according to the experts on here. He won't cause our back three any issues given we've the height back there and that's all he offers.

So don't think we need worry at all about him.

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Re: A Valentines eve massacre, or a rewarding date with old friends? Cardiff V BWFC 13/2/2018

Post by Dr Hotdog » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:52 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:47 pm
This idea that sans Madine we're suddenly a side full of pace...not sure I get it.

Ameobi can run with the ball but I'd not call him quick. In any event he would be playing as an alternative outlet even if Madine was still here.

Clough is sharp but hardly the lightning on the break type - and so far he's shown precious little in terms of running at teams with the ball.

The wing backs are quick and clearly the change of system allows them to push on further, though I doubt at Cardiff they're going to abandon the backline all that much in raids forward.

Le Fondre isn't quick. I'd back Madine to outrun him in a foot race, by a distance.

Walker clearly has pace but as yet hasn't had any real chance to make an impact and can't really see him starting tomorrow.

I actually think Madine as a loan striker was more threatening in behind defences than any of our options bar Walker. Ameobi and Clough both want to come short and pick the ball up and Le Fondre isn't the sort to really threaten defences in behind on the break at all other than over a few yards.

I think the Cardiff game is a gimme. We have nothing to lose so might as well go for it. The two after this are the real big tests and absolutely in the "must not lose category" and "must win at least one of them".
your boner for gaz madz has never been more glaring. put it away. cover it up. log off.

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Re: A Valentines eve massacre, or a rewarding date with old friends? Cardiff V BWFC 13/2/2018

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:03 pm

Dr Hotdog wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:52 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:47 pm
This idea that sans Madine we're suddenly a side full of pace...not sure I get it.

Ameobi can run with the ball but I'd not call him quick. In any event he would be playing as an alternative outlet even if Madine was still here.

Clough is sharp but hardly the lightning on the break type - and so far he's shown precious little in terms of running at teams with the ball.

The wing backs are quick and clearly the change of system allows them to push on further, though I doubt at Cardiff they're going to abandon the backline all that much in raids forward.

Le Fondre isn't quick. I'd back Madine to outrun him in a foot race, by a distance.

Walker clearly has pace but as yet hasn't had any real chance to make an impact and can't really see him starting tomorrow.

I actually think Madine as a loan striker was more threatening in behind defences than any of our options bar Walker. Ameobi and Clough both want to come short and pick the ball up and Le Fondre isn't the sort to really threaten defences in behind on the break at all other than over a few yards.

I think the Cardiff game is a gimme. We have nothing to lose so might as well go for it. The two after this are the real big tests and absolutely in the "must not lose category" and "must win at least one of them".
your boner for gaz madz has never been more glaring. put it away. cover it up. log off.
Seriously. I don't think it would even be close over a distance of more than say 10M. Madine is deceptively quick. Not lighting quick. But he could get about and cover ground.

Le Fondre is undoubtedly sharp over a few yards and the like. Sure. But I know which one I'd back to cover the width of the pitch fastest.

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Re: A Valentines eve massacre, or a rewarding date with old friends? Cardiff V BWFC 13/2/2018

Post by boltonboris » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:14 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:47 pm
Le Fondre isn't quick. I'd back Madine to outrun him in a foot race, by a distance.
Le Fondre's quickest of the lot - Especially if we're looking at 10 yard bursts
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Re: A Valentines eve massacre, or a rewarding date with old friends? Cardiff V BWFC 13/2/2018

Post by TANGODANCER » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:02 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:51 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:46 pm
Queston that occurs; Madine is best with high balls coming at him from the back; will Cardiff try to facilitate that, putting him up against three big lads: Wheater, Beevers and Dervite, or will they work the midfield and and go for wide ball crosses? I just hope that refs don't suddenly start doing Madine the free kick favours he didn't get against Bolton's opposition. For my money, he'll trry it on with his old mates and will have informed all our secret plans of mass destruction. :wink:
Why worry about Madine? He's a rubbish big lump who we don't even need to bother marking according to the experts on here. He won't cause our back three any issues given we've the height back there and that's all he offers. So don't think we need worry at all about him.
Do leave off Insaney. Madine plays for Cardiff, we support Bolton. I know you'd like him to score a hattrick against us just to prove a point, but it won't happen. Get a grip man.
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Re: A Valentines eve massacre, or a rewarding date with old friends? Cardiff V BWFC 13/2/2018

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:37 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:02 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:51 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:46 pm
Queston that occurs; Madine is best with high balls coming at him from the back; will Cardiff try to facilitate that, putting him up against three big lads: Wheater, Beevers and Dervite, or will they work the midfield and and go for wide ball crosses? I just hope that refs don't suddenly start doing Madine the free kick favours he didn't get against Bolton's opposition. For my money, he'll trry it on with his old mates and will have informed all our secret plans of mass destruction. :wink:
Why worry about Madine? He's a rubbish big lump who we don't even need to bother marking according to the experts on here. He won't cause our back three any issues given we've the height back there and that's all he offers. So don't think we need worry at all about him.
Do leave off Insaney. Madine plays for Cardiff, we support Bolton. I know you'd like him to score a hattrick against us just to prove a point, but it won't happen. Get a grip man.
Eh? If he's as rubbish as they say, we don't need to worry about him do we?

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Re: A Valentines eve massacre, or a rewarding date with old friends? Cardiff V BWFC 13/2/2018

Post by TANGODANCER » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:49 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:37 pm
Eh? If he's as rubbish as they say, we don't need to worry about him do we?
I don't even see anybody saying Madine is/was rubbish? What exactly are you trying to prove mate? He was good, we liked him and nobody wanted him to leave, but the reward was a very good and needed move for the club's financial situation and a bit of stablity.. There was no choice. Madine also had a team of lads around him all trying and working for the club; they still are and he wasn't a one man saviour. Like I said, he's now opposition and good luck to him. You're preaching to the converted.
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Re: A Valentines eve massacre, or a rewarding date with old friends? Cardiff V BWFC 13/2/2018

Post by Prufrock » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:03 pm

No-one was saying he was rubbish, not even Bruce I don't think. Just not everyone was, or is, as convinced as you that he's god's fecking gift to strikers.

You can think someone is a good player without clodding yourself off a cliff when they leave.
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Re: A Valentines eve massacre, or a rewarding date with old friends? Cardiff V BWFC 13/2/2018

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:07 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:03 pm
No-one was saying he was rubbish, not even Bruce I don't think. Just not everyone was, or is, as convinced as you that he's god's fecking gift to strikers.

You can think someone is a good player without clodding yourself off a cliff when they leave.
I never said that either. I said he was our best goalscorer and attacking threat and critical to how we played. I think that was very evident. Most of our players have said the same.

We're hoping to survive in a different way now. But the fact is, I don't think anyone would think we have a better chance now than we did with him here. Though I suspect some will try and make a case....

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Re: A Valentines eve massacre, or a rewarding date with old friends? Cardiff V BWFC 13/2/2018

Post by boltonboris » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:24 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:46 pm
Queston that occurs; Madine is best with high balls coming at him from the back; will Cardiff try to facilitate that, putting him up against three big lads: Wheater, Beevers and Dervite, or will they work the midfield and and go for wide ball crosses? I just hope that refs don't suddenly start doing Madine the free kick favours he didn't get against Bolton's opposition. For my money, he'll trry it on with his old mates and will have informed all our secret plans of mass destruction. :wink:
He won more freekicks than he gave away! He gets man-handled because he's a handful.

We need to be aware of that. He's also got a good knack of finding space in the box (confidence? Coaching?) and they've got some exceptionally quick wide men, who we'll need to do a job against
"I've got the ball now. It's a bit worn, but I've got it"

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Re: A Valentines eve massacre, or a rewarding date with old friends? Cardiff V BWFC 13/2/2018

Post by boltonboris » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:24 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:07 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:03 pm
No-one was saying he was rubbish, not even Bruce I don't think. Just not everyone was, or is, as convinced as you that he's god's fecking gift to strikers.

You can think someone is a good player without clodding yourself off a cliff when they leave.
I never said that either. I said he was our best goalscorer and attacking threat and critical to how we played. I think that was very evident. Most of our players have said the same.

We're hoping to survive in a different way now. But the fact is, I don't think anyone would think we have a better chance now than we did with him here. Though I suspect some will try and make a case....
We'll we're on 2 points per game without him ;-)
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Re: A Valentines eve massacre, or a rewarding date with old friends? Cardiff V BWFC 13/2/2018

Post by bristol_Wanderer3 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:40 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:07 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:03 pm
No-one was saying he was rubbish, not even Bruce I don't think. Just not everyone was, or is, as convinced as you that he's god's fecking gift to strikers.

You can think someone is a good player without clodding yourself off a cliff when they leave.
I never said that either. I said he was our best goalscorer and attacking threat and critical to how we played. I think that was very evident. Most of our players have said the same.

We're hoping to survive in a different way now. But the fact is, I don't think anyone would think we have a better chance now than we did with him here. Though I suspect some will try and make a case....
I will wait until after these couple of away games, but I can definitely see the potential for a case being made.

It would go something along the lines of:

1.) The goals had dried up before Madine left. Our team wasn't creating chances and only Madine ever looked like scoring.
2.) There was no effective back up for Madine in that set up. He had played every game this season and often the full 90 minutes. There was every chance of fatigue, or loss of form, or injury, or suspension or even a dodgy night out occurring at some point.
3.) Away from home Beevers and Wheater have been very vulnerable to any kind of quality or pace from the opposition's attack. This might be remedied somewhat by three at the back.
4.) Away from home we have struggled to score goals. 9 goals in 14 games. And three of those were at Sunderland. We have some away games coming up that are winnable and drawable. In fact that applies to pretty much all of them, maybe with the exception of Derby. So the change we have made since Madine left can't do any harm. And the Bristol City goal showed we can score on the counter attack now. Not so much that we actually scored, but by the time Ameobi had scored, both Clough and Robinson had ran quickly enough to get themselves into positions to score also. We wouldn't have got into that position with the Madine led formation.

All that being said, I agree Madine was a loss, and had developed into a decent striker for which both he and Parky deserve huge credit. But personally, although it could go either way, I can see the potential for a rosy picture without him.

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Re: A Valentines eve massacre, or a rewarding date with old friends? Cardiff V BWFC 13/2/2018

Post by TANGODANCER » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:53 pm

Keeping in mind that Parky will have done his homework on our behalf, what, if anything can we take from our recent encounter with Cardiff; who's likely to cause us trouble and are there any obvious loopholes to explore? Not as daft a question as it may sound, because the Zanussi man will no doubt be asking the same questions. Cardiff won't be quite as certain of us as they may have been before the change of point man.
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Re: A Valentines eve massacre, or a rewarding date with old friends? Cardiff V BWFC 13/2/2018

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:56 am

bristol_Wanderer3 wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:40 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:07 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:03 pm
No-one was saying he was rubbish, not even Bruce I don't think. Just not everyone was, or is, as convinced as you that he's god's fecking gift to strikers.

You can think someone is a good player without clodding yourself off a cliff when they leave.
I never said that either. I said he was our best goalscorer and attacking threat and critical to how we played. I think that was very evident. Most of our players have said the same.

We're hoping to survive in a different way now. But the fact is, I don't think anyone would think we have a better chance now than we did with him here. Though I suspect some will try and make a case....
I will wait until after these couple of away games, but I can definitely see the potential for a case being made.

It would go something along the lines of:

1.) The goals had dried up before Madine left. Our team wasn't creating chances and only Madine ever looked like scoring.
2.) There was no effective back up for Madine in that set up. He had played every game this season and often the full 90 minutes. There was every chance of fatigue, or loss of form, or injury, or suspension or even a dodgy night out occurring at some point.
3.) Away from home Beevers and Wheater have been very vulnerable to any kind of quality or pace from the opposition's attack. This might be remedied somewhat by three at the back.
4.) Away from home we have struggled to score goals. 9 goals in 14 games. And three of those were at Sunderland. We have some away games coming up that are winnable and drawable. In fact that applies to pretty much all of them, maybe with the exception of Derby. So the change we have made since Madine left can't do any harm. And the Bristol City goal showed we can score on the counter attack now. Not so much that we actually scored, but by the time Ameobi had scored, both Clough and Robinson had ran quickly enough to get themselves into positions to score also. We wouldn't have got into that position with the Madine led formation.

All that being said, I agree Madine was a loss, and had developed into a decent striker for which both he and Parky deserve huge credit. But personally, although it could go either way, I can see the potential for a rosy picture without him.
1) We're hardly creating chances without him and our two goals have been solo individual efforts that simply won't happen every week.
2) Agreed.
3) For me 3 at the back is MORE vulnerable to pace than a back 4 given the space down the channels.
4) I think that is debatable and time will tell on it.

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Re: A Valentines eve massacre, or a rewarding date with old friends? Cardiff V BWFC 13/2/2018

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Iles hinting that he expects Wilbraham to start tonight as Parkinson has commented that Cardiff bully non-physical sides out of games and Iles expects a change up front to reflect that.

Yippee!

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Re: A Valentines eve massacre, or a rewarding date with old friends? Cardiff V BWFC 13/2/2018

Post by Harry Genshaw » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:34 pm

I thought Flanagan might get a run tonight. Little has ran himself into the ground lately and resting him for Saturday could make sense
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